Having the Holy Spirit, does that mean I am saved?

zoidar

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What is your understanding? I'm not talking here about enduring to the end, but are we saved as long as we have the Holy Spirit? So please don't make this into a OSAS debate. God bless!

Romans 8:9
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."


Ok, being in the Spirit means you have the Holy Spirit and Romans 8:9 says if you don't have the Holy Spirit you aren't saved, but it doesn't say that if you have the Holy Spirit you are. On the contrary reading Romans 8:12-13 it seems having the Spirit is not equal with being saved if we not live by the Spirit.

"So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
 

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You're using "saved" past tense. If we are still in this life, we are not yet "saved" in the way we will be when (hopefully) God speaks to each of us saying, "well done, good and faithful servant".

To "have the Holy Spirit" - would mean the grace of God is at work within a person. God wants to save people. So if we cooperate with that grace, we are being saved. We are on the path to salvation, yes. God does not abandon us. But we can abandon Him, or even refuse to cooperate and choose our selfish desires (whatever those may be) instead during life. What that might mean when we are judged could be a problem.

It's difficult to have such a discussion without the possibility of "loss of salvation" coming up, if one believes salvation to be a moment in time event that is already accomplished. We understand conversion is necessary, yes. But that is not the moment of judgement fulfilled.

But we must remember that God does desire to save people and will do so whenever He can, working patiently with each of us in our particular way.
 
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Neogaia777

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What is your understanding? I'm not talking here about enduring to the end, but are we saved as long as we have the Holy Spirit? So please don't make this into a OSAS debate. God bless!

Romans 8:9
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."


Ok, being in the Spirit means you have the Holy Spirit and Romans 8:9 says if you don't have the Holy Spirit you aren't saved, but it doesn't say that if you have the Holy Spirit you are. On the contrary reading Romans 8:12-13 it seems having the Spirit is not equal with being saved if we not live by the Spirit.

"So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
He can use some, ones who "will not live by the Spirit", (or don't practice what they preach, or are so only in word but not in deed, or "whatever"), Anyway, God can use those who will not live by the Spirit and the things of the Spirit... God can use and do however/whatever he wishes to his own agenda and does not have to share that with us...

God Bless!
 
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zoidar

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You're using "saved" past tense. If we are still in this life, we are not yet "saved" in the way we will be when (hopefully) God speaks to each of us saying, "well done, good and faithful servant".

To "have the Holy Spirit" - would mean the grace of God is at work within a person. God wants to save people. So if we cooperate with that grace, we are being saved. We are on the path to salvation, yes. God does not abandon us. But we can abandon Him, or even refuse to cooperate and choose our selfish desires (whatever those may be) instead during life. What that might mean when we are judged could be a problem.

It's difficult to have such a discussion without the possibility of "loss of salvation" coming up, if one believes salvation to be a moment in time event that is already accomplished. We understand conversion is necessary, yes. But that is not the moment of judgement fulfilled.

But we must remember that God does desire to save people and will do so whenever He can, working patiently with each of us in our particular way.

Your explaining was clear. But Paul use the word "saved" many times in passed tense.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Your explaining was clear. But Paul use the word "saved" many times in passed tense.
Yes. He also says those who are being saved sometimes, iirc. (If not him, I know it's in the Epistles in places.)

We DO have a point of conversion. But that's not the end of our path as Christians. We are meant to pursue Christ, be transformed from glory to glory, run the race, and so on. If we stop in the middle of the race ... the Holy Spirit does not guarantee He will drag us to the finish line. (He might though. God might also take us at a point if He knows it's our only chance to be saved. But He might also allow apostasy. It's not a thing we want to test Him on ... though I doubt any sincere Christian would.)

I'm not criticizing your use of language, btw. As you said, it's present in Scripture. Im only commenting on how it can affect our understanding in relation to your question, if we understand those passages without the context of other passages as well.

Forgive me if you felt criticized.
 
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paul1149

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if you are living according to the flesh, you must die;
I would suggest you give 1 John a careful read. It goes into this murky area in an extended way from a number of directions. The problem is often that we try to do a static analysis of the situation - am I saved, or not? Can one lose salvation, or not? - rather than accepting what's on our plate and, exercising faith in the Lord, getting on with the program. Concentrating on the former leads to "analysis paralysis", while the latter leads to actual progress. "And all who have this hope purify themselves." "Let all who call on the name of the Lord depart from iniquity."
 
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dreadnought

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What is your understanding? I'm not talking here about enduring to the end, but are we saved as long as we have the Holy Spirit? So please don't make this into a OSAS debate. God bless!

Romans 8:9
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."


Ok, being in the Spirit means you have the Holy Spirit and Romans 8:9 says if you don't have the Holy Spirit you aren't saved, but it doesn't say that if you have the Holy Spirit you are. On the contrary reading Romans 8:12-13 it seems having the Spirit is not equal with being saved if we not live by the Spirit.

"So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
The best way to stay out of trouble is to obey the Lord's commandments.
 
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bcbsr

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On the contrary reading Romans 8:12-13 it seems having the Spirit is not equal with being saved if we not live by the Spirit.

"So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

I don't quite read Rom 8:13 in the same sense as you do. He's not saying that salvation is contingent upon your ongoing performance, which would be salvation by works. Rather an identifying mark of one having the Spirit is that they are putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Notice the verses which follow:

"because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, <"Abba,> Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs— heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." Rom 8:14-17

So if a person has the Holy Spirit, he is a child of God and as such behaves characteristically as such. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10. Behavior is one way the Spirit helps to identify ourselves as children of God or not.

So "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." Gal 5:24 due to the nature of regeneration.

And notice Paul's final point in Romans 8, Eternal Security. Which could not be the case if salvation were by works.

And about being born of God, is not a matter of effort or works, or even one's will. "to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." John 1:12,13 Thus one could not say, as some may, that one can have the Spirit, but then being born of God is a function of one's efforts or performance.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The gift of the Holy Spirit is attached to Baptism (Acts of the Apostles 2:38), and it is the Spirit in us by which we can call out "Abba! Father!" because the Spirit bears witness that we are children of God (Romans 8:15-16).

Yes, that we have received the Holy Spirit is an integral part of our salvation, we can say that we have been saved because of God's word and promises, because the promise of the Gospel, because He has given us faith, given us the Holy Spirit, and all that He has said. So we can be confident that God's word is true, we have been saved--and we are at present being saved. These things are also the evidence of our future salvation (Romans 8:9-11, Romans 6:5). That He who began a good work will continue that work until the day of the Lord Jesus (Philippians 1:6).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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zoidar

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Yes. He also says those who are being saved sometimes, iirc. (If not him, I know it's in the Epistles in places.)

We DO have a point of conversion. But that's not the end of our path as Christians. We are meant to pursue Christ, be transformed from glory to glory, run the race, and so on. If we stop in the middle of the race ... the Holy Spirit does not guarantee He will drag us to the finish line. (He might though. God might also take us at a point if He knows it's our only chance to be saved. But He might also allow apostasy. It's not a thing we want to test Him on ... though I doubt any sincere Christian would.)

I'm not criticizing your use of language, btw. As you said, it's present in Scripture. Im only commenting on how it can affect our understanding in relation to your question, if we understand those passages without the context of other passages as well.

Forgive me if you felt criticized.

I didn't feel criticized, no worries.
 
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zoidar

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I don't quite read Rom 8:13 in the same sense as you do. He's not saying that salvation is contingent upon your ongoing performance, which would be salvation by works. Rather an identifying mark of one having the Spirit is that they are putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Notice the verses which follow:

"because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, <"Abba,> Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs— heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." Rom 8:14-17

So if a person has the Holy Spirit, he is a child of God and as such behaves characteristically as such. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10. Behavior is one way the Spirit helps to identify ourselves as children of God or not.

So "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." Gal 5:24 due to the nature of regeneration.

And notice Paul's final point in Romans 8, Eternal Security. Which could not be the case if salvation were by works.

And about being born of God, is not a matter of effort or works, or even one's will. "to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." John 1:12,13 Thus one could not say, as some may, that one can have the Spirit, but then being born of God is a function of one's efforts or performance.

I have a problem with this and that is, I was saved 8 years ago. Somewhere down the line I started living in sin, not proud to say I lived in a sexual relationship outside marriage for about a year. So having the Holy Spirit didn't kept me away from this sin. You can live in pretty bad sins and still have God's Spirit. The question is, was I saved during this time having the Holy Spirit? Paul says fornicators are not to inherit the kingdom of God ...
 
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bcbsr

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I have a problem with this and that is, I was saved 8 years ago. Somewhere down the line I started living in sin, not proud to say I lived in a sexual relationship outside marriage for about a year. So having the Holy Spirit didn't kept me away from this sin. You can live in pretty bad sins and still have God's Spirit. The question is, was I saved during this time having the Holy Spirit? Paul says fornicators are not to inherit the kingdom of God ...
But how do you know you were "saved"? 1John teaches that assurance is related to our behavior.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning." 1John 3:7,8

Granted that it's using the present tense in these cases, which in the Greek is referring to lifestyle, rather than the aorist which refers to particular events. And thus while those born of God will sin from time to time, they won't live in sin.
 
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zoidar

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But how do you know you were "saved"? 1John teaches that assurance is related to our behavior.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning." 1John 3:7,8

Granted that it's using the present tense in these cases, which in the Greek is referring to lifestyle, rather than the aorist which refers to particular events. And thus while those born of God will sin from time to time, they won't live in sin.

How I know I was saved? God gave me a new heart, it was a washing of my soul. It was like I had been born an infant anew, clean from everything I had done in my life.

Things in life got tough, and I ended up living in sin.
 
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bcbsr

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How I know I was saved? God gave me a new heart, it was a washing of my soul. It was like I had been born an infant anew, clean from everything I had done in my life.

Things in life got tough, and I ended up living in sin.
If you ended up living in sin apparently you were not really clean from your former life. The living in sin kind of testifies to your salvation status, and not simply how you originally felt.
 
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zoidar

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If you ended up living in sin apparently you were not really clean from your former life. The living in sin kind of testifies to your salvation status, and not simply how you originally felt.

It was not just a feeling, it was a KNOWING. Maybe I lost salvation? That is pretty much my question. Can you lose salvation still having the Holy Spirit? I know I had the Holy Spirit the whole time. Sorry if this contradicts your theology.
 
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zoidar

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My own thoughts about this is that you can have the Holy Spirit and still not be saved. When you are saved you get the Holy Spirit, but you need to live according to the Spirit to walk on the path of salvation. You may fall off the path, but when you repent, turn back, you can keep walking on that path of the Spirit and salvation, much like "Anastasia" explained. #6
 
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zoidar

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Yes. He also says those who are being saved sometimes, iirc. (If not him, I know it's in the Epistles in places.)

We DO have a point of conversion. But that's not the end of our path as Christians. We are meant to pursue Christ, be transformed from glory to glory, run the race, and so on. If we stop in the middle of the race ... the Holy Spirit does not guarantee He will drag us to the finish line. (He might though. God might also take us at a point if He knows it's our only chance to be saved. But He might also allow apostasy. It's not a thing we want to test Him on ... though I doubt any sincere Christian would.)

I'm not criticizing your use of language, btw. As you said, it's present in Scripture. Im only commenting on how it can affect our understanding in relation to your question, if we understand those passages without the context of other passages as well.

Forgive me if you felt criticized.

Do you believe that if the Holy Spirit leaves you, you can be renewed in the Holy Spirit?
 
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What is your understanding? I'm not talking here about enduring to the end, but are we saved as long as we have the Holy Spirit? So please don't make this into a OSAS debate. God bless!

Romans 8:9
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."


Ok, being in the Spirit means you have the Holy Spirit and Romans 8:9 says if you don't have the Holy Spirit you aren't saved, but it doesn't say that if you have the Holy Spirit you are. On the contrary reading Romans 8:12-13 it seems having the Spirit is not equal with being saved if we not live by the Spirit.

"So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

.
This is basically what Paul was saying.

1) When you are born as a child in this Physical World, you are totally in the Flesh, both Physically, and Spiritually.

When you become Saved.
2) First you become a Believer, (Forgiveness of sins), then you become Baptized, this is where you DIE to the Flesh, (The Sinful Nature) of man, you don't die Physically, but Spiritually, and are Born Again unto the Spirit.

Mar. 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It is at this point your Saved. the Holy Spirit indwells you and you become a Child of God, the moment you come up out of the water, you Live and Walk in the Spirit.

Rom. 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

From this point, you don't decide if you will Walk in the Spirit or not, think of it this way, when you were born Physically, you didn't have to decide if you would Live and Walk in the Flesh, you just did because you were a Physical, Fleshly, Human Being.

Now you are a Spiritual being, because you have been given the Holy Spirit,(through Baptism) so we Walk in the Spirit, it's not a choice, it's a REALITY.
You are no longer who you were.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So then, it's at this point you have a choice to make, you don't want to hear about OSAS so I won't go any further in that direction, but you fear the loss of the Holy Spirit,.....ie, (Are you Saved)?

You can either believe, Once I receive the Holy Spirit, I am Dead to the Flesh, (The Sinful Nature) not Physically dead, but if now I lose the Holy Spirit, what then happens to me, if I am already dead to the Flesh Spiritually, and the life you now live is by the Faith of the Son of God?

You either do have the Holy Spirit and are Saved, or you have lost the Holy Spirit and are not Saved, with this understanding.

Heb 6:4-6
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26-29
26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
 
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