'once saved ,always saved' VS. Possibility of losing ones salvation

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It is very clear that you can lose your salvation n the Bible. It is difficult but possible. preachers don't teach on this because they are scared. hebrews 6 is plain and clear explaining the loss of salvation plus countless other scriptures. OSAS is a doctrine of devils-it is comfortable to the hearer and the sinner. Peace
 
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Chinchilla

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It is very clear that you can lose your salvation n the Bible. It is difficult but possible. preachers don't teach on this because they are scared. hebrews 6 is plain and clear explaining the loss of salvation plus countless other scriptures. OSAS is a doctrine of devils-it is comfortable to the hearer and the sinner. Peace

How long is eternity for you ?
 
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bcbsr

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It is very clear that you can lose your salvation n the Bible. It is difficult but possible. preachers don't teach on this because they are scared. hebrews 6 is plain and clear explaining the loss of salvation plus countless other scriptures. OSAS is a doctrine of devils-it is comfortable to the hearer and the sinner. Peace
I, along with many of us, disagree. John teaches us that those leaving the faith were never really of it to begin with.

1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us,
(ONCE SAVED)
they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

John explains later that this is due to the nature of regeneration. Once a person comes to faith in Christ, they are born of God, which has the following impact:

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

Consequently genuine beliefs never fall away, neither regarding the faith, nor a lifestyle consistent with that faith, even they may sin from time to time.

Thus Paul says concerning believers
"I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:38,39

Notice among this list the two aspects I put in bold. Time cannot separate us from the love of God, which is literally to say "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED", nor can the individual separate himself from God he is a part of creation, and nothing in all creation can do so.


However, there are those who, though identifying themselves with the Christian community, and who allege faith, have not yet come to genuine faith - saving faith. Yes, they can fall away. But they don't "lose" salvation, as they had not been qualified to obtain it to begin with.
 
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Lost4words

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Once saved, always saved, is a lie. We have to do our bit. How? By living a sin free life. By loving God. By believing in Jesus, The Way, The Truth and the Life.

If you Sin, repent. Go on your knees and repent. Me? I go to confession too.
 
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Chinchilla

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there is no time with eternity. its forever
Then how can you lose it if it's forever , unless you believe in gift of temporary life .

1 John 5:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 
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bcbsr

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We have to do our bit. How? By living a sin free life.
So you're saying that salvation is contingent upon living a sin free life, that is, salvation by works, performance based salvation. This in contrast to salvation by faith apart from works, which is the gospel Paul preached, as we can see in Romans 4

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:4-6

A person who works to be saved is disqualified from being saved, as they are putting trust in their own performance, rather than putting their trust in the promise of God.

At the beginning of Romans 4 put characterizes saving faith as that of Abraham. He we given a promise in Gen 15:5, and in the very next verse Gen 15:6 was declared righteous simply by believe God's promise, there being no intervening work on his part between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6, thus proving Paul's point that justification is by faith apart from works.

You have your version of a "gospel". Paul has his. Guess which one I'm going with.
 
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John the Ex-Baptist

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First off, I would completely agree with most Calvinists that the process of conversion is solely that of God alone. The reason for this is that I believe the Scripture if crystal clear on this matter, and in no place can that be more clearly seen than a place such as Ephesians 2:1-10.

Secondly, I would have to say that whenever anyone enters into glory, it will be due to no work of their own whatsoever. From the creation work of the Father, to the redeeming work of the Son, to the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit (as laid out in the apostles creed), the whole process of salvation is totally and purely monergistic from beginning to end. As far as Biblical references for this argument, they are simply too numerous and widespread to mention here.

With all that said however, I have come to the conclusion now that, although saving faith is itself a gift of God and something we cannot create of our own volition, it is also something that we can come to lose or reject. Repeatedly throughout the New Testament we are warned about the dangers of false teachings and the deceitfulness of sin, and we are exhorted to constantly seek after Christ and His Gospel. What is more, we are warned and exhorted in this manner because we are His children by faith in Christ, and by heeding these warnings and exhortations we shall endure to the end, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

As an ex Calvinist myself, many of the warnings and exhortations mentioned above were things I viewed in a pretty much hypothetical sense for the true believer, rather than a real and present danger. The more I have looked however, the more I realise this is untrue. A prime example of what I mean would be to look at the letter to the Colossians.

Colossians 1:1–3 (ESV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. 3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

The opening address is clearly written to the "saints and faithful brothers in Christ". This is not to say that when the letter was read in the churches, every hearer would be regenerate. But rather that the content of the message written by Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, was directed to those truly in the faith.

Immediately following, Paul goes on to remark on the obvious fruits of faith that have been manifest amongst the Colossian believers, and how they had heard and believed the true Gospel message, being taught by his faithful fellow servant, Epaphras. I think it really would be a leap of foolishness to suggest who Paul is indeed writing to are anything but genuine, regenerate Christian believers.

Paul then goes on to speak about the pre-eminence of Christ, and how in Him the fulness of God dwells, having the power and authority to reconcile to Himself all things in heaven and on earth by the blood of His cross. Then comes the kicker:

Colossians 1:21–23 (ESV)
21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

What this shows is that our full redemption is actually conditional. That condition being that we believe, and continue to believe in the faith once for all delivered to the saints. Is that not the prime reason for such harsh warnings against false teachers, promoting a false gospel that can never save?

Once again, as an ex Calvinist I would often refer to the "golden chain of redemption" in Romans 8:29-30 as evidence backing up the perseverence of the saints, for it is spoken in the past tense as if already a done deal so to speak. However even written only a few verses previously, and obviously directly related to verses 29-30, Paul writes:

Romans 8:16–18 (ESV)
16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

These verses are those leading directly leading into Paul speaking about the future glory in Christ that climaxes in verses 29-30, and place a clear condition the final glorification of the believer.

My reason for joining this conversation is not to jump on Calvinism though, as I feel much closer to Calvinist theology than any other. Rather my reason is that I believe that in this doctrine, Calvinism tries to force out assurance of salvation in a slightly off centre way. The reliance is upon the sovereign will of God that will not be fully unveiled before the Last Day. It is this crucial point that I have in hindsight often tried to argue for from the text of Scripture, where in reality it is not truly given to us.

As a Lutheran I have come to realise the value of Word and sacrament in the Christian life, as the channels through which we receive the promises of God's grace in Christ crucified and risen again. For God has instituted clear and tangible means, through which we can find full assurance of faith, without having to look under every rock and crevice to find it.

We can willingly submit ourselves to hearing His Word preached and expounded, knowing that by it our faith will grow:

Romans 10:17 (ESV)
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

We can know without doubt that we are in Christ through the gift of baptism, believing that through it we share in both His death and resurrection life:

Romans 6:3–5 (ESV)
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

As we partake of His Body and Blood in the bread and cup, we are reminded to the depth of our being that He gave Himself completely for the forgiveness of our sins, sealing our redemption as a covenant in His own blood:

1 Corinthians 11:23–26 (ESV)
23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

I could continue, but I think my point is clear by now. The full assurance of our salvation is found solely in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, which has been given to us in the Scripture. The Old Testament speaking prophetically concerning the coming Messiah, and the doctrine of the Apostles recorded in the New Testament, revealing how Christ is the fulfillment of the Scripture.

Thankfully, the conditions spoken of earlier concerning our ultimate glorification, are not works of our own. If that were the case we would all be lost forever. Rather it is a natural fruit borne from someone who has come to an understanding of their predicament, as a sinful wretch who should rightfully be eternally condemned by a Holy, Righteous and Almighty God. Who understands that should they be delivered from that dreadful place, it can only be because of His mercy and grace. The promise of which being embodied in the Person and Work of the only Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

I think the Bible is pretty clear that if the above is true of a Christian believer, even if that understanding is almost like a distant memory, there remains hope of salvation. For God is able once again to grant them the gift of repentance and faith. However I also believe the Bible speaks of a point of no return, where someone who once believed can totally reject the faith, and God will solidfy their rejection of Him to their eternal destruction:

Hebrews 10:24–31 (ESV)
24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2 Thessalonians 2:9–12 (ESV)
9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
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EvangAlived

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It is very clear that you can lose your salvation n the Bible. It is difficult but possible. preachers don't teach on this because they are scared. hebrews 6 is plain and clear explaining the loss of salvation plus countless other scriptures. OSAS is a doctrine of devils-it is comfortable to the hearer and the sinner. Peace
Ok. We should look at specific examples in the bible, to see demonstration, shouldn't we?

OT example:

1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13

NT example:

Act. 4:23-37, 5:1-11.
 
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Doug Melven

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It is very clear that you can lose your salvation n the Bible. It is difficult but possible. preachers don't teach on this because they are scared. hebrews 6 is plain and clear explaining the loss of salvation plus countless other scriptures. OSAS is a doctrine of devils-it is comfortable to the hearer and the sinner. Peace
Actually, there are to many preachers saying you can lose your salvation.
They preach you must do such and such to keep your salvation. They preach that way as a means of control.
Jesus said those He gives eternal life to will never perish. John 10:28
If someone Jesus gave eternal life to perished, Jesus would have lied.
Eternal security is not a license to sin. But it is freedom to love God. When you know you are secure in Christ and you don't have to be forever worrying about your eternal destiny you have peace.

Those who preach that you can lose a gift that you didn't earn will never know if they will have eternal life when they die. Because there assurance is based on there own conduct and not on God's Word.
 
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ewq1938

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I, along with many of us, disagree. John teaches us that those leaving the faith were never really of it to begin with.

1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us,
(ONCE SAVED)
they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


The obvious problem there is that you added the wording about being saved...the passage does not address the topic. I agree with the others that OSAS is not scriptural.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Here we are warned that those who

1: were once enlightened
2: and have tasted of the heavenly gift
3: and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
4: and have tasted the good word of God
5: and the powers of the world to come

can not only lose their salvation but can also be where it is impossible for them to be forgiven. This is the ultimate example of a saved person losing their salvation.
Perhaps they committed the unforgivable sin as the verses do mention that it is impossible to renew them to repentance:
Mat_12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Commit this sin and salvation is lost! There is no once saved always will be saved in the bible.


1 Timothy 1:19 Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked.

A person's faith can be shipwrecked which means it was flawed and sank and is no more.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

If we stay true to Him, He will stay true to us but if we deny Him He will deny us.
 
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bcbsr

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The obvious problem there is that you added the wording about being saved...the passage does not address the topic. I agree with the others that OSAS is not scriptural.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Here we are warned that those who

1: were once enlightened
2: and have tasted of the heavenly gift
3: and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
4: and have tasted the good word of God
5: and the powers of the world to come

can not only lose their salvation but can also be where it is impossible for them to be forgiven. This is the ultimate example of a saved person losing their salvation.
Perhaps they committed the unforgivable sin as the verses do mention that it is impossible to renew them to repentance:
Mat_12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Commit this sin and salvation is lost! There is no once saved always will be saved in the bible.


1 Timothy 1:19 Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked.

A person's faith can be shipwrecked which means it was flawed and sank and is no more.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

If we stay true to Him, He will stay true to us but if we deny Him He will deny us.
So first you discard my reference to 1John 2:19 without any basis for doing so, and then you go on to completely ignored 1John 2:19 in light of the verses you mentioned.

Try interpreting those verses in light of the following scripture:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

That indicates that those who apostasize from the faith were never really of it to begin with. That's what John teaches. What about those who don't hear what John teaches. John says of such people. "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us." That's what John says.
 
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ewq1938

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So first you discard my reference to 1John 2:19 without any basis for doing so, and then you go on to completely ignored 1John 2:19 in light of the verses you mentioned.

Try interpreting those verses in light of the following scripture:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

That indicates that those who apostasize from the faith were never really of it to begin with. That's what John teaches. What about those who don't hear what John teaches. John says of such people. "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us." That's what John says.


As I said, nothing about any type of "once you are saved you are saved forever". A saved person can Apostatize and lose salvation. All this shows is these particular people were never belonging to these other people.
 
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bcbsr

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As I said, nothing about any type of "once you are saved you are saved forever". A saved person can Apostatize and lose salvation. All this shows is these particular people were never belonging to these other people.
It's not just talking about a particular case. John speaks of a universal principle:

For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us;


Engage yourself in the text. Why is it that "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;" ? Why is that a truism? Can you hear what John is saying there?
 
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ewq1938

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It's not just talking about a particular case. John speaks of a universal principle:

For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us;


Engage yourself in the text. Why is it that "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;" ? Why is that a truism? Can you hear what John is saying there?


It is known as Eisegesis to introduce something into the text that isn't there. As I said, it does not speak about people who cannot lose salvation and only addresses an isolated group of people anyways. It simply doesn't demonstrate what you want it to.
 
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It is known as Eisegesis to introduce something into the text that isn't there. As I said, it does not speak about people who cannot lose salvation and only addresses an isolated group of people anyways. It simply doesn't demonstrate what you want it to.
And you're simply ignoring what it says.
 
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