Biblical proof of Mary's virginity

[Chrétien de Troyes]

I will show that Origen is undoubtedly the greatest exegete in Christian history, and that he was not at all mistaken when he asserted that the Virgin Mary was eternally Virgin and Pure.

First, the word used does not mean "husband" but "man". Then the marriage is not consumed, because the Virgin was not mated by Joseph, he can not be his "Husband". This is a common misinterpretation.

Matthew 1
16 and Jacob begat Joseph the husband (ἄνδρα) of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. Ἰακὼβ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωσὴφ τὸν ἄνδρα Μαρίας , ἐξ ἧς ἐγεννήθη Ἰησοῦς , ὁ λεγόμενος Χριστός .
19 And Joseph her husband(ἀνὴρ), being a righteous man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
Ἰωσὴφ δὲ , ὁ ἀνὴρ αὐτῆς , δίκαιος ὢν , καὶ μὴ θέλων αὐτὴν δειγματίσαι , ἐβουλήθη λάθρᾳ ἀπολῦσαι αὐτήν .

According to the Gospel, only Christ is the qualifier of a husband:
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom (νυμφίου).
Τότε ὁμοιωθήσεται ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν , δέκα παρθένοις , αἵτινες λαβοῦσαι τὰς λαμπάδας ἑαυτῶν , ἐξῆλθον εἰς ὑπάντησιν τοῦ νυμφίου .

Now, note the difference in vocabulary:

1 Joseph is the ἄνδρα and ἀνὴρ
2 Jésus is the νυμφίου

I invite you to do the test on google translate:
1 ἄνδρα = man
2 ἀνὴρ = man
3 νυμφίου = husband

If Joseph is not Mary's husband in the flesh, then he can not have children with her. It is therefore a spiritual marriage and the brothers of Jesus are simply not his brothers, but either cousins or half-brothers.

Therefore, the Virgin Mary is eternally Virgin and Protestants are wrong to debate on the subject.

(And Origen won)

Cordially

Chrétien de Troyes

 

[Saucy]

It's quite obvious from scripture that Mary had other kids. She was betrothed to Joseph and Joseph was about to put her away quietly, but the angel came and told him not to do that. Why? Because she was innocent and they were still to be married. You must consummate a marriage. I don't know why there's this just insistence that Mary remained a virgin. The bible says that the marriage bed is pure.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If we were talking about only one verse here, then maybe you would be right, but there are many verses saying that they were married, my friend.

"Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily." (Matthew 1:19) (KJV).

"Because Joseph her husband, a righteous man, was unwilling to disgrace her publicly, he resolved to divorce her quietly." (Matthew 1:19) (BSB).

4 "And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David: )
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child."
(Luke 2:4-5).

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 1:18) (KJV).

"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with Child through the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 1:18) (BSB).

24 "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." (Matthew 1:24-25).

Also, again, here are some passages where the other sons of Mary by Joseph are mentioned (Matthew 12:46; Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3; John 2:12; John 7:3, John 7:5, John 7:10; Acts of the Apostles 1:14; 1 Corinthians 9:5; Galatians 1:19).

 

[Chrétien de Troyes]

4 "And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David: )
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child."

(Luke 2:4-5).

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 1:18) (KJV).

"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with Child through the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 1:18) (BSB).

24 "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." (Matthew 1:24-25).

5 To be taxed with ​

Mary his espoused wife(ἐμνηστευμένῃ)​

, being great with child."​

ἐμνηστευμένῃ=being betrothed

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother ​

Mary was espoused (μνηστευθείσης) to Joseph, before they came together​

, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."​

μνηστευθείσης=having been betrothed

The Greek text speaks of betrothed, not of married people.
​

 

[Chrétien de Troyes]

You can also check for yourself on this site: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/1.htm

 

[Saucy]

Galatians 1:19 specifically calls James the Lord's brother.

Matthew 13:55 says, "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary? Aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?" Specifically calls out his brothers.

Matthew 1:24-25 specifically says Joseph took her up to be his wife.

There are numerous verses, but I know you'll refuse to accept them. I don't understand why there's this express desire to keep Mary a virgin and venerate her more by making up all these things about her life.

 

[ewq1938]

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

This was written after they had "come together" meaning they had sexual relations. The writers point is they had not yet come together when she became pregnant with Jesus. That she did have other children by Joseph is not debatable. Therefore this idea of eternal virginity is a man made fiction in an attempt to elevate a human woman into some higher than human concept and is fully pagan in such a pursuit.

 

[redleghunter]

I will show that Origen is undoubtedly the greatest exegete in Christian history, and that he was not at all mistaken when he asserted that the Virgin Mary was eternally Virgin and Pure.

First, the word used does not mean "husband" but "man". Then the marriage is not consumed, because the Virgin was not mated by Joseph, he can not be his "Husband". This is a common misinterpretation.

Matthew 1
16 and Jacob begat Joseph the husband (ἄνδρα) of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. Ἰακὼβ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωσὴφ τὸν ἄνδρα Μαρίας , ἐξ ἧς ἐγεννήθη Ἰησοῦς , ὁ λεγόμενος Χριστός .
19 And Joseph her husband(ἀνὴρ), being a righteous man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
Ἰωσὴφ δὲ , ὁ ἀνὴρ αὐτῆς , δίκαιος ὢν , καὶ μὴ θέλων αὐτὴν δειγματίσαι , ἐβουλήθη λάθρᾳ ἀπολῦσαι αὐτήν .

According to the Gospel, only Christ is the qualifier of a husband:
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom (νυμφίου).
Τότε ὁμοιωθήσεται ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν , δέκα παρθένοις , αἵτινες λαβοῦσαι τὰς λαμπάδας ἑαυτῶν , ἐξῆλθον εἰς ὑπάντησιν τοῦ νυμφίου .

Now, note the difference in vocabulary:

1 Joseph is the ἄνδρα and ἀνὴρ
2 Jésus is the νυμφίου

I invite you to do the test on google translate:
1 ἄνδρα = man
2 ἀνὴρ = man
3 νυμφίου = husband

If Joseph is not Mary's husband in the flesh, then he can not have children with her. It is therefore a spiritual marriage and the brothers of Jesus are simply not his brothers, but either cousins or half-brothers.

Therefore, the Virgin Mary is eternally Virgin and Protestants are wrong to debate on the subject.

(And Origen won)

Cordially

Chrétien de Troyes

I notice Origen is conveniently cited when convenient. Yet also called a heretic:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-51/origen-model-or-heretic.html

Guess why there is no feast day for him.

Yet we do have this:

Matthew 1: NASB

24And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Other versions of verse 25:

New Living Translation
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

King James Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Christian Standard Bible
but did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. And he named him Jesus.

Contemporary English Version
But they did not sleep together before her baby was born. Then Joseph named him Jesus.

Good News Translation
But he had no sexual relations with her before she gave birth to her son. And Joseph named him Jesus.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.

International Standard Version
He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

NET Bible
but did not have marital relations with her until she gave birth to a son, whom he named Jesus.

New Heart English Bible
and had no marital relations with her until she had brought forth a son; and he named him Jesus.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he did not know her sexually until she delivered her firstborn son, and she called his name Yeshua.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He did not have marital relations with her before she gave birth to a son. Joseph named the child Jesus.

New American Standard 1977
and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus.

King James 2000 Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

American King James Version
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

American Standard Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Darby Bible Translation
and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

English Revised Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Webster's Bible Translation
And knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son: and he called his name JESUS.

Weymouth New Testament
but did not live with her until she had given birth to a son. The child's name he called JESUS.

World English Bible
and didn't know her sexually until she had brought forth her firstborn son. He named him Jesus.

Young's Literal Translation
and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.

 

[Athanasius377]

I will show that Origen is undoubtedly the greatest exegete in Christian history, and that he was not at all mistaken when he asserted that the Virgin Mary was eternally Virgin and Pure.

Greatest exegete. Huh. Are your really really ready to defend that assertion?

 

[Chrétien de Troyes]

Matthew 13:55 says, "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary? Aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?" Specifically calls out his brothers.

It leaves room for interpretation, but as I have shown: the term νυμφίου is never applied to Joseph. We must find an alternative hypothesis.

 

[Athanasius377]

I will show that Origen is undoubtedly the greatest exegete in Christian history, and that he was not at all mistaken when he asserted that the Virgin Mary was eternally Virgin and Pure.

Misunderstood? Maybe. He wrote a LOT of things that are questionable.

 

[Saucy]

It leaves room for interpretation, but as I have shown: the term νυμφίου is never applied to Joseph. We must find an alternative hypothesis.

It leaves room for interpretation, but you're choosing to take a different one. HE TOOK HER AS HIS WIFE. It doesn't get clearer than that. Jesus is called the 'son of the carpenter', who was Joseph.

 

[Chrétien de Troyes]

Greatest exegete. Huh. Are your really really ready to defend that assertion?

Without a problem, only the De Principiis text was corrupted in the 4th or 5th century, so it is not necessarily reliable.
But we must make the difference between exegesis and theology.

 

[Chrétien de Troyes]

It leaves room for interpretation, but you're choosing to take a different one. HE TOOK HER AS HIS WIFE. It doesn't get clearer than that. Jesus is called the 'son of the carpenter', who was Joseph.

Still go see the Greek text, it's more reliable than a translation: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/1.htm

 

[Athanasius377]

What other source do you have is θεόπνευστος?

 

[Chrétien de Troyes]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

 

[Athanasius377]

Without a problem, only the De Principiis text was corrupted in the 4th or 5th century, so it is not necessarily reliable.
But we must make the difference between exegesis and theology.

Based on what evidence? I really want to know.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

5 To be taxed with ​

Mary his espoused wife(ἐμνηστευμένῃ)
, being great with child."
ἐμνηστευμένῃ=being betrothed

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother ​

Mary was espoused (μνηστευθείσης) to Joseph, before they came together
, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."
μνηστευθείσης=having been betrothed

The Greek text speaks of betrothed, not of married people.
​

Please take no offense, my friend. But I am not a fan of Christians using the original languages. I mean, no disrespect, and I have no ill will towards you in any way. But it seems like you are trying to change what my Bible says plainly in the English. It's as if you think the original languages say something different than our English Bibles. This to me seems like cheating. No offense. For people act like they know Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek when they did not grow up in that culture speaking and writing it themselves. Can you speak and write Biblical Greek without any lexicons? But what if these Lexicons are wrong? How would you know? How would you know you are not favoring a wrong interpretation because you are biased towards that belief because it sounds better to you? You don't know. See, folks who favor the original languages (While they ignore the English) are merely guessing as to what they think it says.

This is not a new thing I have run into. This very thing happened to me with another Christian in another thread just today. It is frustrating because when you show them the truth of God's Word plainly, they undo it by them acting like they know a dead language (When they really do not). We read our Bibles in the English and not in the original languages. We repented of our sins hearing our Bible in the English and not the original languages. We communicate even now using the English and not the original languages. So when I see folks throw down the original languages card to say something that the Bible does not say plainly, it makes me suspect that they just do not like what the Bible says plainly (so they have to change what it says by making the original languages say what they want it to say). For who is going to really say that you are wrong? Paul? Nobody is really alive today to check your Biblical Greek. God preserved His Word in the world language of today. If He didn't then God lied to us within His Word about preserving His Word perfectly for all generations. I believe the perfect Word is the KJV (and I believe in using Modern Translations as a way of sifting through the dirt to get to the gold that is written within the KJV). You may disagree with that, but I believe God keeps His promises as His Word states. I have also seen MANY evidences that prove that the KJV is divine in origin. I will not bother to mention them unless you are actually interested in hearing about them.

Again, please take no offense. I just really do not like it when folks try to make the Bible say what they want to say by using the original languages because it makes it look like they don't like what God's Word says so they have to change it using the original languages (with nobody really being able to challenge them because nobody really knows that language anyways).

 

[Chrétien de Troyes]

Based on what evidence? I really want to know.

This is something I read in a preface. A Father of the Church had corrupted the text thinking that heretics had the text. Saint Jerome was scandalized and decided to translate the original text into Latin, but his translation is lost, so we are content with the corrupt version.

 

[Saucy]

Still go see the Greek text, it's more reliable than a translation: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/1.htm

I did. In the Greek, Matthew 1:24-25 still says, "Joseph from the sleep had done what was commanded him the angel of the Lord and received the wife of him and not knew her UNTIL that she had brought forth a Son and he called the name of him Jesus."

So, even in the Greek, Joseph was commanded to take her as his wife, did not know her until she gave birth. Really, the ONLY prophecy that matters regarding Mary was that the Messiah was to be born of a virgin. Mary plays NO OTHER significant role. There's no other indication that she was pure, perfect, had healing powers, could forgive sin, can answer prayers, or any of the many things others say she can do.

But on the flip side, scripture says Jesus had brothers and more than once calls James his brother. Again, the marriage bed is pure. Mary did not defile herself by sleeping with her husband after Christ was born.