Can the law or religion save you?

[redleghunter]

And just how is one perfect according to the verse you've taken out of context?

That’s the point. Only Jesus.

 

[EmSw]

Hi EmSw, actually, the Bible has quite a bit to say about that (incl Matt 5:48, of course), because "keeping the Law" means just that, and no one, save Jesus, has ever been able to do that.

Hello St. Worm. Why do you not believe what is said about Zacharias and Elizabeth?

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

What does walking in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS, mean to you? Does it mean they were guilty? What blame do you put on Zacharias and Elizabeth?

St. James could not make that fact any clearer for us if he tried:

James 2​

10 Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the Law.

As I said before, we are never told to keep them perfectly. Many have tried to make the Bible say that, but frankly, they have failed. Maybe you can show me where it says to keep His commandments perfectly.

Quite frankly, the Pharisees came far closer to "keeping the Law" than anyone else ever has (going so far as tithing their supplies of mint and dill and cummin .. Matthew 23:23), but it was not enough to save them according to Jesus .. Matthew 5:20.

Except Jesus told them this -

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So they didn't keep the weightier matters of the law. They chose the easy things to pay tithes, and omitted the weightier things.

You would like us to believe (as you do) that being 'sort of' obedient to God's laws will save us, that the Cross therefore means nothing and that Jesus' death does not atone for our sins, but the Bible tells us otherwise.

Well, St. Worm, I have to take Jesus' words as the final authority on this matter. I seen many on hear who do not believe His word when it comes to 'sort of' obedience to His commandments.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I really don't know how Jesus could make it any plainer. Many have excuses not to heed these words of Jesus. Another verse which many have no idea what Jesus said is John 6:53 -

Then Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

How many can say they have drunk His literal blood, and eaten His literal flesh? When they read these words, they immediately think of something other than His literal flesh and blood.

Of course, ANYTHING/EVERYTHING that the Bible has to say to us becomes meaningless if you choose to take a pair of scissors to it and remove all the parts that you don't like/that you don't agree with, IOW, everything (in your case) that doesn't seem to support your works righteousness presupposition. Like Madalyn Murray O'Hair before you (who told us that she was an atheist was because "even the Bible says: 'There is no God'" .. e.g. Psalms 14:1), you can make the Bible say anything you want it to if you're actually willing to go that far (of course, it stops being the "word of God" and becomes the "word of Madalyn" or the "word of EmSw" instead).

Do you 'cut out' the words of Jesus, which do tell us that works of charity are a part of life? As I said earlier, many just as soon 'cut out' Matthew 19:17, because they do not like it or they do not agree with it.

Does this verse support your view of salvation without works? Which is worse, an infidel as Murray saying what she did, or a Christian putting aside the very words of Jesus?

What I say about keeping His commandments to enter life, are not my words. They are the words of life from the Savior Himself.

 

[EmSw]

That’s the point. Only Jesus.

That's not an answer. Quit trying to wiggle out my question to you.

And just how is one perfect according to the verse you've taken out of context?

 

[St_Worm2]

Why do you not believe what is said about Zacharias and Elizabeth?

I do, of course, but only as understood "in context" with the rest of the Bible (which certainly includes verses like Romans 3:23, as well passages like Luke 1:18-20). To pull verses out of context like you do is to assign your own meaning to them, which gives each of them a completely different meaning than the Lord intended (just like Mrs. O'Hair did when she insisted that the Bible teaches us that, "there is no God" .. Psalms 14:1 .. it says that, but surely you do not agree with her that it means that .. do you ).

 

[Dan the deacon]

Hello St. Worm. Why do you not believe what is said about Zacharias and Elisibeth

The scriptures do not say they were sinless. The scripture says they were righteous. One does not mean the other. Scripture is clear that only Christ was without sin. Perhaps you need to do a study on the word righteous. Zac was stricken dumb for doubting and not believing God. Is that not a sin?

 

[HatGuy]

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commands, in Deuteronomy 10:12-11:1, the way to love God with all of our heart and soul is about obey His commands, in John 14:15, Jesus said if we love him, then we will obey His commands, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, in Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Law as being instructions for how to love God and our neighbor, and in Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so obedience to God's instructions has always been about expressing our love for Him. Love can't go beyond the Law because that it what the Law is essentially about how to do.

Likewise, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God is what it looks like to have faith and what it means to believe in Him. While it is true that Abraham believed God and was counted as righteous, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he didn't hesitate to obey God's command to offer Isaac. Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness (Titus 2:14), so he is the object of our faith and obedience to the Law is how we express that faith.

In John 5:46, Jesus said that Moses wrote about him, in Luke 24:27, Jesus began with Moses and the Prophets interpreting to them all of the things in Scripture concerning himself, in Hebrews 10:7, the volume of the scroll is written about Jesus, and in Romans 10:4, Jesus is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith, so the Law is all about Christ and how to have a relationship with him based on faith and love. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been outwardly obeying the Law, but without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole point and counted it all as rubbish. So the right solution to incorrectly obeying the Law is to start obeying it correctly with the right focus, not to stop obeying God.

Being born again is about dying to living in sin and rising again in Christ to a life of obedience by grace through faith.

Thank you for your long and detailed response. I appreciate it.

Galatians 3:
Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so many things for nothing? – if indeed it was for nothing. 5 Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard?

10 For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” 11 Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith. 12 But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.

I literally don't understand the source of confusion here. The Bible is clear that you do not "finish" by human effort, and you do not receive the Spirit by works of the Law but by faith.

I don't even understand what you're taking issue with. Let's try and break each part of your post down to see that the issue you're taking up is not the right one.

You said: "obedience to God's instructions has always been about expressing our love for Him."

I say: yes.

You said: "in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God is what it looks like to have faith and what it means to believe in Him."

I say: yes. (However, 'faithfulness' might be the better way to translate 'faith' in that verse.)

You said: "It is also true that Abraham believed God, so he didn't hesitate to obey God's command to offer Isaac."

I say: Yes.

You said: "Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness (Titus 2:14), so he is the object of our faith and obedience to the Law is how we express that faith."

I say: Yes, however now we're starting to get to the crux of the matter - what obedience to the Law looks like.

Firstly, I think you're assuming that "salvation by faith alone" means that faith does not have to result in obedience. That's incorrect. Salvation by faith alone has always been a doctrine that insists that true faith results in works of obedience in love. Obedience follows faith. However, faith does not follow obedience. You don't get faith by obeying. Faith comes from God, not through obedience. You are saved (you get in) through faith, and that obedience is the natural outcome of faith lived.

You said: "the Law is all about Christ and how to have a relationship with him based on faith and love."

I say: Yes. What you are doing now is expounding on the "third use of the Law" that the Reformationists, including Luther, upheld - and so did John Wesley and pretty much most of Protestantism.

First use of the Law: to convict the sinner that they are indeed a sinner and in need of repentance.
Second use of the Law: For civil matters, to create a moral standard for society.
Third use of the Law: to guide the Christian in matters of how to live their faith and love.

So far, where is the disagreement?

You said: "Being born again is about dying to living in sin and rising again in Christ to a life of obedience by grace through faith."

I say: Kinda. You are born again so you can enter into the life of obedience. "Born again" is not a process. Being given the Spirit is not a process. But the life of obedience is a process. You live by faith and in grace, and you grow in faith and in grace.

So where is the disagreement?

I'll tell you what I think the disagreement is. It's probably on two fronts:

A. The "third use of the Law" does not mean that I obey a holy day or don't eat pork. It is only the moral aspects - the ethical principles - of the Law which now qualify. This is because the Law is about love, not following a written code. This is because the Spirit of God has replaced the Law for the Christian. We no longer have the Law outside but now it is written in our hearts, and we are guided by its underlying principles of love. This is what I mean by going 'beyond' the Law. The reason for keeping a holy day is important, not the day in itself. The reason for not eating unclean meat is important, not what meat I eat. Following the "Spirit of the Law" rather that the "Letter of the Law" is what is meant here.

B. Living a life of obedience does not gain you salvation, it grows you in a salvation you already have. You are already an adopted son. But how does a son live? Well, we have certain rules and ways of doing things. That's how we live, and that's the third use of the Law.

Obedience is the result, not the cause, of faith. Faith causes obedience. Obedience does not create faith. The starting point is faith. Faith is what "gets you in" (for lack of a better term) the Spirit. The Spirit is what energises you to fulfil the Law by living in love. To 'fulfil' the Law means to 'complete' it, to live out its actual point / use. 'Fulfil' does not mean to live with a giant checklist of things to do or don't do.

Faith -> Spirit -> Obedience in love. And this is the doctrine of salvation / justification by faith.

 

[EmSw]

I do, of course, but only as understood "in context" with the rest of the Bible (which certainly includes verses like Romans 3:23, as well passages like Luke 1:18-20). To pull verses out of context like you do is to assign your own meaning to them, which gives each of them a completely different meaning than the Lord intended (just like Mrs. O'Hair did when she insisted that the Bible teaches us that, "there is no God" .. Psalms 14:1 .. it says that, but surely you do not agree with her that it means that .. do you ).

So, I'm wondering what you understand about Zacharias and Elizabeth. Do you think they walked in all the commandments and ordinances of God with blame? Do you think they were not righteous before God?

How did I pull what is said about Zacharias and Elizabeth out of context? I surely believe the Bible when it says they were righteous before God. Since no one else had a son with John the Baptist's ministry, is it pulling it out of context to say their son prepared the way of the Lord?

How does not believing an angel break a commandment of God?

Everybody has sinned; I have no problem with that. However, how many who are saved, are born again, are justified, are on the way to Heaven, and are children of God, have not sinned? Being a sinner does not disqualify someone from keeping all the commandments blamelessly.

Why would I believe there is no God? Ms. O'Hair was an unbeliever who despised God. What she read and thought about God does not mean a thing to me. What I do know is that the fool has said in his heart, there is no God.

 

[EmSw]

The scriptures do not say they were sinless. The scripture says they were righteous. One does not mean the other. Scripture is clear that only Christ was without sin. Perhaps you need to do a study on the word righteous. Zac was stricken dumb for doubting and not believing God. Is that not a sin?

Our conversation was not about being sinless. You added that so you could beat it to death. We were conversing about keeping His commandments.

As a child of God, you should be encouraging others to keep them and obey God. Instead, you speak words of doubt and weakness.

Zacharias did not doubt God. Perhaps you should read it more carefully. He did not believe the words of an angel. I'm sure if an angel appeared before you and told you if you wanted you enter life, keep His commandments, you would doubt and not believe what he said, even though he stood in the presence of God.

 

[redleghunter]

So, I'm wondering what you understand about Zacharias and Elizabeth. Do you think they walked in all the commandments and ordinances of God with blame? Do you think they were not righteous before God?

How did I pull what is said about Zacharias and Elizabeth out of context? I surely believe the Bible when it says they were righteous before God. Since no one else had a son with John the Baptist's ministry, is it pulling it out of context to say their son prepared the way of the Lord?

Zacharias and Elizabeth by walking in all the commandments and ordinances of God participated in animal sacrifices to cover their sins. Zacharias most likely in his time in the priestly class oversaw the sacrifices of the Day of Atonement yearly (Leviticus 16). It did not mean they were sinless, but they followed the Law and part of that Law were the daily, weekly, monthly and yearly sacrifices.

As it says in Hebrews 9:22 "without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

 

[EmSw]

Zacharias and Elizabeth by walking in all the commandments and ordinances of God participated in animal sacrifices to cover their sins. Zacharias most likely in his time in the priestly class oversaw the sacrifices of the Day of Atonement yearly (Leviticus 16). It did not mean they were sinless, but they followed the Law and part of that Law were the daily, weekly, monthly and yearly sacrifices.

As it says in Hebrews 9:22 "without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

What you omit is they, Zacharias AND Elizabeth, walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of God BLAMELESSLY, and you say it was participating in animal sacrifices. This is surely not ALL the commandments, nor ordinances. You have only given one aspect of Zacharias performing priestly duties, and this would not include Elizabeth.

I'm guessing the word 'blameless' is causing you trouble. They walked BLAMELESSLY in ALL the commandments and ordinances of God, not just the sacrifices.

I would have to say the writer of Hebrews did not walk with Jesus during His earthly ministry, or didn't know Jesus at all. If he did, he would have seen many people forgiven of sin without the shedding of blood.

I wonder how many really believe Jesus when He said this in Matthew 9:6 -

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Jesus could have, and did forgive sins without any cross, and without any shed blood.

 

[redleghunter]

What you omit is they, Zacharias AND Elizabeth, walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of God BLAMELESSLY, and you say it was participating in animal sacrifices. This is surely not ALL the commandments, nor ordinances. You have only given one aspect of Zacharias performing priestly duties, and this would not include Elizabeth.

I'm guessing the word 'blameless' is causing you trouble. They walked BLAMELESSLY in ALL the commandments and ordinances of God, not just the sacrifices.

I would have to say the writer of Hebrews did not walk with Jesus during His earthly ministry, or didn't know Jesus at all. If he did, he would have seen many people forgiven of sin without the shedding of blood.

I wonder how many really believe Jesus when He said this in Matthew 9:6 -

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Jesus could have, and did forgive sins without any cross, and without any shed blood.

All Israel stood before the Temple on the day of Atonement.

 

[EmSw]

All Israel stood before the Temple on the day of Atonement.

I have no idea where you are going with this. Tell you what, go look up 'remission', study it, look at it head on, sideways, from below, and even on the back side. When you are sure what it means, tell me what is missing from 'remission' that is included in the atonement.

 

[redleghunter]

I have no idea where you are going with this. Tell you what, go look up 'remission', study it, look at it head on, sideways, from below, and even on the back side. When you are sure what it means, tell me what is missing from 'remission' that is included in the atonement.

Remission, Remit Vine’s Expository
A. Nouns. 1. aphesis (859), “a dismissal, release” (from aphiemi, B), is used of the forgiveness of sins and translated “remission” in Matt. 26: 28; Mark 1: 4; Luke 1: 77; 3: 3; 24: 47; Acts 2: 38; 5: 31 (KJV, “forgiveness”); 10: 43; 13: 38, RV (KJV, “forgiveness”); 26: 18 (ditto); Heb. 9: 22; 10: 18. See Forgive, B, and A, No. 1. 2. paresis (3929), “a passing by of debt or sin,” Rom. 3: 25, KJV, “remission” (RV and KJV marg., “passing over”). See Passing over.¶ Note: No. 2 is a matter of forbearance, No. 1 a matter of grace.

Which is directly related to the unilateral covenants God makes with man.

https://www.theopedia.com/covenant

 

[redleghunter]

I have no idea where you are going with this. Tell you what, go look up 'remission', study it, look at it head on, sideways, from below, and even on the back side. When you are sure what it means, tell me what is missing from 'remission' that is included in the atonement.

More:

Leviticus 16: NASB

15Aaron shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and bring its blood behind the veil, and with its blood he must do as he did with the bull’s blood: He is to sprinkle it against the mercy seat and in front of it.

16So he shall make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the impurities and rebellious acts of the Israelites in regard to all their sins. He is to do the same for the Tent of Meeting which abides among them, because it is surrounded by their impurities. 17No one may be in the Tent of Meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he leaves, after he has made atonement for himself, his household, and the whole assembly of Israel.

18Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it. He is to take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. 19He is to sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

The Scapegoat

20When Aaron has finished purifying the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, he is to bring forward the live goat. 21Then he is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the iniquities and rebellious acts of the Israelites in regard to all their sins. He is to put them on the goat’s head and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man appointed for the task.22The goat will carry on itself all their iniquities into a solitary place, and the man will release it into the wilderness.

23Then Aaron is to enter the Tent of Meeting, take off the linen garments he put on before entering the Most Holy Place, and leave them there. 24He is to bathe himself with water in a holy place and put on his own clothes. Then he must go out and sacrifice his burnt offering and the people’s burnt offering to make atonement for himself and for the people.25He is also to burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

26The man who released the goat as the scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may reenter the camp.

27The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp and their hides, flesh, and dung must be burned up. 28The one who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water, and afterward he may reenter the camp.

The Day of Atonement

29This is to be a permanent statute for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month, you shall humble your soulsb and not do any work—whether the native or the foreigner who resides among you—30because on this day atonement will be made for you to cleanse you, and you will be clean from all your sins before the LORD. 31It is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you, that you may humble your souls; it is a permanent statute.

32The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest shall make atonement. He will put on the sacred linen garments 33and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, and for the priests and all the people of the assembly.34This is to be a permanent statute for you, to make atonement once a year for the Israelites because of all their sins.”

And all this was done as the LORD had commanded Moses.

 

[HatGuy]

I wonder how many really believe Jesus when He said this in Matthew 9:6 -

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Why did he forgive the sins of that guy in Matthew 9?

 

[EmSw]

Remission, Remit Vine’s Expository
A. Nouns. 1. aphesis (859), “a dismissal, release” (from aphiemi, B), is used of the forgiveness of sins and translated “remission” in Matt. 26: 28; Mark 1: 4; Luke 1: 77; 3: 3; 24: 47; Acts 2: 38; 5: 31 (KJV, “forgiveness”); 10: 43; 13: 38, RV (KJV, “forgiveness”); 26: 18 (ditto); Heb. 9: 22; 10: 18. See Forgive, B, and A, No. 1. 2. paresis (3929), “a passing by of debt or sin,” Rom. 3: 25, KJV, “remission” (RV and KJV marg., “passing over”). See Passing over.¶ Note: No. 2 is a matter of forbearance, No. 1 a matter of grace.

Which is directly related to the unilateral covenants God makes with man.

https://www.theopedia.com/covenant

A couple of things here. Remission is mentioned throughout the Old and New Testaments, some with blood and most without. As Vine's notes, remission is a 'dismissal, release used of forgiveness of sins' and a 'passing by of debt of sin'.

Why would Jesus have to 'die' for sins which have been dismissed and released? What debt would Jesus have to 'pay' for sins if the debt has been passed? Did God drudge up old sins which had been dismissed and put them on Jesus? What atonement was needed for sins whose debt had been passed over?

 

[EmSw]

More:

Leviticus 16: NASB

15Aaron shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and bring its blood behind the veil, and with its blood he must do as he did with the bull’s blood: He is to sprinkle it against the mercy seat and in front of it.

16So he shall make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the impurities and rebellious acts of the Israelites in regard to all their sins. He is to do the same for the Tent of Meeting which abides among them, because it is surrounded by their impurities. 17No one may be in the Tent of Meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he leaves, after he has made atonement for himself, his household, and the whole assembly of Israel.

18Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it. He is to take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. 19He is to sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

The Scapegoat

20When Aaron has finished purifying the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, he is to bring forward the live goat. 21Then he is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the iniquities and rebellious acts of the Israelites in regard to all their sins. He is to put them on the goat’s head and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man appointed for the task.22The goat will carry on itself all their iniquities into a solitary place, and the man will release it into the wilderness.

23Then Aaron is to enter the Tent of Meeting, take off the linen garments he put on before entering the Most Holy Place, and leave them there. 24He is to bathe himself with water in a holy place and put on his own clothes. Then he must go out and sacrifice his burnt offering and the people’s burnt offering to make atonement for himself and for the people.25He is also to burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

26The man who released the goat as the scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may reenter the camp.

27The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp and their hides, flesh, and dung must be burned up. 28The one who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water, and afterward he may reenter the camp.

The Day of Atonement

29This is to be a permanent statute for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month, you shall humble your soulsb and not do any work—whether the native or the foreigner who resides among you—30because on this day atonement will be made for you to cleanse you, and you will be clean from all your sins before the LORD. 31It is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you, that you may humble your souls; it is a permanent statute.

32The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest shall make atonement. He will put on the sacred linen garments 33and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, and for the priests and all the people of the assembly.34This is to be a permanent statute for you, to make atonement once a year for the Israelites because of all their sins.”

And all this was done as the LORD had commanded Moses.

So this is a permanent statute for Israel, right? Do you know of any group of people who still do this today? Isn't a man cleansed from his sins before the Lord when he repents for remission of sins?

 

[EmSw]

Why did he forgive the sins of that guy in Matthew 9?

He saw their faith which included doing something. They didn't just sit at home doing nothing, waiting for Jesus' forgiveness.

Psalm 86:5
For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Jeremiah 36:3
It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

1 Kings 8
38 What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all thy people Israel, which shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house:
39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men.

No mention of blood, nor any death in the above passages.

 

[redleghunter]

As Vine's notes, remission is a 'dismissal, release used of forgiveness of sins' and a 'passing by of debt of sin'.

In both the OT and NT the remission of sins is in blood. As Jesus indicated:

Luke 20: NASB
14When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. 15And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; 18for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” 19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

Why would Jesus have to 'die' for sins which have been dismissed and released?

Hebrews 9:22 once again. And in Hebrews 9:9-10 we see why. Let's look at the entire chapter for context. The author is comparing the Old Covenant sacrifices with the Sacrifice of Christ:

Hebrews 9: NASB
1Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. 3Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

6Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.” 21And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

 

[redleghunter]

What debt would Jesus have to 'pay' for sins if the debt has been passed?

See above but the below explains why.

1 John 2: NASB
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.


Propitiation:
hilasmos: propitiation
Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Short Definition: a propitiation, atoning sacrifice
Definition: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.

2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").

Vine's Expository Dictionary of the New Testament:
Propitiation
[ A-1,Verb,G2433, hilaskomai ]
was used amongst the Greeks with the significance to make the gods propitious, to appease, propitiate," inasmuch as their good will was not conceived as their natural attitude, but something to be earned first. This use of the word is foreign to the Greek Bible, with respect to God, whether in the Sept. or in the NT. It is never used of any act whereby man brings God into a favorable attude or gracious disposition. It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.

Thus in Luke 18:13 it signifies "to be propitious" or "merciful to" (with the person as the object of the verb), and in Hebrews 2:17 "to expiate, to make propitiation for" (the object of the verb being sins); here the RV, "to make propitiation" is an important correction of the AV, "to make reconciliation." Through the "propitiation" sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace. Never is God said to be reconciled, a fact itself indicative that the enmity exists on man's part alone, and that it is man who needs to be reconciled to God, and not God to man. God is always the same and, since He is Himself immutable, His relative attitude does change towards those who change. He can act differently towards those who come to Him by faith, and solely on the ground of the "propitiatory" sacrifice of Christ, not because He has changed, but because He ever acts according to His unchanging righteousness.

The expiatory work of the Cross is therefore the means whereby the barrier which sin interposes between God and man is broken down. By the giving up of His sinless life sacrifically, Christ annuls the power of sin to separate between God and the believer.

In the OT the Hebrew verb kaphar is connected with kopher, "a covering" (See MERCY SEAT), and is used in connection with the burnt offering, e.g., Leviticus 1:4; Leviticus 14:20; Leviticus 16:24, the guilt offering e.g., Leviticus 5:16, Leviticus 5:18, the sin offering, e.g., Leviticus 4:20, Leviticus 4:26, Leviticus 4:31, Leviticus 4:35, the sin offering and burnt offering together, e.g., Leviticus 5:10; Leviticus 9:7, the meal offering and peace offering, e.g., Ezekiel 45:15, Ezekiel 45:17, as well as in other respects. It is used of the ram offered at the consecration of the high priest, Exodus 29:33, and of the blood which God gave upon the altar to make "propitiation" for the souls of the people, and that because "the life of the flesh is in the blood," Leviticus 17:11, and "it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life" (RV). Man has forfeited his life on account of sin and God has provided the one and only way whereby eternal life could be bestowed, namely, by the voluntary laying down of His life by His Son, under Divine retribution. Of this the former sacrifices appointed by God were foreshadowings.

[ B-1,Noun,G2435, hilasterion ]
akin to A, is regarded as the neuter of an adjective signifying "propitiatory." In the Sept. it is used adjectivelly in connection with epithema, "a cover," in Exodus 25:17; Exodus 37:6, of the lid of the ark (See MERCY SEAT), but it is used as a noun (without epithema), of locality, in Exodus 25:18-Exodus 25:22; Exodus 31:7; Exodus 35:12; Exodus 37:7-Exodus 37:9; Leviticus 16:2, Leviticus 16:13-Leviticus 16:15; Numbers 7:89, and this is its use in Hebrews 9:5.

Elsewhere in the NT it occurs in Romans 3:25, where it is used of Christ Himself; the RV text and punctuation in this verse are important: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by His blood." The phrase "by His blood" is to be taken in immediate connection with "propitiation." Christ, through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.

Note: "By metonymy, 'blood' is sometimes put for 'death,' inasmuch as, blood being essential to life, Leviticus 17:11, when the blood is shed life is given up, that is, death takes place. The fundamental principle on which God deals with sinners is expressed in the words 'apart from shedding of blood,' i.e., unless a death takes place, 'there is no remission' of sins, Hebrews 9:22.

"But whereas the essential of the type lay in the fact that blood was shed, the essential of the antitype lies in this, that the blood shed was that of Christ. Hence, in connection with Jewish sacrifices, 'the blood' is mentioned without reference to the victim from which it flowed, but in connection with the great antitypical sacrifice of the NT the words 'the blood' never stand alone; the One Who shed the blood is invariably specified, for it is the Person that gives value to the work; the saving efficacy of the Death depends entirely upon the fact that He Who died was the Son of God." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 168.]

[ B-2,Noun,G2434, hilasmos ]
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1 John 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Leviticus 25:9; Numbers 5:8; 1 Chronicles 28:20; Psalms 130:4; Ezekiel 44:27; Amos 8:14.
https://studybible.info/vines/Propitiation​

Mercy Seat

[ 1,,G2435, hilasterion ]
the lid or cover of the ark of the covenant," signifies the Propitiatory, so called on account of the expiation made once a year on the great Day of Atonement, Hebrews 9:5. For the formation See Exodus 25:17-Exodus 25:21. The Heb. word is kapporeth, "the cover," a meaning connected with the covering or removal of sin (Psalms 32:1) by means of expiatory sacrifice. This mercy seat, together with the ark, is spoken of as the footstool of God, 1 Chronicles 28:2; cp. Psalms 99:5; Psalms 132:7. The Lord promised to be present upon it and to commune with Moses "from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim," Exodus 25:22 (See CHERUBIM). In the Sept. the word epithema, which itself means "a cover," is added to hilasterion; epithema was simply a translation of kapporeth; accordingly, hilasterion, not having this meaning, and being essentially connected with propitiation, was added. Eventually hilasterion stood for both. In 1 Chronicles 28:11 the Holy of Holies is called "the House of the Kapporeth" (See RV, marg.). Through His voluntary expiatory sacrifice in the shedding of His blood, under Divine judgment upon sin, and through His resurrection, Christ has become the Mercy Seat for His people. See Romans 3:25, and See PROPITIATION, B, No. 1.​

Romans 3: NASB
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
1 John 1: NASB

5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

And if your question is "how were the OT saints justified when the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ occurred later in history?", then please read Hebrews 11 which I highlight the pertinent verses here:

13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them. (Hebrews 11:13-16)


39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40)

It was their faith in God that He would accomplish His promises. They were justified by faith for a future promise of the fulfillment in Christ Jesus. Amen.