Can the law or religion save you?

[redleghunter]

Well, well, well, so Jesus told us to keep the commandments given upon Mount Sinai, in order to enter life. Do you think OT saints entered life the same way?

I think my Hebrews quote answers this.

Not troubling at all. Great verses by the way. It’s your application out of context and not employing the full Biblical revelation of God which concerns me.


Not adding. At the end of the sermon on the mount where Jesus teaches what we are to be like as Kingdom citizens, He qualifies the entire discourse with the following:

Matthew 5: NASB
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

There it is. The standard is we live perfect lives to enter His Kingdom.

Other than Jesus who do you know of living or has lived a perfect life?

Yes only Jesus Who sacrificed His perfect life for us.



Isaiah 53 is the prophecy of the suffering servant. Is this not a prophecy of the coming Messiah Jesus Christ. That He would suffer for our sins?



The term Atonement comes from the Day of Atonement where there were sacrifices performed to forgive the sins of Israel and her people (See Leviticus 16). And in the book of Hebrews picking up on this teaches:

Hebrews 9: NASB

11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committedunder the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.”21And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;(NASB)


So basically saying to God forgive me for falling short of your perfection does not cut it with a Holy God. For what basis are you asking for forgiveness and according to the New Covenant what is available to atone for your sins if the Blood of Jesus Christ does not forgive our sins?

The Beloved Apostle explains where we receive forgiveness:

1 John 1: NASB

5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[EmSw]

I think my Hebrews quote answers this.

I think Ezekiel 18 answers it much better than a writer no one knows.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Here how OT saints had life -
1. he must turn from all his sins he has committed
2. he must keep all His statutes
3. he must do that which is lawful and right

Then God says he will surely live and not die.

Why? Because all his transgressions which he committed will not be mentioned to him. In his righteousness (not the righteousness of another) that he has done, he will live.

We have another grace person who said the OT saints were saved the same way NT saints are saved. But, he will not show anywhere in the OT how saints were saved. He knows it will crush his grace-alone beliefs, just like the verses above do.

 

[redleghunter]

Very true, and Jesus gave us the remedy in keeping His commandments.

You have to keep them perfectly. How's that going for you?

If you fall short, why not listen and heed the words of life from the Savior? If you don't do it the way He says, you will always fall short. It's very simple, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'.

The issue is I heed them all not just a select few.

He gave His words of life. 'If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.' If a man has a penitent heart, and humbles himself before God, why wouldn't he want to listen to and obey the Savior? Something is missing if he dismisses, neglects, or finds excuses not to do what Jesus says about entering life.

You must be perfect as Your Heavenly Father is Perfect. Again how is that working for you?

So, eating and drinking of this 'Truth', man has eternal life. Do you not see His blood signifies Truth, all Truth? It's not His literal, physical blood which man must drink to have eternal life. Here is the Truth Jesus gave us about having eternal life - 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'.

It is those who believe Jesus and His words of Life, who have everlasting life (John 3:16). Eternal life is given the same way in every generation, during OT times, during Jesus' time, and in our time.

Yes and Jesus spoke much about the need for His crucifixion:

"From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life" (Matthew 16:21).

"When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, 'The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.' And the disciples were filled with grief" (Matthew 17:22-23).

"Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!' " (Matthew 20:17-19).

Sounds like Jesus was teaching them the cross and empty tomb meant something. So much so His apostles preached it after His ascension.

He said His body was bread, and His blood was the cup. If you are going to take it literally, why not hang some bread on the cross and pour some wine on the ground? You can't have it both ways; either Jesus was talking literally, or He wasn't. Which is it?

Is the Passover in Exodus in your Bible? What did you not understand from what I posted earlier?

As we can see, there was no forgiveness of sins on the cross. If so, these words of Jesus were useless. But if we look at the meaning of 'remission', we get a picture of atonement. Here is what Strong's says about 'remission' -

1. release from bondage or imprisonment
   
   
2. forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Which is complete blasphemy to deny the Cross and Empty Tomb has nothing to do with our atonement.

Yet you ignored that there is absolutely no atonement in the Holy Scriptures without the shedding of blood (Hebrews 9:22).

By instituting the Lord's Supper Jesus confirmed the New Covenant was in His blood for the forgiveness of sins.

Also. Luke 22:20, Matt. 26:27-28, 1 Cor. 11:26, Mark 14:23

Do you see what 'remission' is? I will enumerate them for you.
1. release from bondage
2. release from imprisonment
3. forgiveness or pardon of sins
4. letting sins go as if they were never committed
5. finally, remission of the penalty

"without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

What is involved is repentance. If you want to get into what repentance involves, we can do that. Besides, Jesus forgave many people without any shedding of physical blood, nor any death on a cross.

Thats due to Christ not being Crucified yet. You keep omitting why Jesus was going to Jerusalem. The Gospels must be comprehended in light of the cross and empty tomb. If not then you have no redemption, substitution and atonement.

 

[redleghunter]

We have another grace person who said the OT saints were saved the same way NT saints are saved. But, he will not show anywhere in the OT how saints were saved. He knows it will crush his grace-alone beli

Considering you ignore 2/3rds of the New Testament I can see why you were not convinced. It must be quite convenient to pick and choose which Holy Spirit inspired words apply and which don't.

With that, I'm sure you reject the following:

Hebrews 11: NASB

1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the men of old gained approval.

3By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please Him,for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.

13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” 19He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.

23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 29By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.

32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts ofrighteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 36and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. 37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

 

[redleghunter]

Okay, we are here. You say keeping the law perfectly is given in Matthew 5:48. If only you would have read the previous verses, you would see it isn't talking about the law at all. You have taken that verse OUT OF CONTEXT. Is it okay for you to do that after you accuse me of it?

Jesus listed what one must be to enter the kingdom. He qualifies this with being perfect as our Heavenly Father is Perfect.

 

[Soyeong]

Well I'm glad you brought 1 John 2:4 up. In the very next chapter, John very kindly qualifies what he means.

1 John 3
23 Now this is his commandment: that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he gave us the commandment. 24 And the person who keeps his commandments resides in God, and God in him. Now by this we know that God resides in us: by the Spirit he has given us.

The commandment of Jesus is to first believe and then to love. THAT is his command. Not to follow the Law.

This is why salvation is by faith and not by works of the Law.

In 1 John 2:3-6, it associates the instruction to follow Christ's commands with the instruction that those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way as he walked. Christ walked in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law and did no hypocritically teach something other than what he practiced. Jesus summarized the Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so the command to love is not distinct from the command to obey the Law. If we believe that Christ gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins, then that should cause to want to go and sin no more in accordance with what the Law instructs.

 

[HatGuy]

Is that all you have to say? What about all the verses which say 'keep His commandments'?

But if you like, I will include verse 23 for you; it doesn't change anything about 'keeping His commandments'.

1 John 3:23
And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Are you happy? Do you see it isn't just believing? It's also loving one another. How does a person love another? How do you see it?

It's about the starting point - and the thing that undergirds and energises the obedience. The way you are posting, you seem to be placing obedience first. As if I just obey I have eternal life. I don't. That was the point of Jesus' discussion with the Rich Young Ruler - he kept all the commandments but yet he did not want to give it all up and follow Christ. He wanted to just keep a list of commandments.

Listen to the words of Jesus:

John 5:24:
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

By believing (faith) you pass from death to life. Only once you have life are you able to obey. Obedience does not and can not happen unless you believe first.

I mean, let's not forget that John 3:16 was actually Jesus' words. In fact, the whole of John 3 explains it perfectly - and this is Jesus speaking. Note the bolded parts below.

John 3:
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

You have to be born again first before you can actually obey. Your works, as Jesus said, must be "carried out in God". The way you are posting you would have me believe that I must simply just do a whole lot of commandments and that's all I need to do. The story of the Rich Young Ruler (Matthew 19:16-30) is a case in point. The young man wanted eternal life. Jesus tells him he must obey the commandments. He says he has. Jesus says that this might be true, but he lacks one thing - he hasn't actually given it all up to follow Christ. If he would do this he would be 'perfect' and have the life he is looking for. But the young man goes away sad because it's easy to keep a bunch of commandments imperfectly, but it's asking too much to give your life away to Jesus - to believe Him, trust Him, and risk with Him.

Here's my second and final point, which addresses your question on 'love'. Yes, 1 John 3:23 says you must believe and then love. I would not deny that. However, my point is that 'love' goes beyond the law.

This is what Jesus is getting at. You want to keep the Law to be saved? That will take you as far as it goes, but not far enough. Rather, you must trust Jesus and give it all up for Jesus. Then, through that faith, you move beyond the Law to love. You "complete" the Law as Jesus did by walking as Jesus walked. Jesus went beyond the Law to love.

This is why Paul says,

Romans 13:8-10
“Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

The problem with your theology as you're presenting it seems to be the following:

1. You seem to want to make Jesus' commandments into prerequisites for salvation. As if the commandments are all that matters and the relationship with the person of Jesus means nothing. As if Jesus just wants you to obey His words but does not care for much more than that. As if one can just do the commandments without a connection to Jesus. But you seem to be making the same mistake as the Pharisees: "You do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." (John 3:38 - 40.)

2. You completely seem to miss the 'born again' part of salvation, as if obedience is a natural thing anyone can just do. It is not and the Bible affirms it is not. One must be born again first and filled with the Spirit. You do not get filled with the Spirit by obedience, but you need the Spirit to do obedience! So you need the Spirit first. And how do you get the Spirit first? You believe in Jesus. And how do you keep the Spirit with you so that your obedience is perfected and made better? You believe. See, faith is what connects you personally to Jesus so that you live in the Spirit and not in the flesh, and that is how obedience happens.

3. By constantly pressing obedience and never mentioning faith you give people nothing that helps them actually obey. Your theology is pressing for an outcome that is important but impossible without a very particular input. It's like me saying to my five year old that they must "just ride a bicycle" but I never give them what they need to ride one. It's a sink or swim theology. You're trying to make it easier by insisting that 'perfection' is unrequired, but this then makes your religion nothing more than a do-good faith. Buddhists and anyone who is just morally good can be a Christian, but believe in whatever god they want. Is that the kind of religion you want to push for? I doubt it. So my encouragement to you is to get your emphasis in the right place, otherwise you have nothing to distinguish your faith from a thousand other faiths.

1 John 3:23 gets the order right - believe and love. The two work hand in hand. Do not emphasise the one over the other, but certainly get the order right, and make sure that you let people know which one leads to the other. And that's why I mentioned 1 John 3:23.

 

[HatGuy]

In 1 John 2:3-6, it associates the instruction to follow Christ's commands with the instruction that those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way as he walked. Christ walked in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law and did no hypocritically teach something other than what he practiced. Jesus summarized the Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so the command to love is not distinct from the command to obey the Law. If we believe that Christ gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins, then that should cause to want to go and sin no more in accordance with what the Law instructs.

See this reply to EmSw.

 

[EmSw]

Jesus listed what one must be to enter the kingdom. He qualifies this with being perfect as our Heavenly Father is Perfect.

Nothing is said of keeping the law perfectly. Perhaps you should go back and read it again. Why must you add to the Word?

 

[JoeP222w]

Will obeying the law whether it is the Ten Commandments or Sharia save you?

No. And God never commands us to follow Sharia, Islam is a false religion.

Romans 3:20-25 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— (22) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Job3315]

There are many verses that describe the Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others, so the Law was primarily given to teach us how to express God's character traits such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. Pointing out our sins has significance only insofar as it lead us to repent and back to obedience by faith. Stopping at pointing out our need for a savior falls far short of what God has in plan for us. God is restoring us to His image and making us to be like Him. Jesus expressed the character traits of the Father through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, and our sanctification is about being made to be like him, to have and to express the same character traits.

There are many verses that describe the Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others, so the Law was primarily given to teach us how to express God's character traits such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. Pointing out our sins has significance only insofar as it lead us to repent and back to obedience by faith. Stopping at pointing out our need for a savior falls far short of what God has in plan for us. God is restoring us to His image and making us to be like Him. Jesus expressed the character traits of the Father through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, and our sanctification is about being made to be like him, to have and to express the same character traits.

From what I am seeing on your other posts it seems like you have a need to correct people.

Please refer to the original post to get to the conclusion of my short answer. I was answering the original question, I wasn’t writting my whole revelation of Jesus Christ and our need to be sanctified by His Spirit and how His word is good to correct us and guide us to Him.

Anyway, I’ll give you a more profound answer:

We are not to follow the Law from an external force (our own strength). We cannot do anything without God. It is His Spirit who compels us from the inside out when we are born again, although I’ve found that many people start their sacrification from an early age without being baptized. Once we are born again we follow the Law of the Spirit which is rooted in Love.

For your reference:
...know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. Galatian 2:16

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. Romans 8:1-11

In conclusion, the answer to the original question “Can the Law or Religion Save You? No, only Jesus can save you by His Spirit, not by humanly following the Law (religion).

 

[betterorworse]

Gods law can only be obtained in God.

Jesus came to save all to follow God.

 

[Soyeong]

From what I am seeing on your other posts it seems like you have a need to correct people.

Please refer to the original post to get to the conclusion of my short answer. I was answering the original question, I wasn’t writting my whole revelation of Jesus Christ and our need to be sanctified by His Spirit and how His word is good to correct us and guide us to Him.

To use an example, if you were to argue that according to Romans 6:14 we are not under God's Law, then I could respond by arguing that according to Romans 6:15 we are still obligated to refrain from what God's Law has revealed to be sin, so we are still under God's Law. Then you could try to counter my position by repeating your original position, then I could repeat my position, and we could go back and forth accomplishing nothing until the end of time unless we started to interact with the other's position by examplining not just why our position is right, but why the other has an incorrect understanding of what they used to support their position. As such, I think correction is an essential part of a meaningful dialogue and indeed Paul said that all Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for correction (2 Timothy 3:16), though that does not mean that I am not open to being corrected myself, which has happened from time to time.

I think that one of the major reasons why people are here is to discuss how to correctly interpret the Bible. However, it is far to common where I try to explain to someone how they have misinterpreted the verses that you used to support their position, but instead of even acknowledging my objection, they simply pull in other verses that they think supports their position and make another argument, and that repeats without anything being corrected. I've sadly seen a number of formal debates where someone lost because they only spoke about why they were right and never said anything about why the other was wrong. I've even started threads where I made an argument for a certain position and where not a single person who responded interacted with my argument by explaining why my reasons for holding my position were wrong, but rather they all responded by making a separate argument for their position, which left me explaining why their arguments were wrong while my argument remained untouched.

We are not to follow the Law from an external force (our own strength). We cannot do anything without God. It is His Spirit who compels us from the inside out when we are born again, although I’ve found that many people start their sacrification from an early age without being baptized. Once we are born again we follow the Law of the Spirit which is rooted in Love.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law and in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, so obedience to God's instructions has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love and has never been about trying to accomplish something through our own efforts.

For your reference:
...know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. Galatian 2:16

Galatians 2:16 is speaking against being justified by works of the law, not God's Law, though it is also true that we are not justified by obeying God's Law. In Romans 2:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of faith with a law that was of works, so works of the law are of works, but he concluded in Romans 3:31 that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so again it is of faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so the same grace and faith by which we are saved also leads us to obey God's instructions.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. Romans 8:1-11

In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, which caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do, and which he served with his flesh. So he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit, which is straightforwardly the same thing, and contrasted them both with the law of sin and death.

While it is true that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ (8:1), it is also true that those who are Christ ought to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:5-6), and he walked in complete obedience to God's Law. God's Law without condemnation for those who are in Christ still remains instructions for how to walk in God's ways and to express His character traits. In Romans 8:3-4, Jesus gave himself to free us from sin so that we could be free to obey the Law that we might meet its righteous requirement. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have a mind set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law.

In conclusion, the answer to the original question “Can the Law or Religion Save You? No, only Jesus can save you by His Spirit, not by humanly following the Law (religion).

While we can't be saved by obeying the Law, we can't be saved by refusing to submit to the Law. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct how to do. Our salvation is from sin, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God is what our salvation from living in sin in disobedience to God looks like, not something done in order to earn our salvation through our own effort. Furthermore, it says that Christ gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works. God's Law is God-breathed and profitable for equipping us to do good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17), so if we believe in what Christ accomplished on the cross, then that should cause us to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's Law (Acts 21:20).

 

[redleghunter]

Nothing is said of keeping the law perfectly. Perhaps you should go back and read it again. Why must you add to the Word?

Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

That’s the standard.

 

[Soyeong]

It's about the starting point - and the thing that undergirds and energises the obedience. The way you are posting, you seem to be placing obedience first. As if I just obey I have eternal life. I don't. That was the point of Jesus' discussion with the Rich Young Ruler - he kept all the commandments but yet he did not want to give it all up and follow Christ. He wanted to just keep a list of commandments.

Listen to the words of Jesus:

John 5:24:
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

By believing (faith) you pass from death to life. Only once you have life are you able to obey. Obedience does not and can not happen unless you believe first.

I mean, let's not forget that John 3:16 was actually Jesus' words. In fact, the whole of John 3 explains it perfectly - and this is Jesus speaking. Note the bolded parts below.

John 3:
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

You have to be born again first before you can actually obey. Your works, as Jesus said, must be "carried out in God". The way you are posting you would have me believe that I must simply just do a whole lot of commandments and that's all I need to do. The story of the Rich Young Ruler (Matthew 19:16-30) is a case in point. The young man wanted eternal life. Jesus tells him he must obey the commandments. He says he has. Jesus says that this might be true, but he lacks one thing - he hasn't actually given it all up to follow Christ. If he would do this he would be 'perfect' and have the life he is looking for. But the young man goes away sad because it's easy to keep a bunch of commandments imperfectly, but it's asking too much to give your life away to Jesus - to believe Him, trust Him, and risk with Him.

Here's my second and final point, which addresses your question on 'love'. Yes, 1 John 3:23 says you must believe and then love. I would not deny that. However, my point is that 'love' goes beyond the law.

This is what Jesus is getting at. You want to keep the Law to be saved? That will take you as far as it goes, but not far enough. Rather, you must trust Jesus and give it all up for Jesus. Then, through that faith, you move beyond the Law to love. You "complete" the Law as Jesus did by walking as Jesus walked. Jesus went beyond the Law to love.

This is why Paul says,

Romans 13:8-10
“Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

The problem with your theology as you're presenting it seems to be the following:

1. You seem to want to make Jesus' commandments into prerequisites for salvation. As if the commandments are all that matters and the relationship with the person of Jesus means nothing. As if Jesus just wants you to obey His words but does not care for much more than that. As if one can just do the commandments without a connection to Jesus. But you seem to be making the same mistake as the Pharisees: "You do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." (John 3:38 - 40.)

2. You completely seem to miss the 'born again' part of salvation, as if obedience is a natural thing anyone can just do. It is not and the Bible affirms it is not. One must be born again first and filled with the Spirit. You do not get filled with the Spirit by obedience, but you need the Spirit to do obedience! So you need the Spirit first. And how do you get the Spirit first? You believe in Jesus. And how do you keep the Spirit with you so that your obedience is perfected and made better? You believe. See, faith is what connects you personally to Jesus so that you live in the Spirit and not in the flesh, and that is how obedience happens.

3. By constantly pressing obedience and never mentioning faith you give people nothing that helps them actually obey. Your theology is pressing for an outcome that is important but impossible without a very particular input. It's like me saying to my five year old that they must "just ride a bicycle" but I never give them what they need to ride one. It's a sink or swim theology. You're trying to make it easier by insisting that 'perfection' is unrequired, but this then makes your religion nothing more than a do-good faith. Buddhists and anyone who is just morally good can be a Christian, but believe in whatever god they want. Is that the kind of religion you want to push for? I doubt it. So my encouragement to you is to get your emphasis in the right place, otherwise you have nothing to distinguish your faith from a thousand other faiths.

1 John 3:23 gets the order right - believe and love. The two work hand in hand. Do not emphasise the one over the other, but certainly get the order right, and make sure that you let people know which one leads to the other. And that's why I mentioned 1 John 3:23.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commands, in Deuteronomy 10:12-11:1, the way to love God with all of our heart and soul is about obey His commands, in John 14:15, Jesus said if we love him, then we will obey His commands, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, in Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Law as being instructions for how to love God and our neighbor, and in Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so obedience to God's instructions has always been about expressing our love for Him. Love can't go beyond the Law because that it what the Law is essentially about how to do.

Likewise, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God is what it looks like to have faith and what it means to believe in Him. While it is true that Abraham believed God and was counted as righteous, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he didn't hesitate to obey God's command to offer Isaac. Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness (Titus 2:14), so he is the object of our faith and obedience to the Law is how we express that faith.

In John 5:46, Jesus said that Moses wrote about him, in Luke 24:27, Jesus began with Moses and the Prophets interpreting to them all of the things in Scripture concerning himself, in Hebrews 10:7, the volume of the scroll is written about Jesus, and in Romans 10:4, Jesus is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith, so the Law is all about Christ and how to have a relationship with him based on faith and love. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been outwardly obeying the Law, but without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole point and counted it all as rubbish. So the right solution to incorrectly obeying the Law is to start obeying it correctly with the right focus, not to stop obeying God.

Being born again is about dying to living in sin and rising again in Christ to a life of obedience by grace through faith.

 

[Soyeong]

Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

That’s the standard.

Wholeness is certainly the goal, but not the requirement in order to become saved.

 

[Job3315]

To use an example, if you were to argue that according to Romans 6:14 we are not under God's Law, then I could respond by arguing that according to Romans 6:15 we are still obligated to refrain from what God's Law has revealed to be sin, so we are still under God's Law. Then you could try to counter my position by repeating your original position, then I could repeat my position, and we could go back and forth accomplishing nothing until the end of time unless we started to interact with the other's position by examplining not just why our position is right, but why the other has an incorrect understanding of what they used to support their position. As such, I think correction is an essential part of a meaningful dialogue and indeed Paul said that all Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for correction (2 Timothy 3:16), though that does not mean that I am not open to being corrected myself, which has happened from time to time.

I think that one of the major reasons why people are here is to discuss how to correctly interpret the Bible. However, it is far to common where I try to explain to someone how they have misinterpreted the verses that you used to support their position, but instead of even acknowledging my objection, they simply pull in other verses that they think supports their position and make another argument, and that repeats without anything being corrected. I've sadly seen a number of formal debates where someone lost because they only spoke about why they were right and never said anything about why the other was wrong. I've even started threads where I made an argument for a certain position and where not a single person who responded interacted with my argument by explaining why my reasons for holding my position were wrong, but rather they all responded by making a separate argument for their position, which left me explaining why their arguments were wrong while my argument remained untouched.



In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law and in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, so obedience to God's instructions has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love and has never been about trying to accomplish something through our own efforts.



Galatians 2:16 is speaking against being justified by works of the law, not God's Law, though it is also true that we are not justified by obeying God's Law. In Romans 2:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of faith with a law that was of works, so works of the law are of works, but he concluded in Romans 3:31 that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so again it is of faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so the same grace and faith by which we are saved also leads us to obey God's instructions.



In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, which caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do, and which he served with his flesh. So he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit, which is straightforwardly the same thing, and contrasted them both with the law of sin and death.

While it is true that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ (8:1), it is also true that those who are Christ ought to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:5-6), and he walked in complete obedience to God's Law. God's Law without condemnation for those who are in Christ still remains instructions for how to walk in God's ways and to express His character traits. In Romans 8:3-4, Jesus gave himself to free us from sin so that we could be free to obey the Law that we might meet its righteous requirement. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have a mind set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law.



While we can't be saved by obeying the Law, we can't be saved by refusing to submit to the Law. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct how to do. Our salvation is from sin, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God is what our salvation from living in sin in disobedience to God looks like, not something done in order to earn our salvation through our own effort. Furthermore, it says that Christ gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works. God's Law is God-breathed and profitable for equipping us to do good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17), so if we believe in what Christ accomplished on the cross, then that should cause us to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's Law (Acts 21:20).

We are to do good works but it is all a process of the Holy Spirit working in us and through us. Again, I can’t do anything on my own, not even love. If you want to go ahead and follow the Law, good luck. I know I am saved by grace. I was separated from God just like everyone else and His Spirit will guide me to His Truth.

I have no issues with people disagreeing with me, my issue is with people who want to over correct the world as it seems you are doing judging by the amount of posts you have been quoting. Its ok to disagree. Maybe a prayer to God would've open my understanding than you dumping your thoughts and opinions when I never asked for them. What you wrote is your perspective. No one has perfect theology anyway and everyone is in a different journey.

If I am wrong Jesus is the first one to come and tell me. I had my reasons to give a simple answer. I just ask you to respect my posts.

 

[Soyeong]

We are to do good works but it is all a process of the Holy Spirit working in us and through us. Again, I can’t do anything on my own, not even love. If you want to go ahead and follow the Law, good luck. I know I am saved by grace. I was separated from God just like everyone else and His Spirit will guide me to His Truth.

I have no issues with people disagreeing with me, my issue is with people who want to over correct the world as it seems you are doing judging by the amount of posts you have been quoting. Its ok to disagree. Maybe a prayer to God would've open my understanding than you dumping your thoughts and opinions when I never asked for them. What you wrote is your perspective. No one has perfect theology anyway and everyone is in a different journey.

If I am wrong Jesus is the first one to come and tell me. I had my reasons to give a simple answer. I just ask you to respect my posts.

I have recently returned to this forum and started reading this thread from the beginning, so my responses to various posts are going to all be clumped together rather than spread out over the course of when this thread was started almost two months ago. So I was not trying to correct the world, but rather I was just engaging in and getting caught up on a thread that's on a topic that interests me. The other option would be to just respond to the most recent posts while ignoring everything that was said previously, which seem to me to be disrespectful of the other participants in this thread, so I did not mean any disrespect to you. I completely agree that I was writing from my perspective, that no one has perfect theology, and everyone is on a different journey.

I also agree that we are saved by grace through faith, which is why we should therefore obey the Law. According to Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do things that perfectly describe what God's Law was given to do. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires. According to 2 Peter 3:17-18, growing in grace is contrasted with being taken away with the error of Lawless men. According to John 1:16-17, grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Law. According to Jude 1:4, the ungodly pervert God's grace into license for immorality. According to Strong's, "grace" is defined as "the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His commands, so grace is the power of God to overcome Lawlessness in our lives and it is by grace that God teaches us to walk in His ways in accordance with His Law.

 

[St_Worm2]

Nothing is said of keeping the law perfectly.

Hi EmSw, actually, the Bible has quite a bit to say about that (incl Matt 5:48, of course), because "keeping the Law" means just that, and no one, save Jesus, has ever been able to do that.

St. James could not make that fact any clearer for us if he tried:

James 2
10 Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the Law.​

Quite frankly, the Pharisees came far closer to "keeping the Law" than anyone else ever has (going so far as tithing their supplies of mint and dill and cummin .. Matthew 23:23), but it was not enough to save them according to Jesus .. Matthew 5:20.

You would like us to believe (as you do) that being 'sort of' obedient to God's laws will save us, that the Cross therefore means nothing and that Jesus' death does not atone for our sins, but the Bible tells us otherwise.

Romans 5
8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.​

Galatians 2
21 If righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.

Galatians 3
21 If a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.​

Of course, ANYTHING/EVERYTHING that the Bible has to say to us becomes meaningless if you choose to take a pair of scissors to it and remove all the parts that you don't like/that you don't agree with, IOW, everything (in your case) that doesn't seem to support your works righteousness presupposition. Like Madalyn Murray O'Hair before you (who told us that she was an atheist was because "even the Bible says: 'There is no God'" .. e.g. Psalms 14:1), you can make the Bible say anything you want it to if you're actually willing to go that far (of course, it stops being the "word of God" and becomes the "word of Madalyn" or the "word of EmSw" instead).

--David

Isaiah 53
5 He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.​

 

[EmSw]

Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

That’s the standard.

And just how is one perfect according to the verse you've taken out of context?