Regeneration

[Loren T.]

@ Arcoe:

The monergist position is that no man would even be inclined to turn from the sin he loves and submit to the God he hates until his heart is changed.

A watered down, liberal view of sin is what is responsible for the idea that this is possible without a heart change. It is based on the presupposition that there is nothing wrong with man. He isn't fallen. He's neutral. It's easy for him to embrace a holy God and turn from his sin. He has no preference or inclination one way or another. Choosing God is as easy as choosing vanilla over chocolate ice cream.

Ummm. Stawmen all over the place here. The arminian position is not that man isn't fallen, or that hes neutral, or that he doesn't need grace before repenting. It is that men are saved once, after the Spirit makes them aware of their condition, they have the means to make a choice for or against him. Not this odd notion that a man has to be regenerated to be regenerated.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I then ask, if an individual does NOT do a turn-about, does NOT repent of his sins, and does NOT believe in Christ, is he regenerated?

We need you to clarify a bit if we're to reply with a yes or no answer.

Are you asking if a person regenerated will eventually respond positively to God?

Or are you asking if there can be a lag time between the sovereign act of regeneration and a person's positive response to God?

Just how long it is possible for a regenerated person can kick against the goads within his spirit put forth by the Holy Spirit is probably something we cannot answer.

However - the Lord was very clear that all those given to the Son and drawn to the Son (through communication with the person following regeneration?) will eventually come to Him.

P.S.

Unlike my full on Calvinist friends, I personally would not venture an opinion as to whether the term "regeneration" refers to an instantaneous act of God before faith or a slower process accompanied by faith.

So long as people agree with the proposition that the elect of God are promised to the Son before the foundation of the world, drawn especially to the Son by the Father, given to the Son as a result of a faith who's author is purely God and not of themselves, sealed for eternity with the Holy Spirit and seated with Christ in Heaven as part of His body - I can go along with a number of ways of phrasing these things.

Of course the trouble is that many non Calvinists in particular do not believe these basic truths about the salvation process.

 

[Hammster]

We need you to clarify a bit if we're to reply with a yes or no answer.

Are you asking if a person regenerated will eventually respond positively to God?

Or are you asking if there can be a lag time between the sovereign act of regeneration and a person's positive response to God?

Just how long it is possible for a regenerated person can kick against the goads within his spirit by put forth by the Holy Spirit is probably something we cannot answer.

However - the Lord was very clear that all those given to the Son and drawn to the Son (through communication with the person following regeneration?) will eventually come to Him.

P.S.

Unlike my full on Calvinist friends, I personally would not venture an opinion as to whether "regeneration" is an instantaneous act of God before faith or a slower process accompanied by faith.

So long as people agree with the proposition that the elect of God are promised to the Son before the foundation of the world, drawn especially to the Son by the Father, given to the Son as a result of a faith who's author is purely God and not of themselves, sealed for eternity with the Holy Spirit and seated with Christ in Heaven as part of His body - I can go along with a number of ways of phrasing these things.

Of course the trouble is that many non Calvinists in particular do not believe these basic truths about the salvation process.

FYI Arcoe is no longer a member.

 

[Marvin Knox]

FYI Arcoe is no longer a member.

To enter into a conversation like this one must of necessity tag their first post to one of another person involved on the thread.

The questions I asked and the opinions I ventured are meant to stimulate conversation by anyone here and not just "Arcoe".

 

[Hammster]

To enter into a conversation like this one must of necessity tag their first post to one of another person involved on the thread.

The questions I asked and the opinions I ventured are meant to stimulate conversation by anyone here and not just "Arcoe".

Not a problem.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Dictionaries - Easton's Bible Dictionary - Regeneration Regeneration [N] http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/regeneration.html

only found in Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5 . This word literally means a "new birth." The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Matthew 19:28 the word is equivalent to the "restitution of all things" ( Acts 3:21 ). In Titus 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life ( 1 John 3:14 ); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ); being born again ( John 3:5 ); a renewal of the mind ( Romans 12:2 ); a resurrection from the dead ( Ephesians 2:6 ); a being quickened ( Ephesians 2:1 Ephesians 2:5 ).
This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God ( John 1:12 John 1:13 ; 1 John 2:29 ; 1 John 5:1 1 John 5:4 ).
As to the nature of the change, it consists in the implanting of a new principle or disposition in the soul; the impartation of spiritual life to those who are by nature "dead in trespasses and sins."
The necessity of such a change is emphatically affirmed in Scripture ( John 3:3 ; Romans 7:18 ; 8:7-9 ; 1 Corinthians 2:14 ; Ephesians 2:1 ; 4:21-24 ).

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/regeneration/

 

[sdowney717]

Regeneration comes before faith because without regeneration you can not see the Kingdom of God. So you will have no desire to believe in Christ as God come in the flesh, being just a natural minded carnal man in the flesh. John 3:3

Before your regenerated, made spiritually alive, you are this here,

Ephesians 2
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

People in the flesh are carnal and at enmity with God. They will not be desiring to be Christians. They can not be submitted to the laws of God, they will not be obedient to Christ and God the Father. They are sons of disobedience.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Oh snap someone resurrected a classic thread.

 

[StillGods]

i wonder though why unsaved people can do good things and recognise good things in life, but in some belief systems apparently 'cant' see good things about God.

that doesnt make sense to me.

 

[StillGods]

also have you ever been so trapped in sin that you wished for a way out? desparately wished for something more powerful than yourself to save you from it all because you are not strobg enough.
an unsaved person can want that desparately but in some belief systems still apparently 'cant' choose God.

that also doesnt make sense to me.

 

[StillGods]

we dont need a work of 'regeneration' first to believe so we can then be regenerated.
we get to 'choose life' / 'believe', then we are saved.

we get to choose life or death like the Bible says.

 

[StillGods]

and that is a sobering thing because we are responsible for our choices.

;( i wish it were not so, but we are held accountable as the Bible says.

 

[Skala]

According to Jesus, one cannot even see/perceive, let alone enter the Kingdom of God, without first being born again. (regenerated) (John 3)

 

[StillGods]

.

 

[StillGods]

According to Jesus, one cannot even see/perceive, let alone enter the Kingdom of God, without first being born again. (regenerated) (John 3)

We can look at the many examples in the Bible of people getting saved... If you believe, -THEN- you are saved (regenerated) (John 11:40, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 12:44-50, Mark 16:16, Rom 10:9-13, Acts 2:21, Acts 16:29-31 etc)

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

We can look at the many examples in the Bible of people getting saved... If you believe, -THEN- you are saved (regenerated) (John 11:40, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 12:44-50, Mark 16:16, Rom 10:9-13, Acts 2:21, Acts 16:29-31 etc)

We urge people to believe, to put faith in Jesus Christ because we walk by faith and not by sight. We cannot see the spiritual realm where God supernaturally regenerates, that is resurrects the dead heart, mind, and soul, which is dead to God, unable to please God, unable to do any good work accompanying salvation. That's is why it is said; "with men this is impossible"; when asked "who then can be saved?". Nicodemus was so blind to the spiritual meaning that he thought Christ was speaking of being physically born again.

 

[ToBeLoved]

We urge people to believe, to put faith in Jesus Christ because we walk by faith and not by sight. We cannot see the spiritual realm where God supernaturally regenerates, that is resurrects the dead heart, mind, and soul, which is dead to God, unable to please God, unable to do any good work accompanying salvation. That's is why it is said; "with men this is impossible"; when asked "who then can be saved?". Nicodemus was so blind to the spiritual meaning that he thought Christ was speaking of being physically born again.

Why would s we bother urging someone to believe when Calvinism says that’s impossible without regeneration. And if someone is already regenerated they have to come to Christ. It’s irresistible.

Makes no sense that faith is even needed in Calvinism.

Non Calvinists believe that faith is needed.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Why would s we bother urging someone to believe when Calvinism says that’s impossible without regeneration. And if someone is already regenerated they have to come to Christ. It’s irresistible.

Makes no sense that faith is even needed in Calvinism.

Non Calvinists believe that faith is needed.

We would urge them knowing GOD CAN regenerate them and that is why preaching is called "foolishness" because it is to those who do not believe, those whom God has not regenerated from dead faith to living faith.

One can just as easily say makes no sense regeneration is even needed in non-Calvinism. If you can choose before regeneration what difference does it make after?

 

[ToBeLoved]

We would urge them knowing GOD CAN regenerate them and that is why preaching is called "foolishness" because it is to those who do not believe, those whom God has not regenerated from dead faith to living faith.

One can just as easily say makes no sense regeneration is even needed in non-Calvinism. If you can choose before regeneration what difference does it make after?

That’s not Biblical.

Never read that knowing God can regerate someone. Do you have scripture for that?

Have you read Romans 4, 5, 6 and 7

 

[ToBeLoved]

One can just as easily say makes no sense regeneration is even needed in non-Calvinism. If you can choose before regeneration what difference does it make after?

Makes perfect sense scripturally. Read how many times scripture says ‘by faith...’ ‘through faith ...’ ‘in faith ...’.

It’s a lot. That’s scriptural.