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What is revealed is He did not sin but was tempted (Matthew 4).Do you believe Jesus had the capacity to sin?
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What is revealed is He did not sin but was tempted (Matthew 4).Do you believe Jesus had the capacity to sin?
Jesus is holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners. He was made higher than the heavens. He became us (in the fact that he had a flesh and blood body), but he was holy. A person or being who is truly holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from sinners does not have the capacity to sin. To say that Jesus had a human nature is to say that he had the ability to do evil. This means that in order to do evil or sin, one must have lusts or bad desires within them in order to carry out or act upon those wrong desires or lusts. Yet, the Bible says he was holy, undefiled and separate from sinners.
Since there are no contradictions in Holy Writ (I know you agree), then when faced with a paradox we examine all the truths and not just some of them.
You said:This is where I wish this discussion could be on a front porch with a refreshing glass of iced tea or lemonade.
You said:My best advice brother is to examine the paradox from the perspective of Jesus Christ as Son of Man and Jesus Christ as Son of God. There is no separation of the truly God and truly human here yet He was/is both and because He was/is we have our wonderful gift of salvation.
You said:Personally? I was raised Roman Catholic and... historic orthodox Christology is taught from the cradle as FACT.
You said:When God in His great Mercy and Grace called me a damned destitute sinner to salvation and repentance, I had to square some doctrines with my new found love the Word of God. So I immediately keyed in on "Son of Man" what exactly does that mean, and then "Son of God" what does that exactly mean and how can He be both and that got me searching. He had to be truly a human being in all aspects of humanity (without sin).
You said:That means Jesus of Nazareth had to have my very own mortal body and how my humanity informs that body. He needed to have a soul and not be a soulless frame of flesh. How he agonized in the garden of Gethsemane really did it for me. Our human will comes from our soul/spirit and Jesus clearly stated in that garden:
Luke 22: KJV
39And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. 40And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. 41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Jason0047 said:It was not an appearance of the killing of a human. A real flesh and blood body died on our behalf.
It wouldn't be the sacrifice of a human, however. It would be, in theory, something unique. Sort of an animal sacrifice, I warrant, but then we would be left to say that because of the death of a talking hybrid not like any one of us in all his everyday doings, and who had no choice in the matter of his death, God had taken the sins of the world on himself, etc. Really?
Jason0047 said:Also, where is it stated in Scripture that Christ has to be like us in some way so we can relate to Him?
You said:Are you supposing that men would be listening to the sermon on the mount as delivered by an alien traveler, a spectre, or some kind of zombie-like being on the order of Frankenstein's monster? And taking lessons in morality from how he behaved? Not in the real world.
So Christians who say Jesus had a human nature who could have potentially sinned (But didn't) are not speaking in light of the whole of Scripture and they are just repeating what they have been told or holding onto what is popular.
Again, the Incarnation addresses this. Jesus Christ Son of the Living God had/has two natures but is one Person. The Divine Logos is eternal.
and while we are talking about that, what if he were not a complete human like ourselves--what would the Resurrection be?
It would mean that something overcame physical death, but it would not suggest that we too would experience the same thing!
There would also have to be more Scripture that would sound more convincing that Jesus took on a human soul or human body. I just don't get the impression in God's Word that He did that.
He physically took on sin in his bod to do that and not his soul
I'm sure you've read a DC comic book once or twice, right? You know the superhero, Martian Manhunter? Cool guy.
You said:Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onnz) is a Martian, not a human being,
You said:but he occasionally takes on the guise and physical form of a human being during which times he goes by the name John Jones, although he is not really human.
Are you saying that God was just pulling a Martian Manhunter here, wearing a disguise, and that He did not become truly human at the Incarnation 2000 years ago?
You said:How, then, can we call Jesus "Immanuel", meaning "God with us", when He never really condescended to our level and was never truly a human being?
You said:I believe Jesus was truly man and truly God, He did take on a human nature and will and mind.
Why do I say this? Look at this quote from Jesus:
Luke 22:42 - "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."
Jesus was clearly distinguishing between His will and the Father's will: He is referring to His human will here, which is connected to His human nature.
You said:If you're saying that Apollinarianism is true and Christ, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, took on a human nature and will, then you're are essentially saying there are three divine wills in the Trinity: that of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, as opposed to the orthodox position of there being one Divine will.
You said:This, of course, leads to tritheism/polytheism, as three divine wills undoubtedly means three gods.
He is a fictional character. So he is not really a cool guy. He is an imaginary character.
This and other statements you have made, Jason, are just YOUR OPINION of
"what MUST BE be IF_____";
they are not shared by Christendom at large, past and present.
You said:I submit that it is you personally who hold some of these things that "could not be IF..." and that the majority of Christians -- again past and present -- beg to differ, looking at the same scriptures you do.
You said:The blood of Christ IS the blood of God because Christ is God.
You said:That also is an OPINION of yours, and as pointed out, some Christians believe souls are eternal, and do not need to be 'created on the spot' for each human life. We are talking 'minority positions' to begin with in this thread, as I guess you are Apollinarian (itself deemed heretical) -- with an extra twist of lime -- that Jesus did not have a human soul?
You said:How many millions of Christians, past and present, have worshipped Him as God, fully believing Him to be truly God and truly man; they have worshipped without any sense of impropriety that they are worshipping anything less than divine because to most of Christendom His full divinity and full humanity is ASSUMED and does NOT bring with it the objections that you say "must be IF X or Y is true."
Why is Martian Manhunter not a cool guy, just because he is fictional and imaginary? His character was a super-HERO, not super-villain. Limited to a short story in the back of Detective Comics for a long time, when comics were just 12 cents apiece and he was just filler for Batman, he was in Justice League from the beginning.
So He had a body -- but it is not a HUMAN Body -- maybe I need to look at the Martian Manhunter post again...
Which way is it Jason, did Jesus have a human body or not, if not, what kind of body was it, or is it just an illusion of a body as in some forms of Docetism?
What is revealed is He did not sin but was tempted (Matthew 4).
3. He is a fictional character who is a representation of an alien. In the real world: People have claimed to have alien encounters; However, they are actually demonic encounters. I explained this in my previous post.
When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that changed their brain. Man took on the ability to choose between good and evil, right and wrong. If Jesus was fully human like us then He had to have had a brain like us. As far as we know people considered him to be fully human.
"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin." Hebrews 4:15
The authors of Hebews here uses a double negative. I do not know why. For me I would use the positive: WE HAVE a high priest who is ABLE to empathize with our weakness. "one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are"
If Jesus was tempted in every way as we are. IF Jesus was fully human then he MUST have had the ability to be able to sin. Yet He proved Himself and He did not sin. He came to live His life as an example for us to follow.
You said:Romans "For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man"
You said:Hebrews 2:18
Because He Himself suffered when He was tempted,
This to me also suggests that Jesus suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience.