Historicism - The Reformers eschatology

[RACarvalho]

There was no such thing as Papal supremacy, the Bishop of Rome was one of many Patriarchs nothing more. The Ostrogoths were Arians and oppressed all Trinitarian Christians including the Church of Rome, so if aiding a Christian Church against the oppression of heretics is called enforcing papacy on the Churches, then you need to read more history.

The Bishop of Rome was the one that got Justinian decree and enforced it through political and military means and we have already more than 1000 years of his works in the record to compare with the prophecies and conclude with certainty that the papacy IS The Antichrist of the prophecies. You are right about the Ostrogoths being Arians and oppressing trinitarian Christians but that does not invalidate the interpretation for the prophecy only says that the little horn would uproot three other horns in its rising . The prophecy doesn't say if that is right or wrong.
So the papacy:
1 - is a power that appeared later (little) among the 10 => Fulfill prophecy
2 - Would rise and uproot three of the 10 => => Fulfill prophecy
3 - Will open it's mouth in blasphemies against God => => Fulfill prophecy
It fulfills the prophecy in time, location, character and deed....

 

[RACarvalho]

Rome is not visited and payed respects by all people, Rome does not sit on seven hills. Mecca sits on seven hills and is payed respects by all people, it’s Kaaba decorated with the finest silk, fragrances, and incense. From Mecca a traditional city there are horses, oil, jewels, and souls of men.

So for you know, The pope is in bed with the Muslin leadership... Its not coincidence that Mohamed dauther is called Fatima and there is still a "Fatima's secret" to be revealed by the Roman Catholic leadership... Also Dr. Salem Abdul Galil said that "our prophet Muhammad will be married to (the Virgin) Mary in paradise"....
According to the European Union (image of the beast) constitution the Vatican have CIVIL RIGHTS and it seems that the Vatican is using Muslin imigration to "clean" Europe of the resistance and when that is done "Muhammad will marry Mary".....
According to Rev. 17:18, the woman is "the great city that rules over the entire world..." when that was written, Rome was the city. The Antichrist also reside in Rome, etc... A lot of prophecies point to Rome.
About Islam, please read the prophecy about the 5th Trumpet....

 

[RACarvalho]

Yet the devil outsmarted Jesus (according to you) by founding the Catholic Church?

No, the Devil FULFILLED the prophecy that Jesus gave to Paul and John (and God gave to Daniel)... That simple.
Nobody outsmart God.
The Antichrist is a consequence of the falling away ....
See 2 Tess. 2:2-4....
Somebody went to the Church and tried to convince the Church that Jesus was about to come.
Then Paul have to explain that Jesus coming will not happen before the falling away (312dc onwards) happens and as a consequence of it, the Antichrist will appear.
God is in control, including today when those three demonic spirits are running the Globalization.... Even if they are successful and the pope start to use the Muslins to kill true Christians (it is not clear unto where the "gathering" will go) around the globe, it will still be under God authorization and control.

 

[Chinchilla]

Why would the Pope want to work against God?

Who else would be a better candidate than heretic pope ? Actually there was about 900 year prophecy that Petrus Romanus will be the last pope and he will be heretic and oppose God .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Who else would be a better candidate than heretic pope ? Actually there was about 900 year prophecy that Petrus Romanus will be the last pope and he will be heretic and oppose God .

What, you haven't heard of false prophecies?
So then, the Jews are just gonna let a pope waltz right into their Sanctuary and have a seat in it? [that's IF the Jews ever build one for him to sit in]

2 Thessalonians 2:4 [Daniel 11:36]
He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship,
so that he, in the Sanctuary of God, as God to be seated<2523>, shewing himself off that he is God

 

[Chinchilla]

What, you haven't heard of false prophecies?
So then, the Jews are just gonna let a pope waltz right into their Sanctuary and have a seat in it? [that's IF the Jews ever build one for him to sit in]

2 Thessalonians 2:4 [Daniel 11:36]
He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship,
so that he, in the Sanctuary of God, as God to be seated<2523>, shewing himself off that he is God

the antichrist yes , but there is also a false phopet , fake pope can be the false prophet in future

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

What did Pope Vigilius do that makes him Anti-Christ? What Pope in 1590 are you referring to when you say they became a false prophet? What do you make of the good Popes who actually helped Christianity and the world in General in between that time?

 

[Barney2.0]

So for you know, The pope is in bed with the Muslin leadership... Its not coincidence that Mohamed dauther is called Fatima and there is still a "Fatima's secret" to be revealed by the Roman Catholic leadership... Also Dr. Salem Abdul Galil said that "our prophet Muhammad will be married to (the Virgin) Mary in paradise"....
According to the European Union (image of the beast) constitution the Vatican have CIVIL RIGHTS and it seems that the Vatican is using Muslin imigration to "clean" Europe of the resistance and when that is done "Muhammad will marry Mary".....
According to Rev. 17:18, the woman is "the great city that rules over the entire world..." when that was written, Rome was the city. The Antichrist also reside in Rome, etc... A lot of prophecies point to Rome.
About Islam, please read the prophecy about the 5th Trumpet....

Mohammed marrying the Virgin Mary in paradise? That’s not supported in any Islamic scripture and would be considered blasphemous by Muslims. The Catholic Fatima has origins in the Portuguese town of Fatima, named after a supposed Muslim princess who converted to Christianity named Fatima. There is no connection between the Catholic Fatima with Mohammed’s daughter other then the Muslim princess who derived her name from Mohammed’s daughter. So the Catholic Church wants Muslims to go to Europe and clear resistance from who exactly? If that’s they’re plan it’s failing miserably, you sound like one of those extreme right wing conspiracy theorists.

 

[Barney2.0]

No, the Devil FULFILLED the prophecy that Jesus gave to Paul and John (and God gave to Daniel)... That simple.
Nobody outsmart God.
The Antichrist is a consequence of the falling away ....
See 2 Tess. 2:2-4....
Somebody went to the Church and tried to convince the Church that Jesus was about to come.
Then Paul have to explain that Jesus coming will not happen before the falling away (312dc onwards) happens and as a consequence of it, the Antichrist will appear.
God is in control, including today when those three demonic spirits are running the Globalization.... Even if they are successful and the pope start to use the Muslins to kill true Christians (it is not clear unto where the "gathering" will go) around the globe, it will still be under God authorization and control.

Here’s what you said:

Because he is not a converted Christian but a servant of the devil - he is the Antichrist.
Please notice that the papacy institution was put in place by ROMAN POLITICIANS.
The bishop of Rome himself was elected by the Emperor, a politician.
Through the preaching of the Gospel, Jesus detroned the devil during the Roman empire for people would stop worshiping the Emperor to only worship Jesus.
The devil counteracted creating a "christian leadership" to control and destroy the true church(papacy was put in place by a Roman politician and not created up until 500 years AFTER Jesus).
See, this is history already, you don't need faith to believe in that, you just need to compare the papacy actions with what is written in Daniel, Paul letters and Revelation and see that it is the Antichrist.
Jesus didn't create an institution... Jesus created a Family....
Eklesia (Church in Greek) is just a gathering of believers, exactly how Jesus said: Were two or three are gathered in my name there I will be with them....
The papacy is a devil creation and their acts and the witnessing of the prophecies prove that.

You said the devil managed to counter Jesus, secondly the Catholic Church is the one who initiated the Crusades to fend off the Muslims, while Martin Luther and his “reformation” friends were outside the gates of Vienna trying to convince the defenders to surrender to the Muslims, as the Muslims were “righteous judgement from God.”

 

[Barney2.0]

The Bishop of Rome was the one that got Justinian decree and enforced it through political and military means and we have already more than 1000 years of his works in the record to compare with the prophecies and conclude with certainty that the papacy IS The Antichrist of the prophecies. You are right about the Ostrogoths being Arians and oppressing trinitarian Christians but that does not invalidate the interpretation for the prophecy only says that the little horn would uproot three other horns in its rising . The prophecy doesn't say if that is right or wrong.
So the papacy:
1 - is a power that appeared later (little) among the 10 => Fulfill prophecy
2 - Would rise and uproot three of the 10 => => Fulfill prophecy
3 - Will open it's mouth in blasphemies against God => => Fulfill prophecy
It fulfills the prophecy in time, location, character and deed....

You have nothing in Church history to back up your claims, your basically looking at scripture as most Protestants do by asking yourself what does this mean to me and decided it fits the Catholic Church. Again, this is merely your own interpretation of prophecy not valid Church interpretations.

 

[jgr]

You have nothing in Church history to back up your claims, your basically looking at scripture as most Protestants do by asking yourself what does this mean to me and decided it fits the Catholic Church. Again this is merely your own interpretation of prophecy not valid Church interpretations.

Virtually every leading Reformer came out of the apostate papal system. They had nothing to gain, and everything to lose (including their lives which many did); by doing so.

But they could no longer ignore the abuses of the system, and the witness of the prophetic Scriptures.

We owe the spiritual freedoms which we enjoy today in no small part to their vision, faith, and sacrifice.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Virtually every leading Reformer came out of the apostate papal system. They had nothing to gain, and everything to lose (including their lives which many did); by doing so.

But they could no longer ignore the abuses of the system, and the witness of the prophetic Scriptures.

We owe the spiritual freedoms which we enjoy today in no small part to their vision, faith, and sacrifice.

Agree.
Which begs the question, what would Christianity be like today w/o the Reformation?

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/was-god-behind-the-reformation.2562238/
Was God behind the Reformation?

Go Tyndale!

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/william-tyndale.html

A clergyman hopelessly entrenched in Roman Catholic dogma once taunted Tyndale with the statement, "“We are better to be without God’s laws than the Pope’s”".

Tyndale was infuriated by such Roman Catholic heresies, and he replied, “"I defy the Pope and all his laws.
If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than you!"”

Tyndale was then strangled and burnt at the stake in the prison yard, Oct. 6, 1536. His last words were, "Lord, open the king of England's eyes."
This prayer was answered three years later, in the publication of King Henry VIII’s 1539 English “Great Bible”.

 

[jgr]

Agree.
Which begs the question, what would Christianity be like to w/o the Reformation?
.

Well before the time of the Reformation, the papacy could no longer be called Christianity.

Without the Reformation, the apostasy would only have continued.

 

[dms1972]

Are all popes, anti-christian, can their be no genuine reformers? What about anti-christian trends in Protestantism? Some might see the only anti-Christian trends in Protestantism as those leaning towards Rome. But what about non-celebate homosexuals in the Bishopric of some of the Protestant churches, as well as other doctrinal aberrations?

 

[Barney2.0]

Virtually every leading Reformer came out of the apostate papal system. They had nothing to gain, and everything to lose (including their lives which many did); by doing so.

But they could no longer ignore the abuses of the system, and the witness of the prophetic Scriptures.

We owe the spiritual freedoms which we enjoy today in no small part to their vision, faith, and sacrifice.

The so called “reformers” were staunch Roman Catholics, they had no intention of founding their own sects, their goal was to reform the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was already in Schism when it happened, the reformers just went in Schism further. These reformers had everything to gain actually, they originally thought promoting such thoughts would get them high places in the Church, while in reality it got them excommunicated. So they continued in their heretical teachings to gain followers of their own to challenge the Catholic Church into submitting to them. We owe nothing to their perverted heretical ideas, we owe the present confusion of Christianity in the West to the so called “reformers,” we owe this stab at Christendoms heart to the so called “reformers.”

 

[jgr]

The so called “reformers” were staunch Roman Catholics, theynhad no intention of founding their own sects, their goal was to reform the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was already in Schism when it happened, the reformers just went in Schism further. They reformers had everything to gain actually, they originally thought promoting such thoughts would get them high places in the Church while it got them excommunicated. So they continued in their heretical teachings to gain followers of their own to challenge the Catholic Church into submitting to them. We owe nothing to their perverted heretical ideas, we owe the present confusion of Christianity in the West to the so called “reformers,” we owe this stab at Christendoms heart to the so called “reformers.”

Whatever schism the papacy may have been in did nothing to curb its continuing abuse and apostasy. The Reformers recognized that it was beyond reclamation.

If the Reformers thought that identifying the apostate papacy as antichrist, and as a fulfillment of the prophecies in Daniel 7, 2 Thessalonians 2, et al; would get them high places in the church; they were obviously suffering from a misapprehension.

They in fact labored under no such illusion, instead recognizing the vision, faith, and sacrifice which they knew would be necessary for emancipation from the bondage of the Church's spiritual dark ages.

By God's grace and mercy, they were successful; and we today are the beneficiaries.

Thanks be to God for the Reformers and the Reformation.

 

[jgr]

Are all popes, anti-christian, can their be no genuine reformers? What about anti-christian trends in Protestantism? Some might see the only anti-Christian trends in Protestantism as those leaning towards Rome. But what about non-celebate homosexuals in the Bishopric of some of the Protestant churches, as well as other doctrinal aberrations?

There have always been, and will always be, antichrists of various forms within the Church, as John declared in his epistles. The apostate papacy was the primary antichrist of its era, as the Reformers accurately recognized.

That is not to say that catholicism did not begin commendably. The Church owes an unrepayable debt to early defenders of the faith such as Jerome, Chrysostom, Augustine, and numerous others. Their contributions to the Church's survival and continuation are undeniable. It is certainly also true that there are many genuine Christians within Catholicism today. But it is also true that various antichristian characteristics of the apostate papacy still linger.

Today, additional antichristian manifestations appear in various guises. One such guise is the dispensational attempt to racialize the gospel by exhuming genetic distinction in the form of the two peoples of God (genetic Israel, and the Church) heterodoxy, which Scripture undeniably declares was eliminated at Calvary (Romans 2:28,29; Galatians 3:28,29; Ephesians 2:14). Another such guise is the attempted postponement of the recognition of Christ's perfect fulfilled accomplishments at Calvary described in the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27.

The lessons are evident and sobering. The true Church must ever maintain its vigilance, its unwavering commitment to “...things which become sound doctrine” (Titus 2:1), and to “...earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 3).

These are the antidotes to the antichrists.

 

[Erik Nelson]

If anyone wants to comment and share ideas about the below, please go ahead!:

A short summary on the history of the Antichrist:

Warning: This is an extremely condensed summary of the fulfillment of Bible Prophecy about the Antichrist in history during the last 2000 years. There are way more details in Revelation that where perfectly accomplished in History that are not part of this summary.

For complete details, please refer to:

“Romanism and the Protestant reformation from the stand point of prophecy” – Henry Grattan Guinness

“Horae Apocalypticae” – Edward Bishop Elliot

Summary:

312AD – Constantine (a politician) declares Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire and the clay (the believers, Isaiah 64:8) mixes with the Iron (Rome) – Fulfilling Daniel 2:33. The great apostasy of II Tess. 2 starts for many compromise the faith for power and prestige.

476AD – Western Roman Empire falls – 10 kingdoms raise from that fall – the 10 fingers of clay and Iron of Daniel 2 and the 10 horns of Daniel 7:24, Revelation 13 and 17. The only leadership position left standing from the former empire is the Bishop of Rome, the little horn.

533AD – Justinian (a politician) declares the primacy of the Bishop of Rome – The little horn of Daniel 7:8 gains power.

538AD – After delivering the city of Rome from the Ostrogoth, Justinian decree is enforced in Rome – Antichrist (Papacy) is set in power at Rome. 2 Tess. 2:4 fulfilled. The Ostrogoth were the last one of the three horns (the other two where the Herulli and the Vandals) that the little horn would destroy in its rising according to the prophecy in Daniel 7:8.

1590AD – Pope become the False Prophet of Revelation 13 when they create a false interpretation of Daniel 9:27 (antichrist in a 7 year tribulation in the future) to hide the fact, preached by Protestants, that the history of the papacy fulfills everything that is told in the bible about the antichrist and therefore the papacy is the Antichrist foretold by Daniel, Paul and John.

1798AD – Napoleon arrests the Pope and seize his properties, inflicting the mortal wound to the first Beast (Europe dominated by the Pope) of Rev. 13. The 1st beast of revelation 13 reigns exactly 1260 years (42 prophetic months, 538 - 1798) as the prophecy states in Rev. 13:5.

1929AD – The mortal wound is healed and the Vatican becomes once again a country in which the king is the pope – the beast is healed but this time clothes itself like the Lamb Jesus (piety and humble) but continues to speak like the devil (false/against Christ doctrines).

1954AD – The False Prophet of Revelation 13(the Pope) starts creating the image of the previous beast – The European Union as foretold in Revelation 13

Present – Under the unified leadership of the Popery three powers - the economic powers of Europe (Dragon), the political powers of the United Europe (Beast) and the pope himself (False Prophet) - work to gather the world (Globalization) against God for Armageddon – the Final fight against God is on the works, fulfilling Revelation 16:13.

What is the NUMBER of the BEAST?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Yet the devil outsmarted Jesus (according to you) by founding the Catholic Church?

Equivocation fallacy. The papacy came later in the history of the Catholic Church, among other developments.

As an aside I'll offer a Scripture and a thought:

Matthew 24:24 “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The clause IF tells me it is not possible to deceive the elect, not because of anything special in them, but because of God, and His Spirit working in them. The "s" of "christs" and "s" of "prophets" at least in English is not singular but plural, meaning more than one. Now on to the main point, these false christs and false prophets are of such character, such an influence, so intoxicating, were it possible they would deceive the elect like the rest. Finally the word "rise", indicates power, which gives influence, and signs and wonders have an intoxicating effect. So considering the centrality of Catholicism to EO and every main Protestant denomination in the history and development of the Church, I would expect satan to be in history, "the prince of the power of the air", so I would not rule out the office of the papacy, indeed is there a more prominent place from which to wreck massive deception in Christiandom?

Be that as it may, I am not an anti-Catholic, not even close, and have no problem thinking of myself as a Reformed Catholic.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Equivocation fallacy. The papacy came later in the history of the Catholic Church, among other developments.

As an aside I'll offer a Scripture and a thought:

Matthew 24:24 “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The clause IF tells me it is not possible to deceive the elect, not because of anything special in them, but because of God, and His Spirit working in them. The "s" of "christs" and "s" of "prophets" at least in English is not singular but plural, meaning more than one. Now on to the main point, these false christs and false prophets are of such character, such an influence, so intoxicating, were it possible they would deceive the elect like the rest. Finally the word "rise", indicates power, which gives influence, and signs and wonders have an intoxicating effect. So considering the centrality of Catholicism to EO and every main Protestant denomination in the history and development of the Church, I would expect satan to be in history, "the prince of the power of the air", so I would not rule out the office of the papacy, indeed is there a more prominent place from which to wreck massive deception in Christiandom?

Be that as it may, I am not an anti-Catholic, not even close, and have no problem thinking of myself as a Reformed Catholic.

Supposedly, Saint Dominic converted all of Rome to Christianity in the third century AD.

Edit supposedly St Lawrence converted all of Rome to Christianity in 258 AD.

are you telling everyone to doubt the sincerity of Christian conversion of those who claim to be Christian?

If one can't trust "Christians" in Rome, who can be trusted?