Soul Sleep Biblically Impossible

Saint Steven

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You'd have to ask Jesus. He's the one be who said it was a vision. Would you just ignore the evidence that obviously shows this isn't literal just to hold a theological position? How was Jesus resurrected before He was rucified? How were they literally there alive at the time when years later the apostle Peter stated plainly that it was the coming of Christ?
The NIV doesn't use the word "vision" in any of the three gospel accounts.
 
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Dig4truth

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Redleghunter: "Here I thought the dead can't hear."


John 5:25-29 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



Think about this passage of Scripture for a minute. The "dead will hear". "All who are in the tombs will hear His voice and will come forth".

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.
 
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Butch5

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Actually I gave you the Biblical definition of 'resurrection.' You will have to find a different term for what you propose.

And, I gave you God's definition of the resurrection. In it He said nothing about reuniting "us" with our bodies. Read Ezekiel 37. He said He'd put the bones back together, cover them with flesh and put "His" breath into them and they would live. It's the same thing Moses recorded.
 
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Butch5

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I said what you propose of the human complete makeup is materialistic---aka materialism.

Materialism is the belief that matter is the only thing that exists and that all things can be reduced to matter (and energy since matter is a form of energy). Therefore, materialism would state that all things in the universe, including mankind, are necessarily restricted to operate within the bounds of physical laws. The human mind would cease to exist upon death because the physical brain ceases to function. Materialism would deny the continuation of the mind after death, and would also deny any and all miracles.
I said no such thing. I haven't deny the breath or spirit, I've said it's what gives man life. The human mind ceases at death, not because it's matter, but because God's breath is no longer in the man. In Job we find that the breath of God give him understanding.

8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)
Then h
We've seen from Gen 2:7 that there is a breath in man, it is the breath of life. Job says the same. Then he says the breath of the almighty gives him understanding. The breath of God in man give him life and that is why his brain can function. Your claim of materialism is base. I've not made that claim at all.
 
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Saint Steven

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And, I gave you God's definition of the resurrection. In it He said nothing about reuniting "us" with our bodies. Read Ezekiel 37. He said He'd put the bones back together, cover them with flesh and put "His" breath into them and they would live. It's the same thing Moses recorded.
You gave him "God's definition"?
How is he going to trump that? You played the "God" card.
It's not just your opinion, it's "God's definition". So there. (you win) Right?
 
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Butch5

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Here's the complete passage:

2 Corinthians 5: NASB
1For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

{Paul shows here the distinction between our mortal bodies and our yet future resurrected incorruptible bodies....Resurrected bodies the subject and properly modified}

2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

{When we are resurrected we will not be 'naked' without a body. Still speaking of the Resurrection}

4For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

{The desire is to have our mortal bodies swallowed up by life to be clothed with resurrected bodies. I would gather that is everyone's desire, to be the ones who are immediately translated and not die first. Paul leaves here hanging meaning does not address what unclothed means. Yet unclothed is an option}


6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

{Paul addresses here the status of the believer whose earthly tent has perished, yet has not received their building from God (verses 1-5). He describes this status as while we are at home in the mortal body we are absent from the Lord. Then addresses the converse of verse 6 in verse 8 by stating we should prefer to be absent from the mortal body and to be at home with the Lord.}

The resurrection is addressed in verses 1-4. The intermediary state in verses 6-9.

Confirmation in Philippians 1:
Philippians 1: NASB
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

{Paul making the distinction of living on in the flesh (mortal body) is fruitful labor for him. He says to die is gain. He could be referencing here either the resurrection or immediate presence with the Lord or both.}


23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

{Here we get more information. He has a desire that if he dies to depart and be with Christ and that is much better. Makes no mention of the Resurrection here, it is about presence with Christ.}

24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

{Paul referencing the resurrection here is categorically impossible. He makes the distinction that departing them (the Philippians) means he will be with Christ (verse 23) yet to remain with them is more necessary for them. If Paul is referencing the resurrection here, it would mean he is being resurrected and leaving the Philippians behind.}

The key teaching in both passages is the believer's presence with Christ. If a body is decaying in the grave then there is something of 'us' which is present with Christ. That is the apostolic teaching.

Again, it's not apostolic teaching. Firstly you have to realize that you are reading and interpreting a text. Paul is not speaking to you. How you interpret that text is based on your presuppositions. If you already believe that there is some part of man that lives on after death then it's not surprising that you would see that here. However, as I've pointed out at least twice now, Paul, speaking of dead Christians said, if there is no resurrection then those who had died in Christ had perished. Note that he used the past tense. If there is no resurrection they had already perished. So we know that Paul didn't believe in an intermediate state where Christians were with the Lord. His statements about leaving and being with the Lord are easily understood. You're assuming that it is immediate, yet Paul gives no time frame in his statement. Given that the Scriptures equate death with sleep we can see what Paul means. When one goes to sleep they are not conscious of their surroundings. So, when they wake up it's the next thing they know. So to the one who slept it seems immediate even if it's not. So, for Paul, if he died, the very next thing he'd know is being with Christ at the resurrection.

Think about what you posted. Paul said he would rather go and be with Christ but it was better for them if he stayed there. If that was the case then why wouldn't they all go and immediately be with Christ? If that's what was better then one would think Paul would have told them so and they could all go and be with Christ.

And, as I pointed out 2 Cor 5 is about the resurrection. It's not just a few verses. Note also that Paul says that he wants to be overclothed or clothed upon so that he is not found naked. That's a flat refutation of what you're claiming. Being found naked refers to being without a body. This is one what Greeks believed and Paul is refuting it. He says that mortality will be swallowed up by immortality. In other words there is no time when he is without a body.
 
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ewq1938

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Remember what a vision actually is and means according to the Greek. Our English concept of a "vision" is different than what it is in the Greek:

A vision means something visual seen, not an imaginary vision of things that aren't real.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

G3705
??´?aµa
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.

Mark makes this clear:


Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.


And so does Luke.

Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
 
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Butch5

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The valley of bones can be a depiction of the Resurrection. As making stones into sons of Abraham explains how God can call Whom He pleases. It is not prophesying 'how' the Resurrection will take place, unless you view we are not the same 'us' upon resurrection. Ezekiel 37 is very impersonal showing how God can revive a nation from dry bones. The vision is explained here:

Ezekiel 37: NASB
11Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.’ 12“Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13“Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. 14“I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,” declares the LORD.’”



Again the vision is explained and is not depicting the Resurrection on the last day. It can be a shadow or type but the prophecy addresses the restoration of national Israel in the land.

That's what's going to happen in the resurrection. Remember that believers are Israel. Paul said that the Gentiles have been grafted in and he also said those who have been baptized into Christ are Abraham's seed. Also, it is the land that believers will inherit, not heaven. Believers will live on the earth Revelation says that God will dwell with men. What we see in Ezekiel 37 is just watch we can expect to see. Also, notice that in chapter 37 it is individuals being resurrection not a nation.


Meaning after death there is no more 'us' but bones and dust. Then why did Jesus call forth Lazarus? He called him by name and did not say "breath come to Lazarus."

John 11: NASB
38So Jesus, again being deeply moved within, came to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39Jesus said, “Remove the stone.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days.” 40Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?” 41So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42“I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me.” 43When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” 44The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”

Here I thought the dead can't hear.

He obviously did not have his resurrected body as he died again (unless one thinks he's hanging out somewhere).

There is an "us" it is the bones and dust. You're assuming the "us" is something other than the physical body but you have nothing to support that claim other than a few passages which you must interpret. There is nothing that states this. Gen 2:7 tells us how God made man and what He used to do so. It's a physical stuff, the dust of the earth.

Regarding Lazarus God did what we saw in Ezekiel 37 when Jesus spoke the words.
 
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Butch5

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Can you explain to me your view of the Person and Nature of Jesus Christ? I don't think we are going to get anywhere without discussing the Incarnation. What is your view of Person and Nature of Jesus Christ?

I don't see how this bears on the subject, but, I believe what John said. In the beginning the word was with God and the word became flesh. The Son of God that existed in the OT became flesh as Jesus
 
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Butch5

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You gave him "God's definition"?
How is he going to trump that? You played the "God" card.
It's not just your opinion, it's "God's definition". So there. (you win) Right?

Hopefully, it's not about winning. Hopefully, it's about figuring out the truth. With all of the error that is preached today in the name of Christianity, just look at all of the denominations, we really should be seeking what the Bible really teaches rather than trying to protect doctrine. Doesn't that get old? I mean we saw it through the dark ages when the Catholic Church controlled what people believed and then with the Reformation which controlled what people believed. I would hope that in this rather unique time in history where we can actually discuss the Scriptures openly without persecution that we could finally take a close look at the Scriptures with an open honest heart and seek the truth.
 
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Saint Steven

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Hopefully, it's not about winning. Hopefully, it's about figuring out the truth. With all of the error that is preached today in the name of Christianity, just look at all of the denominations, we really should be seeking what the Bible really teaches rather than trying to protect doctrine. Doesn't that get old? I mean we saw it through the dark ages when the Catholic Church controlled what people believed and then with the Reformation which controlled what people believed. I would hope that in this rather unique time in history where we can actually discuss the Scriptures openly without persecution that we could finally take a close look at the Scriptures with an open honest heart and seek the truth.
Yes. But can you do it without playing the "God" card?
 
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Butch5

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Matthew 17:9 Καὶ καταβαινόντων αὐτῶν ἐκ τοῦ ὄρους ἐνετείλατο αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγων· μηδενὶ εἴπητε τὸ ὅραμα ἕως οὗ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐκ νεκρῶν ἐγερθῇ. (Matt. 17:9 BGT)
 
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redleghunter

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And, I gave you God's definition of the resurrection. In it He said nothing about reuniting "us" with our bodies. Read Ezekiel 37. He said He'd put the bones back together, cover them with flesh and put "His" breath into them and they would live. It's the same thing Moses recorded.
The same Moses at the Transfiguration?
 
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redleghunter

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8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)
Then h
We've seen from Gen 2:7 that there is a breath in man, it is the breath of life. Job says the same. Then he says the breath of the almighty gives him understanding. The breath of God in man give him life and that is why his brain can function. Your claim of materialism is base. I've not made that claim at all.
Now back up to Genesis 1:

Genesis 1: NASB
26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

What does it mean to be created in the image and according to the likeness of God?
 
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