Soul Sleep Biblically Impossible

[Daniel Martinovich]

Add to the above both John 11:17-44 and John 5:24 sheds light on this. That the Resurrection is the final Promise but we pass from death to eternal life the moment we believe.

That’s is using the term figuratively which we do in both Greek and English.

 

[Saint Steven]

The Bible also says most people never know.

Most people? (I guess that's true)
And right after that, "... these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit." - vs 10 --- (context = our best friend)

1 Corinthians 2:9-10
However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

What makes you think it is a vision? Jesus was transfigured and the apostles heard the Voice of the Father. Does this make it a partial vision?

And if a vision, why would God use dead people in a vision who according to you should be in the grave?

Thanks.

Above a reply to
Butch5 said: ↑
No it doesn't. If you read Mathew's account of the Transfiguration you'll see that what they saw was a vision. Both Moses and Elijah were dead.

I oiffer these Bible verses

Resurrection of Moses
Jude 1
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Translation of Elijah
2 Kings 2
And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind,
2 Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Moses represents the dead in CHRIST that will be resurrected and Elijah represents those who will be alive at the second coming of the LORD JESUS CHRIST

They are not dead they are in Heaven with Jesus

 

[Saint Steven]

1 Corinthians 15:52 (WEB), in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.

If they will be raised, that does not necessarily mean they are already raised.

Daniel 12 (World English Bible):
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the expanse; and those who turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run back and forth, and knowledge shall be increased.”

A day of judgement is coming.

Mark 8 (WEB)
35 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake and the sake of the Good News will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? 37 For what will a man give in exchange for his life? 38 For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him, when he comes in his Father’s glory, with the holy angels.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

 

[Saint Steven]

A vision doesn't mean it wasn't real. It means it was seen by someone's eyes. Moses and Elijah aren't dead, nor sleeping. They are awake and able to talk and do things like any one can.

Right. (sort of)

Peter offered to make three shelters. Why would you make shelters for a vision? See the Matthew account. Doesn't use the word vision.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.

I'm not a conditionalist, but this is a prooftext they often use.

In my opinion, this is just King Solomon referring to the fact that before Christ came, there was a "soul sleep" in a sense, i.e. the righteous went to sleep in the Bosom of Abraham, until Christ freed them.

Thoughts?

Like many other subjects in the OT. What happenes after our flesh and blood bodies died was not fully revealed. This is especially true about the subject of resurrection. When Jesus came and taught he shed much more light on the subject. However like many other subjects. It took quite a while for good understanding of those subjects to develope in the apostles hearts. Sometimes decades. Some things could never fully develope, like end times teachings that take hindsight for full development.
This is why when Jesus used the word ressurection to say the patriarchs were alive the people were astonished by his doctrine. Like I say in my article. If a Christian’s child dies and to comfort them the brothers and sisters remind them they are in heaven with Jesus and happy. It’s true, everyone de facto believes that. However if you were to say he is in heaven, resurrected and with Jesus you’ll get puzzled looks and perhaps a call from the pastor. Yet both statements are saying the same thing and Jesus astonished the crowd by using the later statement.

 

[Saint Steven]

Deuteronomy 32:50

“And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:”

That's good. Also...

There are 29 references to "the realm of the dead" in the NIV Bible. One is in Acts chapter two. Why have a realm for those in a state of unconscious nonexistence?

 

[Saint Steven]

Mark 12:26-27
Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[redleghunter]

You said the body returned to God, prove it.

Where did I say the body returned ?

Edit see below. I see how my statement without punctuation can be unclear.

 

[redleghunter]

Sorry brother, it does not say that.

Let me clarify. The dead mortal body is in the grave yet we are present with the Lord.

Looked back and one could conclude I meant the material body was present. The inner man immaterial is present with the Lord.

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[redleghunter]

Paul was talking to leaving his flesh and then being with the Lord.
absent from the body - present with the Lord
depart - as in not live in his flesh

He was going to be away from those people - including believers. He was not referring to the resurrection of the just, as he would not be leaving everyone behind.

to remain with you-or depart from you
leaves his flesh

Job said that in his flesh he shall see God.

Jesus Christ will bring the sleeping saints -with Him from heaven.

Thanks for the response. It’s your position that when our outer man the flesh fails and dies, the mortal body is in the grave yet our immaterial inner man is present with the Lord?

If so I agree.

 

[redleghunter]

That’s is using the term figuratively which we do in both Greek and English.

Jesus spoke of eternal life figuratively?

Our very salvation is eternal life. We either have it or we don’t. Jesus is telling us when we pass from one to the other.

 

[Dig4truth]

Redleghunter: "Regardless what’s accomplished by God showing something to the apostles which you would conclude is not viable?
Meaning it could not really be Moses because he was in the grave and we don’t have an immaterial inner man? I’m assuming this is your presupposition."


As is your presupposition that we have an immortal soul.

Ez 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[redleghunter]

Redleghunter: "Regardless what’s accomplished by God showing something to the apostles which you would conclude is not viable?
Meaning it could not really be Moses because he was in the grave and we don’t have an immaterial inner man? I’m assuming this is your presupposition."


As is your presupposition that we have an immortal soul.

Ez 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

We indeed have an immaterial inner man being renewed day by day which Paul opposes to our material outer man which is decaying.

16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, yet our inner self is being renewed day by day.17For our light and temporary affliction is producing for us an eternal glory that far outweighs our troubles. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:16-18)

 

[Dig4truth]

You said "immaterial" as I said "immortal". Are you equating the two or making a distinction?

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Jesus spoke of eternal life figuratively?

Our very salvation is eternal life. We either have it or we don’t. Jesus is telling us when we pass from one to the other.

Used the word resurrection figuratively to describe eternal life with God. Just like he uses the word dead figuratively: "Let the dead bury their dead."

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Dig4truth]

That's. Good one vinsight4u, it clearly refers to the resurrection.

I Cor 15:20-23 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

It clearly says that believers will not be raised from the dead until the Messiah's coming.


I Cor 15:50-55 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”


It is also apparent that we are indeed "mortal", as this passage clearly states. And we will not inherit the kingdom of God until we put on the imperishable and immortal at the resurrection.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Some simplicity needs to be added to this whole argument. God and angels are spirits.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit:
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who makes his angels spirits,
Throughout the Bible we see God and angels in bodily form that look human. Granted they may have the ability to appear in different form but as far as we know spirits are not clouds that float around but are individuals with a bodily form.
Human beings are spirits who have bodily form clothed with a flesh and blood body. When the flesh and blood body dies the human spirit steps right out of it with feet and arms and eye's etc etc.
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
Here John mistakes a human being who is a spirit with bodily form for an angel.
Revelation 22: 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
The point being there is a 15:14 .... There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The doctrine of the resurrection is a doctrine of simple and immediate life after death in a physical body, just not physical; as we know it now. It is not a doctrinal position having anything to do with prophetic times and seasons or dead flesh and blood bodies being raised to life. It is a doctrinal position revealed in opposition to all the lies the world has accepted on the matter. Lies like materialism, reincarnation, agnosticism and all the various isms out there. I would also add "soul sleep" to that list. The whole reason for flesh and blood bodies in the first place is so that one man and one woman with God can procreate other human beings and serve as parents with God to raise godly children into adulthood that are fit for heaven. That way God can populate heaven and share what he is so blessed with, with as many others as possible. These end time scenarios with their fallacious doctrines of events called the resurrections are nothing but spider webs of deceit designed to keep mankind from their ultimate purpose. To procreate Godly offspring which necessitates transforming this present world into something that is the most conducive to that purpose which God is hard at work at.

 

[redleghunter]

You said "immaterial" as I said "immortal". Are you equating the two or making a distinction?

I’m addressing the least denominator.

Our eternal Hope and Promise is the Resurrection where we receive from God our incorruptible risen bodies. Our immaterial inner man which most Christian theology addresses as our immaterial soul or spirit, at physical death of the body, is present with the Lord.

When Christ returns He brings with Him the saints asleep in the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:14).

This is reinforced with Revelation where we see believers under the Throne of God. (Revelation 6:9-11)

Then we have the teachings of Jesus Christ. In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus tells the story of a man named Lazarus and a rich man. Of course this is before His Resurrection, yet shows what Messiah teaches of what happens to us upon death of our mortal bodies. Lazarus and he rich man both in Hades one in bliss and the other in torment.

Jesus also confirms the above in Luke 23:43 where He promises the repentant man on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise that day.

And as mentioned previously, the NT understanding of the state of the believer after physical death is with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and Philippians 1:21-24).


Therefore, it is not a matter of a presupposition of an “immortal soul” but the fuller revelation of God in Holy Scriptures. Meaning taking into account God’s progressive revelation to us. Which culminates with the believer’s presence with the Lord although their mortal body dies. Do the math.