Soul Sleep Biblically Impossible

redleghunter

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With the breath of life we become a living soul(Genesis 2:7) clothed in the tabernacle of Flesh(2 Cor 5:1,4). When we die our mortality/earthly tabernacle is put off(2 Cor 5:4) swallowed up in death. So while we are at home in the flesh(alive bodily) we are absent from the Lord(2 Cor 5:5-6) but after death in the flesh we are spiritual beings/living souls( 1 Cor 15:44-46) awaiting resurrection and life with Christ(2 Cor 5:6,8,9).
While we are alive we are not present with God(since we are in the flesh) but when we die and become free of the earthly tabernacle the day of resurrection is the only thing that awaits us. This is the meaning Paul was speaking to.

When we die the Lord is given back the breath of life and the earthly tabernacle(our bodies of Flesh) die.
In 2 Corinthians 5 Paul made a distinction between receiving our heavenly house (resurrected body) and being absent from this mortal body yet present or at home with the Lord once we die. If our soul/spirit or inner man (2 Corinthians 4) ceases to exist then how are we present with the Lord?
 
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redleghunter

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Redleghunter: "What part of us is made in the Image and according to the likeness of God?"


Good question. Certainly the spirit that was given to man was in God's image. More than likely God's attributes are also a part of His image that we share, like self awareness, love, hate, joy and pleasure to name a few.
What happens to this spiritual image of man when our mortal bodies die?
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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In 2 Corinthians 5 Paul made a distinction between receiving our heavenly house (resurrected body) and being absent from this mortal body yet present or at home with the Lord once we die. If our soul/spirit or inner man (2 Corinthians 4) ceases to exist then how are we present with the Lord?
Paul doesn't say it is at the time of our death that we come to dwell with Christ but at the resurrection. Paul says that when we die we sleep in the grave awaiting the first or second resurrection. The soul/spirit which is contained within our earthly tabernacle(body of flesh) sleeps when the breath of life is given up as it is no longer contained in a living body of flesh(earthly tabernacle) only when it is awakened by the Lord do we regain our thoughts/memories and our abilities to feel.

There is no time when we cease to exist.
 
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redleghunter

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Redleghunter: "I have to ask...so what?
Does a Heavenly vision make it somewhat inaccurate or unreal?"


The fact that it was a vision does not make it inaccurate. It was certainly an accurate vision.
Was it real? Yes, it was a real vision.
A real vision with Moses speaking to Jesus. Sounds like Moses was more than dust in the grave.
 
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ewq1938

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No it doesn't. If you read Mathew's account of the Transfiguration you'll see that what they saw was a vision. Both Moses and Elijah were dead.


A vision doesn't mean it wasn't real. It means it was seen by someone's eyes. Moses and Elijah aren't dead, nor sleeping. They are awake and able to talk and do things like any one can.
 
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Dig4truth

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II Cor 5:1-8 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord
.
 
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ewq1938

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Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.

I'm not a conditionalist, but this is a prooftext they often use.

In my opinion, this is just King Solomon referring to the fact that before Christ came, there was a "soul sleep" in a sense, i.e. the righteous went to sleep in the Bosom of Abraham, until Christ freed them.

Thoughts?


That is written about what happens to the human body at death, from the human perspective. The dead bodies know nothing. That has nothing to do with the soul/spirit that is fully alert and awake in either heaven or Hades.
 
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redleghunter

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Paul doesn't say it is at the time of our death that we come to dwell with Christ but at the resurrection.
2 Corinthians 5: NASB
6Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. 7For we walk by faith, not by sight.8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. (NASB)

At home with the Lord is not qualified here as the Resurrection. Paul already earlier in the chapter made the distinction our desire is the Promise of the Resurrection. He is addressing our presence with the Lord upon death of our mortal bodies.

This one is quite interesting:

Philippians 1:NASB

21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. 23I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. 24But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (NASB)

What interesting is once again Paul makes the distinction between this temporal life vs being with Christ if he dies. Does he mean the Resurrection? It can’t be as Paul is speaking of leaving the Philippians by his death and being with Christ. If it was the Resurrection then the Philippians would be going too.

Two passages about the death of the mortal body and two references to being with the Lord/Christ. Neither qualified by the Resurrection.
Is it possible you have a presupposition we do not have an immaterial inner man or spirit even though the Bible teaches we do?
 
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ewq1938

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A vision means something visual seen, not an imaginary vision of things that aren't real.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

G3705
??´?aµa
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.

Mark makes this clear:


Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

And so does Luke.
 
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redleghunter

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"A real vision with Moses speaking to Jesus. Sounds like Moses was more than dust in the grave."

Something can be real or it can be a vision.


Vision:
an experience of seeing someone or something in a dream or trance, or as a supernatural apparition.
Regardless what’s accomplished by God showing something to the apostles which you would conclude is not viable?

Meaning it could not really be Moses because he was in the grave and we don’t have an immaterial inner man? I’m assuming this is your presupposition.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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2 Corinthians 5: NASB
6Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. 7For we walk by faith, not by sight.8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. (NASB)

At home with the Lord is not qualified here as the Resurrection. Paul already earlier in the chapter made the distinction our desire is the Promise of the Resurrection. He is addressing our presence with the Lord upon death of our mortal bodies.

This one is quite interesting:

Philippians 1:NASB

21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. 23I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. 24But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (NASB)

What interesting is once again Paul makes the distinction between this temporal life vs being with Christ if he dies. Does he mean the Resurrection? It can’t be as Paul is speaking of leaving the Philippians by his death and being with Christ. If it was the Resurrection then the Philippians would be going too.

Two passages about the death of the mortal body and two references to being with the Lord/Christ. Neither qualified by the Resurrection.
Is it possible you have a presupposition we do not have an immaterial inner man or spirit even though the Bible teaches we do?
1. Yes Paul says that he desires to out the tabernacle of Flesh and dwell with the Lord, he knows flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven and that when he dies he will be a spirit and will be resurrected in that form. Not in the tabernacle of Flesh. He says as much here and in other chapters/books.

2. Philippians 1 speaks of Paul's desire to be with Christ after death since he knows that only in the first or second Resurrection can one be present with the Lord.
1 thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yes Paul speaks of dying and being with Christ but when paired with the rest of his writings we see he means in the first or second Resurrection.
But looking at it the way you are it contradicts the rest of Paul's writings on the subject of Resurrection and when we come to dwell with Christ, it also contradicts peter, Christ, and the Apocalypse of John. So it is apparent when looking at the full picture that Paul is referring to either the first or second Resurrection for the time he would be with Christ.

I have said we all have a spirit/soul that lives on after death(of the earthly tabernacle of flesh) and sleeps in the grave/hell. I don't know where you would be getting the idea that I do not believe this.
 
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redleghunter

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redleghunter

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I have said we all have a spirit/soul that lives on after death(of the earthly tabernacle of flesh) and sleeps in the grave/hell. I don't know where you would be getting the idea that I do not believe this.
Well I don’t think Paul thought he was going to the grave or hell. He said PRESENT with the Lord.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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This is an assertion. Why?
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

He desires to depart and die so that he can live again with Christ, when we pair this with what he said here
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


We see that Paul knows/believes that a person does not dwell with the Lord until they are resurrected
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Well I don’t think Paul thought he was going to the grave or hell. He said PRESENT with the Lord.
The grave and hell are the same, Paul knew he would sleep in the grave when he died. He said the dead sleep many times. I have shown you a few of the places he said as much already. He would be present/live with the Lord at the time of the first or the second resurrection Paul has told us he knew as much several times.
 
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