Is the 1000 year kingdom literal?

jgr

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It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.

I'd change only one word.

"It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are afflicted in almost every area of their theological thinking."
 
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BABerean2

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Dan 12:1 and Luk 21:23 same event?

How are "being delivered" and "wrath" the same thing?



Dan 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.


Luk 21:23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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How are "being delivered" and "wrath" the same thing?

Dan 12:1 .........And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
Luk 21:23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

.
I looked up that word shown in Dan 12:1 in a lexicon.
The word #4422 actually appears to mean "escape"


4422 malat maw-lat' a primitive root; properly, to be smooth, i.e. (by implication) to escape (as if by slipperiness);.................

Daniel 12:1
"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.
And at that time your people escape<4422>, Every one who is found written in the book.


Luke uses the equivalent greek word in Luke 21:36


Luke 21:
23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36
watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape<1628> all these things that are about to come to pass,

and to stand before the Son of Man.'

1628. ekpheugo ek-fyoo'-go from 1537 and 5343; to flee out:--escape, flee.
 
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Riberra

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yes, I agree, Dan 9 = 70 AD with no "gap" (as JC stated in the Olivet Discourse, clearly referencing Dan 9)

yes, Vespasian (and his son Titus) was a prince who came, was even acknowledged as the prophesied Messiah by Josephus, evidently also from Dan 9
Do you and LittleLambofJesus really believe that Vespasian was the Prophesied Messiah mentioned in Daniel 9 ?Just in case that you don't know it :Jesus is the prophesied Messiah of Daniel 9.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Do you and LittleLambofJesus really believe that Vespasian was the Prophesied Messiah mentioned in Daniel 9 ?Just in case that you don't know it :Jesus is the prophesied Messiah of Daniel 9.
Are you a splitter or a Joiner? Some people join the references to the Prince. Some people split the first reference from the second reference. It's kind of confusing.

Daniel 9, seems to clearly apply to 70aD destruction of the temple and the ending of Temple Services. Which had something to do with the Prince the Messiah namely Jesus? But yet was physically brought about by another Prince, namely Vespasian and Titus.
 
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Riberra

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Are you a splitter or a Joiner? Some people join the references to the Prince. Some people split the first reference from the second reference. It's kind of confusing.

Daniel 9, seems to clearly apply to 70aD destruction of the temple and the ending of Temple Services. Which had something to do with the Prince the Messiah namely Jesus? But yet was physically brought about by another Prince, namely Vespasian and Titus.
Yes exactly that :
Jesus [God] used the Roman Army in 70 AD to punish the Jews ...as it was determined in Daniel 9.
 
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Erik Nelson

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So you claim that Jesus have RETURNED ON THE EARTH ...and that the Battle of Armageddon described in Revelation 19 have happened .

PROVE IT RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW....I WILL NOT GO READING THROUGH ALL YOUR LINKS TO FIND NOTHING BUT ONLY SPIRITUALISATION ... COMING FROM PASSAGES ABOUT JESUS SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN ,AND REIGING FROM HEAVEN.

PROVE US that Jesus have returned on the Earth AND THAT THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON HAVE HAPPENED as described in Revelation 19 ....OR SHUT UP !
Well, for one thing. No one has proved that the Battle of Armageddon in revelation 16 years, the battle described in revelation 19. That is one interpretation, which you appear to be assuming but it has not been PROVED that revelation 16's Armageddon is revelation nineteen's. Christian conquering figure.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Yes exactly that :
Jesus [God] used the Roman Army in 70 AD to punish the Jews ...
There is a story in the Talmud. About Nero coming to Judea and firing for arrows towards the 4 Cardinal directions of the compass each time he shot an arrow. It bent and deflected off its course and came back towards Jerusalem. From which Nero concluded that God was trying to use him as an instrument to punish Jerusalem and so he fled and converted to Judaism. I will try to find the reference.
 
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Riberra

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Well, for one thing. No one has proved that the Battle of Armageddon in revelation 16 years, the battle described in revelation 19. That is one interpretation, which you appear to be assuming but it has not been PROVED that revelation 16's Armageddon is revelation nineteen's. Christian conquering figure.
Edited to add this **
**The Christian conquering figure [Revelation 19]....is JESUS.[How it can be possible as a Christian that you are not able to figure that ??? / That demonstrate at which point you have been deceived by Full Preterist, you even believed that Vespasian was the Prophesied Messiah in Daniel 9:24-27 before i pointed out your mistake]

Note:nothing personal ..just trying to wake you up.The Future Battle Of Armageddon have nothing to do with what have happened in 70 AD.

which you appear to be assuming ...but it has not been PROVED that revelation 16's Armageddon is revelation nineteen's. Christian conquering figure.
Here The Biblical Proof that you asked for :
-Revelation 16:14-16 clearly refers to the Gathering for the Battle of Armageddon.
-
Revelation 19 provide the details about what will happen during the Battle Of Armageddon .


Both passages are obviously TIED to the YET TO COME [in a still unknown time in the future] Battle of Armageddon.

Its all in your Bible ...in the Book of Revelation.


Revelation 16:14-16
14 ......for they are spirits of demons, working signs; which go forth unto the kings of the whole world, to gather them together unto the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.

16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

Revelation 16:14-16 GOES EVEN FUTHER : THE COMING OF JESUS AS A THIEF [Revelation 16:15] IS TIED TO THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON WHEN ALL THE ARMIES OF THE WORLD WILL BE ALL ASSEMBLED AND IN PLACE [READY] for The Battle [Revelation 16:16]

EVEN WITH THAT INFORMATION IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW THE DAY AND THE HOUR OF THE COMING OF JESUS.

We have only a clue about the ''season'' ie when the armies will be Gathered for the Battle of Armageddon[Revelation 16:16] we will know that the Coming of Jesus is near... Blessed is he that watched Revelation 16:15]....and keepteh his garnments [The Faith in Jesus is our ARMOUR ],lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.

Ephesians 6:11-18 More details about what keeping our Garnments [Revelation 16:15] means

Ephesians 6:11-18
11 “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.”

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;



 
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BABerean2

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There is a story in the Talmud. About Nero coming to Judea and firing for arrows towards the 4 Cardinal directions of the compass each time he shot an arrow. It bent and deflected off its course and came back towards Jerusalem. From which Nero concluded that God was trying to use him as an instrument to punish Jerusalem and so he fled and converted to Judaism. I will try to find the reference.

Please do not post anything here from the Babylonian Talmud, which says Christ is the illegitimate son of Mary and a Roman soldier.

It is not a source of truth.


.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Edited to add this **
**The Christian conquering figure....is JESUS.[How it can be possible as a Christian that you are not able to figure that ??? / That demonstrate at which point you have been deceived by full preterist, you even believed that Vespasian was the Prophesied Messhiah in Daniel 9 before i pointed out your mistake]

Here The Biblical Proof that you asked for :
-Revelation 16:14-16 clearly refers to the Gathering for the Battle of Armageddon.
-
Revelation 19 provide the details about what will happen during the Battle Of Armageddon .


Both passages are obviously TIED to the YET TO COME [in a still unknown time in the future] Battle of Armageddon.

Its all in your Bible ...in the Book of Revelation.


Revelation 16:14-16
14 ......for they are spirits of demons, working signs; which go forth unto the kings of the whole world, to gather them together unto the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.

16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

Revelation 16:14-16 GOES EVEN FUTHER : THE COMING OF JESUS AS A THIEF [Revelation 16:15] IS TIED TO THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON WHEN ALL THE ARMIES OF THE WORLD WILL BE ALL ASSEMBLED AND IN PLACE [READY] for The Battle [Revelation 16:16]

EVEN WITH THAT INFORMATION IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW THE DAY AND THE HOUR OF THE COMING OF JESUS.

We have only a clue about the ''season'' ie when the armies will be Gathered for the Battle of Armageddon[Revelation 16:16] we will know that the Coming of Jesus is near... Blessed is he that watched Revelation 16:15]....and keepteh his garnments [The Faith in Jesus is our ARMOUR ],lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.

Ephesians 6:11-18 More details about what keeping our Garnments [Revelation 16:15] means

Ephesians 6:11-18
11 “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.”

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


I said JOSEPHUS used Daniel 9 to praise Vespasian as the Messiah prophesied in that chapter.

I'm just saying that many people from many perspectives taking many sides of this issue have all identified Daniel 9, with the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem and its physical temple during the first Jewish Roman war.

From a purely Christian perspective Jesus is THE Messiah and evidently Vespasian and his son Titus. Were somehow physical embodiments of Christ's will? To punish Jerusalem. For spilling the blood of the Messiah and many Saints.

Likewise, the Christian conquering figure of Revelation 19 is obviously somehow related to Jesus Christ. But given the abstract figurative and symbolic nature of the language in Revelation. Many have interpreted the figure abstractly suggesting that it symbolizes the gospel of Christ preached. The Gospel of Christ converted. The nations. Sleighing their sin so to speak.
 
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Riberra

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I'm just saying that many people from many perspectives taking many sides of this issue Have ALL identified Daniel 9, with the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem and its physical temple during the first Jewish Roman war.
.ACTUALLY the Pre-Tribbers ie [THE DARBITES] -Those who hold to the Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine and Modern Dispensation Theology invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830 ...doctrine which is believed by nearly 1 Billion Christians from the Protestant Denominations around the World ].. wrongly believe that the 70 TH Week of Daniel 9:24-27 about the Firm Covenant have not been fulfilled by Jesus.

THEY BELIEVE THAT THE FIRM COVENANT Mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27 KJV ....Will be something that will be fulfilled by an ANTICHRIST IN THE FORM OF A 7 YEARS PEACE TREATY WITH ISRAEL IN THE FUTURE who will be broken after 3 1/2 years ..Some of them even believe that Donald Trump and David Kushner [A Jew that they believe will become the antichrist ] who have married Trump's Daughter ] are about to fulfill their theory ....and of course they believe that they will be raptured to Heaven soon after ... if a peace treaty with Israel and the Palestinians is signed.

-If you remember last year in 2017 they believed that they were about to be raptured to Heaven the 23 Septembre 2017 because of a ''rare'' aligment of planets in Virgo.

-...And also in 2014 and 2015 during the Tetrads Blood Moons.
 
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Erik Nelson

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.ACTUALLY the Pre-Tribbers ie [THE DARBITES] -Those who hold to the Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine and Modern Dispensation Theology invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830 ...doctrine which is believed by nearly 1 Billion Christians from the Protestant Denominations around the World ].. wrongly believe that the 70 TH Week of Daniel 9:24-27 about the Firm Covenant have not been fulfilled by Jesus.

THEY BELIEVE THAT THE FIRM COVENANT Mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27 KJV ....Will be something that will be fulfilled by an ANTICHRIST IN THE FORM OF A 7 YEARS PEACE TREATY WITH ISRAEL IN THE FUTURE who will be broken after 3 1/2 years ..Some of them even believe that Donald Trump and David Kushner [A Jew that they believe will become the antichrist ] who have married Trump's Daughter ] are about to fulfill their theory ....and of course they believe that they will be raptured to Heaven soon after ... if a peace treaty with Israel and the Palestinians is signed.

-If you remember last year in 2017 they believed that they were about to be raptured to Heaven the 23 Septembre 2017 because of a ''rare'' aligment of planets in Virgo.

-...And also in 2014 and 2015 during the Tetrads Blood Moons.
Humans on earth have been "crying wolf" for centuries

However, people on earth being wrong does not logically deny that God in heaven is right

So please don't let them wind up deceiving you

We may not know the exact day or hour, but we can possibly know the "season", the general era in which Final Judgement will factually occur...

if the modern era = Rev 20:7-9 then Final Judgement will occur "Biblically soon"

all the people "crying wolf" may be wrong in specific detail, but I perceive that they may well be right in general idea, as if everybody senses "The End is [Biblically] near"
 
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ac28

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2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Does your church body observe the Lord's Supper, or do you think it has also passed away?

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


.
BABel

Still writing in those big fat red and blue letters, I see. Makes what you say seem important, at least in your own mind.

You've been around here long enough to know that Corinthians was written for another time, another Hope, another Calling. That's why Paul prays in Eph 1:18 that God will give you the eyes to see the hope of His new calling, just for the new Church in Eph. Not for any of those Gentiles in Acts grafted into Israel. Nothing in Paul's Acts epistles will tell you anything about YOU, what you have NOW been given or your future. Everything Paul taught during Acts was out of the OT. Everything after Acts was hid in God and no one EVER knew anything about it until God revealed it directly to Paul and Paul first revealed it to us, starting in Eph. Therefore, nothing in Paul's Acts epistles can apply to anything in his after-Acts epistles, as far as what has been given to us Gentiles today.
 
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ac28

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^_^
AKA the "spider web" doctrine...

http://www.christianforums.com/forums/dispensationalism.424/
Dispensationalism,

Everything you always wanted to know about the Dispy doctrine but were afraid to ask...and for good reason!!!!

http://graceonlinelibrary.org/dispensationalism/
.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively.
It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place. .......

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…
When you obey 2Tim 2:15, right division, in order to become approved unto God, where exactly do you make that single straight cut in God's Word of Truth? And, why?
 
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Copperhead

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.ACTUALLY the Pre-Tribbers ie [THE DARBITES] -Those who hold to the Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine and Modern Dispensation Theology invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830 ...doctrine which is believed by nearly 1 Billion Christians from the Protestant Denominations around the World ].. wrongly believe that the 70 TH Week of Daniel 9:24-27 about the Firm Covenant have not been fulfilled by Jesus.

THEY BELIEVE THAT THE FIRM COVENANT Mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27 KJV ....Will be something that will be fulfilled by an ANTICHRIST IN THE FORM OF A 7 YEARS PEACE TREATY WITH ISRAEL IN THE FUTURE who will be broken after 3 1/2 years ..Some of them even believe that Donald Trump and David Kushner [A Jew that they believe will become the antichrist ] who have married Trump's Daughter ] are about to fulfill their theory ....and of course they believe that they will be raptured to Heaven soon after ... if a peace treaty with Israel and the Palestinians is signed.

-If you remember last year in 2017 they believed that they were about to be raptured to Heaven the 23 Septembre 2017 because of a ''rare'' aligment of planets in Virgo.

-...And also in 2014 and 2015 during the Tetrads Blood Moons.

If a lie is told often enough, it eventually becomes considered the truth.

Darby was hardly the inventor of Pre-trib. There have been early church writer's sermon's found that state essentially the same thing. The concept has been around since the beginning of the Church. 1000 years of official Church control prior to the reformation that held down the pre-trib idea does not mean that it wasn't an idea that had been around. Darby just brought it back to the forefront of discussion. That does not make the idea correct or incorrect, it just means the diatribe about Darby inventing it is false. It is an argument used to shut down any reasonable dialogue. The same thing that goes on in secular culture. It is sad that some in the Church will use the tactics of the unbelievers against each other. And lends credibility to those outside the Church that those in the Church are nothing more than hypocrites.

I read a lot of what folks that held to pre-trib said about the "Revelation 12 Sign" of late summer 2017. There were a few characters who made it to be the rapture, but many of those that were talking about it were just calling it a sign that we are bumping up against the end. Just like the 4 documented blood moons over Jerusalem the year before. All symbols that things are converging.

Appearances are everything folks. Those outside the Church are watching us, looking for any excuse to condemn us. How we treat each other in theological discussions must be done in the highest standards of respect for each other. Taking the Lord's name in vain is not primarily about using the Name as a curse word, the intent of the Hebrew behind that commandment is how we represent or carry the Lord's Name. And sticking to the truth of the facts of history is paramount. it is ok to discuss the merits, or lack thereof, regarding a theological position, but centering on personalities doesn't get anyone closer to the truth.
 
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ac28

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Mt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

What do all these passages have in common?............the trumpet! The last trump......the 7th and last trumpet of Revelation. Post-Tribulation, all the way! Those who drag some obscure trumpet out of the OT are only lying to themselves. Don't believe it.

ALL of those who twist and pervert the scripture to show 2 comings of Christ are only lying to themselves. According to scripture, there is one 2nd coming and it occurs after the tribulation.

However, who cares? The rapture doesn't apply to anyone living during the last 1955 years. The rapture will be for Israel and those Gentiles in Acts who were part of Israel, because they were grafted into Israel. OUR "Rapture" today is the "Appearing". When Christ first "Appears" in Heaven (Heavenly places; The Heaven of Heavens; Far above all Heavens) to His creation there, we will immediately be translated to appear with Him and join Him there - Col 3:1-4. This is totally different than the rapture, which occurs at the 2nd Coming, about 800 years from now, after Israel's earthly Kingdom, where David sits on the earthly throne and Christ rules from Heaven.

The Appearing will probably happen in about 2063, when Israel once again becomes ammi, God's people, when this 2000 year Gentile period is over. It will be the 1st resurrection, which, along with everything in Paul's post-Acts books, had been a mystery, a secret, hid in God from every age and generation, until God revealed it to Paul and then Paul revealed it to us after the all-Israel Acts ended. We are all Gentiles today. Even the Jews, who must accept Christ as their Saviour to be saved, just like us. Nothing that ever pertained to Israel's future pertains to our future. Our future is found only in Paul's 7 post-Acts books
 
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Copperhead

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Could be. There is also a train of thought that there are 3 trumpets associated with the feasts of Leviticus 23. The first trump of Shavuot (Pentecost). The Last Trump of Yom Teruah (Trumpets, Rosh ha Shanah) and the Great Trump of Yom Kippur (day of atonement).

The Last Trump that Paul wrote about could refer to a festival and not the ones in Revelation. Revelation was written much later, and it was a Revelation of Yeshua given to Him by the Father and then given to John who wrote it down. There is nothing there to conclusively match the trumpets to what Paul wrote
to the Corinthians.

But the nation of Israel is still in play. Not from a salvation standpoint. Hosea and Yeshua both made it clear that Israel/Jacob must, as a corporate entity, acknowledge its rejection of Messiah in AD32 and call for His return... before he will return. Yeshua will not return until that happens.
 
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jgr

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But the nation of Israel is still in play. Not from a salvation standpoint.

Israel is genetically in all of us.

There is only one Israel that God recognizes, and it is the Israel exclusively from a salvation standpoint.

The Israel who is in Christ.

The Israel of faith and obedience.

The Israel of God. (Galatians 6:16)
 
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BABerean2

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Therefore, nothing in Paul's Acts epistles can apply to anything in his after-Acts epistles, as far as what has been given to us Gentiles today.

Your doctrine fails the DNA test.

The Church today continues to be made up of all races of people, instead of just being made up of "Gentile" believers.

I have had Christians in my home for Bible study, who came from a Jewish heritage.

The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church".

I does not matter what color the letters are, or the size of the letters in this post, it still reveals the error of your doctrine...


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