Two Messiah?

Chinchilla

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8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:

12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:

13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:

14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.

15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.

19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.



Why is this passage talking about two goats and casting lots ?

When I read about passover for example , I understand that Lamb is slain as future Messiah and people were saved by the blood which covered thier house .

But I don't understand why are there two goats in this passage , what is this talking about ?

High priest cleansing himself with Bullock offering .
Then the goat slain for transgressions of people .
Why the last goat is let free which is bearing the sins in wilderness if the first one died for the sins and what has it to do with future Messiah ?
 
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Steve Petersen

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The scapegoat was pushed over a cliff and dashed to pieces on the rocks, a picture of the fate of the Antichrist.

In the Bible the Hebrew word translated 'scapegoat' is Azazel. Azazel was a goat demon in Semitic literature.

Why would God use a goat demon as a picture of Christ?
 
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Chinchilla

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The scapegoat was pushed over a cliff and dashed to pieces on the rocks, a picture of the fate of the Antichrist.

In the Bible the Hebrew word translated 'scapegoat' is Azazel. Azazel was a goat demon in Semitic literature.

Why would God use a goat demon as a picture of Christ?

Why would God use serpent on pole as picture of Christ ?
 
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Steve Petersen

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Why would God use serpent on pole as picture of Christ ?

So Jesus is not only a goat demon but a serpent!?

Obviously neither is true. Jesus did make a connection between his crucifixion and the bronze serpent, but he never said anything about the scapegoat.
 
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Steve Petersen

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It is not correct to say that עזאזל can only mean "goat demon". This is just one meaning. the Hebrew also means, as the lexicon of Brown, Driver and Briggs says, "עזאזל...in ritual of Day of Atonement, = entire removal of sin and guilt from sacred places into desert on back of goat, symbol of entire forgiveness." The LXX uses "ἔρημος", which means "wilderness, desert", signifying the banishing of the "scapegoat" into the wilderness for the "removal" of sins. This is a type of Jesus' Death on the cross.
Except Jesus didn't die in the wilderness.
 
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The “2 Messiahs” theory is based on refusal to accept that the Messiah would come to us twice in 2 different roles: 1 time as the suffering servant who was killed and raised from the dead, and the 2nd time as the conquering Davidic king who rules the world.

It exists to skirt around Jesus being the Messiah, because the scriptures teach that the Messiah visits us twice
 
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Chinchilla

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That process is done during Yom Kippur which is performed in Heavenly Court and with Yeshua our High Priest. Satan is the scapegoat that is cast out of heaven.

Sins were placed on Christ tho not on Satan .

2 Corinthians 5:11
 
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Heber Book List

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Two Messiah's were thought to be Son of David and the Son of Joseph; that is the only ones I know about, and they were nothing to do with goats.

See Dan Cohn Sherbock, The Jewish Messiah. For more information.
 
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HTacianas

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Except Jesus didn't die in the wilderness.

But Barabbas did.

Contrast the story of the release of Barabbas and the crucifixion of Christ with the scapegoat and the sacrifice. Jesus Barabbas (Bar Abbas, or Bar Abba - Son of the Father) was released "into the wilderness" while Jesus Son of the Father was sacrificed for our sins.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Jesus understood this when He was only twelve years old (and sooner).
Without any of the so-called experts or any of the so-called authorities you apparently believe or trust in, subject later to clarifying to be more accurate if willing.
Likewise all of His disciples AND their children understood this, without any of the educated ones you seem to put your faith in, subject later to clarifying as noted.

Likewise little ones in faith understand, or may understand , without the help of so-called educated ones who it is written Jesus Says His Father HIDES salvation from !? Right?
If you insist on a 'bible only' method of interpretation, you will never understand this passage.
 
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Chinchilla

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Jesus understood this when He was only twelve years old (and sooner).
Without any of the so-called experts or any of the so-called authorities you apparently believe or trust in, subject later to clarifying to be more accurate if willing.
Likewise all of His disciples AND their children understood this, without any of the educated ones you seem to put your faith in, subject later to clarifying as noted.

Likewise little ones in faith understand, or may understand , without the help of so-called educated ones who it is written Jesus Says His Father HIDES salvation from !? Right?

12 Apostles were multiple times asking Jesus to explain to them the parables because they didn't understand .
 
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visionary

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Satan has NEVER had any part in the Atonement that is by God for His lost world. Not in the Old Testament, nor in the New, or ever! The "Scapegoat" is a type of Jesus Christ' death, where the sins of all sinners was placed on Him, and He "removed" them.
You are demanding Yeshua play all roles in the Atonement, but that is not what the atonement is about. After cleaning the sanctuary of sin, the sins are laid upon Azazel's head.

Leviticus 16:8
Aaron will cast lots over the two goats: one lot labeled “the Lord’s” and the other lot labeled “Azazel’s.” 10 But the goat selected by Azazel’s lot will be left standing alive before the Lord in order to make reconciliation upon it by sending it away into the wilderness to Azazel.

A little history on the name Azazel, which has never been associated with Yeshua in any form or at any time.. Azazel (Hebrew: עֲזָאזֵל‎, translit. ʿAzazel; Arabic: عزازيل‎, translit. ʿAzāzīl) appears in the Bible in association with the scapegoat and in some traditions of all three religions Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, it is the name for a fallen angel but never Yeshua. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, the name Azazel occurs in the line 6 of 4Q203, The Book of Giants. The Book of Enoch, brings Azazel into connection with the Biblical story of the fall of the angels. The translators of the Greek Septuagint understood the Hebrew term as meaning the sent away. According to the Peshitta, Azazel is rendered Za-za-e'il (the strong one against God), as in Qumran fragment 4Q180.

The whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.

— Book of Enoch 10:8
 
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Eloy Craft

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You are demanding Yeshua play all roles in the Atonement, but that is not what the atonement is about. After cleaning the sanctuary of sin, the sins are laid upon Azazel's head.

Leviticus 16:8
Aaron will cast lots over the two goats: one lot labeled “the Lord’s” and the other lot labeled “Azazel’s.” 10 But the goat selected by Azazel’s lot will be left standing alive before the Lord in order to make reconciliation upon it by sending it away into the wilderness to Azazel.

A little history on the name Azazel, which has never been associated with Yeshua in any form or at any time.. Azazel (Hebrew: עֲזָאזֵל‎, translit. ʿAzazel; Arabic: عزازيل‎, translit. ʿAzāzīl) appears in the Bible in association with the scapegoat and in some traditions of all three religions Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, it is the name for a fallen angel but never Yeshua. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, the name Azazel occurs in the line 6 of 4Q203, The Book of Giants. The Book of Enoch, brings Azazel into connection with the Biblical story of the fall of the angels. The translators of the Greek Septuagint understood the Hebrew term as meaning the sent away. According to the Peshitta, Azazel is rendered Za-za-e'il (the strong one against God), as in Qumran fragment 4Q180.

The whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.

— Book of Enoch 10:8
It makes sense. Jesus' supreme act of obedience saved mankind and at the same time Judged Satan. They look the same but are opposites.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So, in line with God's Word, who do you think you should ask when you don't understand something ?

12 Apostles were multiple times asking Jesus to explain to them the parables because they didn't understand .
 
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visionary

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It makes sense. Jesus' supreme act of obedience saved mankind and at the same time Judged Satan. They look the same but are opposites.
The scapegoat scenario has been interpreted to be a prefigure of the final judgment by which sin is removed forever from the universe. Through the sacrifice of Yeshua, and the atoning process of Yeshua as our High Priest, the sins of the believers are forgiven them, and omn Yom Kippur they are wipe with His blood in the Book of Life but the fact that sins were committed still exist on record in the "Books" of heaven just blotted out. (see Revelation 20:12). After the final judgment, the responsibility for all those forgiven sins are accredited to the originator of sin, Satan, after which Satan is destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Sin will no longer exist anywhere.
 
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