Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

[Myychael]

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.

The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack. (Gary DeMar; “That’s Not in the Bible”)

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

I see when one is a name dropper one thinks that Lahaye,Armstrong,Hagge that they because of TV are more Holy and have more knowledge than the non prominant Christain These folks names are thrown around like Boxing champions or NBA stars the fact is if you believe in the Rapture or post Rapture or mid trib rapture or you believe you haveto face the great tribulation and either reject or accept the mark of the beast.you had better be ready and strong in the Lord.Some believe the mark of the beast is only middle east area.I myself am pre-trib the best place i no for this info is pretrib research center google this for more info.you see my faith doesnt exist for a rapture to escape as others call it my faith is in Jesus Christ and the Bible if the rapture doesnt happen what will i do the same i have always done
Keep praising the LORD and move forward Tim want save ya bro the pre trib rapture gang want save ya
A few last words if there is no Rapture then its gonna get real tough.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Well, for starters Acts 24:15 confirms that both are raised at the same time.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

REV 20 refutes your statement that both are raised at the same time

Acts : 15 does not say they are raised at the same time, it says there will be a resurrection of both. Rev 20 says that the wicked are resurrected after the 1000 years. The nations that satan deceives after the 1000 years are the resurrected wicked that lived not till the 1000 years were finished.

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[DavidPT]

The rapture occurs at the trump of God.......pretribulation.........before the seals are opened which is why there is no mention of the church after the seal the 1st seal is opened.

So how is it that Pretribbers are finding the church in Revelation 19 then? Using the same logic you are using above, I see no mention of the church in that chapter.

 

[Dave L]

I see when one is a name dropper one thinks that Lahaye,Armstrong,Hagge that they because of TV are more Holy and have more knowledge than the non prominant Christain These folks names are thrown around like Boxing champions or NBA stars the fact is if you believe in the Rapture or post Rapture or mid trib rapture or you believe you haveto face the great tribulation and either reject or accept the mark of the beast.you had better be ready and strong in the Lord.Some believe the mark of the beast is only middle east area.I myself am pre-trib the best place i no for this info is pretrib research center google this for more info.you see my faith doesnt exist for a rapture to escape as others call it my faith is in Jesus Christ and the Bible if the rapture doesnt happen what will i do the same i have always done
Keep praising the LORD and move forward Tim want save ya bro the pre trib rapture gang want save ya
A few last words if there is no Rapture then its gonna get real tough.

All of this rapture hoopla began in the 1800s from highly questionable sources.

 

[Dave L]

So how is it that Pretribbers are finding the church in Revelation 19 then? Using the same logic you are using above, I see no mention of the church in that chapter.

“And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.” (Revelation 19:6–9)

 

[iamlamad]

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;
...

It's very simple: all these you have mentioned simply do not understand Paul in 1 thes. 5 when he tells us the timing, and in Revelation where the great crowd is seen before the 70th week begins. The bible is VERY clear the rapture is pretrib when you understand it.

 

[iamlamad]

All of this rapture hoopla began in the 1800s from highly questionable sources.

Myth! Paul started it in 1 Thes. 4.

 

[Dave L]

It's very simple: all these you have mentioned simply do not understand Paul in 1 thes. 5 when he tells us the timing, and in Revelation where the great crowd is seen before the 70th week begins. The bible is VERY clear the rapture is pretrib when you understand it.

There is no gap in the 70 weeks and Jesus in the middle of the 70th week is not Antichrist. It is blasphemy to say he is.

 

[Dave L]

Myth! Paul started it in 1 Thes. 4.

Paul places the rapture on the last day after the resurrection of the dead.

 

[DavidPT]

All of this rapture hoopla began in the 1800s from highly questionable sources.

You don't believe in a rapture at all then, right?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


If this is not a rapture to you, what is it to you? Should this be spiritualized or something?

The only thing I know, call the above whatever you might, but that there are only 3 logical places the above can be meaning. 1---before the GT. 2---during the GT. 3---after the GT. My position is #3.

BTW, position #3 would fit with the last day.

 

[Dave L]

You don't believe in a rapture at all then, right?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


If this is not a rapture to you, what is it to you? Should this be spiritualized or something?

The only thing I know, call the above whatever you might, but that there are only 3 logical places the above can be meaning. 1---before the GT. 2---during the GT. 3---after the GT. My position is #3.

Paul speaks of the "rapture" taking place after the resurrection of the dead which happens on the last day.

 

[DavidPT]

Paul speaks of the "rapture" taking place after the resurrection of the dead which happens on the last day.

If the rapture is after the GT, couldn't that make the rapture occuring on the last day?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Even though this is meaning on the last day, still there is no way the resurrection of the wicked precede the events in verse 17. The resurrection of the wicked is not even in this context. When does Christ destroy the wicked? Before He physically returns? Or once He has physically returned? If the latter, the resurrection of the wicked can't precede the destruction of the wicked still alive when Jesus returns. That makes no sense that there are still wicked people alive when Christ returns, but that the resurrection of the wicked already occurred before Christ slays them.

 

[DavidPT]

Paul speaks of the "rapture" taking place after the resurrection of the dead which happens on the last day.

The resurrection of what dead? In context, in the event context means anything to you, he is ONLY meaning the resurrection of the saved in 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[Dave L]

If the rapture is after the GT, couldn't that make the rapture occuring on the last day?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Even though this is meaning on the last day, still there is no way the resurrection of the wicked precede the events in verse 17. The resurrection of the wicked is not even in this context. When does Christ destroy the wicked? Before He physically returns? Or once He has physically returned? If the latter, the resurrection of the wicked can't precede the destruction of the wicked still alive when Jesus returns. That makes no sense that there are still wicked people alive when Christ returns, but that the resurrection of the wicked already occurred before Christ slays them.

“Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28–29)

 

[Dave L]

The resurrection of what dead? In context, in the event context means anything to you, he is ONLY meaning the resurrection of the saved in 1 Thessalonians 4.

“Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28–29)

 

[Douggg]

There is no gap in the 70 weeks.

There are two gaps.

There is a gap between the 69th week and the destruction of the temple and city. The 69th week ended when Jesus was crucified. Jesus arrived in Jerusalem hailed as the messiah by his followers; 4 days later he was crucified.

Gap.

40 years later in 70 AD, the people of the prince who shall come destroyed the temple and city.

Gap.

In the end times, in the latter year (Ezekiel 38:8) between Ezekiel 39:1-16 prophecy and 39:17-29 prophecy is the 7 years of the 70th week.

The prince who shall come from north and west of Israel (Daniel 8:9) into the middle east with the pretenses to secure the peace in the region following God's destruction of Gog/Magog, will be perceived by the Jews to be the messiah. And he will be anointed the King of Israel, by the false prophet. Making him the Antichrist.

The Antichrist will make the big speech from the temple mount, as Moses required in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, that God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people as theirs forever, for the 7 year period in the text - and the last 7 years of Daniel 9:27.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Dave, the only thing on the prophecy timeline right now before things take off is the formation of the ten leader form of the EU government. From there, things are going to proceed like a flash flood.

 

[DavidPT]

“Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28–29)

Though I wouldn't agree, but if your position is that both resurrections happen on the same day, but just not at the same time, at least that would have some logic to it. But if your position is that both resurrections occur at the exact same moment, that contradicts numerous things. Such as---the dead in Christ shall rise first. And such as---the wicked still alive when Christ returns are not physically dead yet until slain by Christ once He returns.

 

[Dave L]

There is a gap between the 69th week and the 70th week. The 69th week end when Jesus was crucified.

Gap.

40 years later in 70 AD, the people of the prince who shall come destroyed the temple and city.

In the end times, in the latter year (Ezekiel 38:8) between Ezekiel 39:1-16 prophecy and 39:17-29 prophecy is the 7 years of the 70th week.

The prince who shall come from north and west of Israel (Daniel 8:9) into the middle east with the pretenses to secure the peace in the region following God's destruction of Gog/Magog, will be perceived by the Jews to be the messiah. And he will be anointed the King of Israel, by the false prophet. Making him the Antichrist.

The Antichrist will make the big speech from the temple mount, as Moses required in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, that God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people as theirs forever, for the 7 year period in the text - and the last 7 years of Daniel 9:27.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Dave, the only thing on the prophecy timeline right now is the formation of the ten leader form of the EU government. From there, things are going to proceed like a flash flood.

Quote scripture that says anything about a gap. It would no longer be 70 weeks if there were a gap. But 70 weeks+ however long the gap might be.

 

[Dave L]

Though I wouldn't agree, but if your position is that both resurrections happen on the same day, but just not at the same time, at least that would have some logic to it. But if your position is that both resurrections occur at the exact same moment, that contradicts numerous things. Such as---the dead in Christ shall rise first. And such as---the wicked still alive when Christ returns are not physically dead yet until slain by Christ once He returns.

Both resurrections happen on the last day.

 

[DavidPT]

Both resurrections happen on the last day.

At the same time or at different times?