Which commandments to obey?

Kaon

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I hope that @Kaon will answer it as it was directed to him as part of what I was discussing with him.

I answered this several time in several different ways.

The Most High God guaranteed that He would put the Law and His statutes on our hearts so that no one will have to go to their neighbour and ask, "Do you know God?"

We choose to argue against what we know is right for the sake of spiritual and carnal comfort. A human dropped on a deserted island without any base text on the Most High God (a canon, for example) still has the same ability to come to the Most High God through the literal communion with the Literal Living Word of God.

The Word of God Himself told us He would not leave us comfortless, but that we would have an advocate that would help us to rightly divide the Truth. This is why I can say everything I have said - and mean it.


Many people will run too and fro, and knowledge will increase. But, The Most High God chooses who He chooses, and He convicts the Spirit - not a canonical text. Are we underestimating the power of the Most High God, and how He can use the alleged "foolish" to humble the wise?
 
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Loren T.

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Same question, sort of - when was "the penalty for those sins" a death sentence ?
Sins that were punishable by death under the old covenant:
  • Murder (Exodus 21:12-14; Leviticus 24:17,21)
  • Attacking or cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15,17)
  • Disobedience to parents (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
  • Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
  • Failure to confine a dangerous animal, resulting in death (Exodus 21:28-29)
  • Witchcraft and sorcery (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27, Deuteronomy 13:5, 1 Samuel 28:9)
  • Human sacrifice (Leviticus 20:2-5)
  • Sex with an animal (Exodus 22:19, Leviticus 20:16)
  • Doing work on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14, 35:2, Numbers 15:32-36)
  • Incest (Leviticus 18:6-18, 20:11-12,14,17,19-21)
  • Adultery (Leviticus 20:10; Deuteronomy 22:22)
  • Homosexual acts (Leviticus 20:13)
  • Prostitution by a priest's daughter (Leviticus 21:9)
  • Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:14,16, 23)
  • False prophecy (Deuteronomy 18:20)
  • Perjury in capital cases (Deuteronomy 19:16-19)
  • Refusing to obey a decision of a judge or priest (Deuteronomy 17:12)
  • False claim of a woman's virginity at time of marriage (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)
  • Sex between a woman pledged to be married and a man other than her betrothed (Deuteronomy 22:23-
 
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justbyfaith

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I answered this several time in several different ways.

The Most High God guaranteed that He would put the Law and His statutes on our hearts so that no one will have to go to their neighbour and ask, "Do you know God?"

We choose to argue against what we know is right for the sake of spiritual and carnal comfort. A human dropped on a deserted island without any base text on the Most High God (a canon, for example) still has the same ability to come to the Most High God through the literal communion with the Literal Living Word of God.

The Word of God Himself told us He would not leave us comfortless, but that we would have an advocate that would help us to rightly divide the Truth. This is why I can say everything I have said - and mean it.


Many people will run too and fro, and knowledge will increase. But, The Most High God chooses who He chooses, and He convicts the Spirit - not a canonical text. Are we underestimating the power of the Most High God, and how He can use the alleged "foolish" to humble the wise?
We may have to agree to disagree.

I believe that the word of God is inspired and inerrant (especially the kjv). By the word of God I mean the holy scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation in my Protestant Bible.

Add to it, and God will add to you a number of plagues. Take away from it, and He will take away your part out of the holy city, and the Book of Life, etc. (see Revelation 22:18-19 (kjv)).

Hold the entire thing as inspired, you avoid doing either of the above no-no's.
 
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Kaon

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We may have to agree to disagree.

I believe that the word of God is inspired. By the word of God I mean the holy scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation in my Protestant Bible.

Add to it, and God will add to you a number of plagues. Take away from it, and He will take away your part out of the holy city, and the Book of Life, etc. (see Revelation 22:18-19).

Hold the entire thing as inspired, you avoid doing either of the above no-no's.

And yet, the bible is a canon in which people both added and removed from it - a decision about the Spirit made by other men for other men.

Which, is why I will trust my Father alone. Of course I use the canon for education, but my Father is the one who guides my step - including my apprehension and scrutiny of the canon itself. I think more people should question

1) What is the Word of God (it is a Person, not an object)
2) Who gave men the authority to determine what is spiritually profitable for other men?


These crucial questions need to be though about in the context of the promises of the Most High God - namely Jeremiah 31:33, and how Christ does not contradict the words of His Father.
 
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justbyfaith

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How do you know that Jeremiah 31:33 is inspired? If the whole canon of scripture is not inspired, anything within it might not be God's word to us, and therefore if we reject it we are not accountable...

Therefore your premise is self-defeating. If the Bible is not fully inspired, I can reject the law and it is no skin off my back.

But if the whole of it is inspired, then those passages that tell us that the law has been done away with must needs be taken into account.
 
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justbyfaith

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2) Who gave men the authority to determine what is spiritually profitable for other men?
God is both sovereign and loving and Omnipotent. Therefore in His perfect power and control over everything, I do not doubt that He would have, in His love, provided the perfect message in the Holy Bible as it has been given to us, concerning salvation...and would not have allowed it to have been perverted in any way. The Holy Bible is therefore the perfect and unadulterated message of salvation to the world, inspired and without error...Christ's love letter to His bride as we wait for His triumphant return to earth, by which we can get to know Him better, who is the living Word of God.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Traveling one place to another until I could get back here, I got to see as if in a vision c.chapel burning in judgment, with not even one timber or stone remaining.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen?
 
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justbyfaith

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Traveling one place to another until I could get back here, I got to see as if in a vision c.chapel burning in judgment, with not even one timber or stone remaining.
Simply not going to happen, as the Calvary Chapel Movement is responsible for the salvation of many.
 
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justbyfaith

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And actually, if I could, I would rate post #366 as Winner: it defeats the opposing premise.

You would rate it Funny in order to lessen its blow against what you believe in.

#369 also.

You can change your rating to make me seem like I don't know what I'm talking about. Go ahead and change it back to Funny if you'd like, after you changed it from Funny to Prayers...and whatever else you want to try to do.

Reminds me of a slithering snake...

Now you have me praying in my prayer language.
 
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Kaon

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God is both sovereign and loving and Omnipotent. Therefore in His perfect power and control over everything, I do not doubt that He would have, in His love, provided the perfect message in the Holy Bible as it has been given to us, concerning salvation...and would not have allowed it to have been perverted in any way. The Holy Bible is therefore the perfect and unadulterated message of salvation to the world, inspired and without error...Christ's love letter to His bride as we wait for His triumphant return to earth, by which we can get to know Him better, who is the living Word of God.

The holy bible is a canon; He gave you a Perfect Spiritual Comforter to commune with Him.

If you were born off planet, and heard nothing of the bible or God, you would have the same opportunity to know Him because He has guaranteed all of His elect will receive His comforter, and that His People will have His statutes and Laws written on their hearts so that no one has to ask, "Do you know God?"


You make it seem like the Most High God is impotent to communicate with His people without the canon, or other humans.



The bible is a canon; the Word of God is a Living, Literal Entity known as the Son of Man (not the bible.) The bible is good for instruction, reproof and council. But, you already have a Perfect Spirit of Comfort and Conviction.
 
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Open Heart

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There is the question of which commandments we are to obey in 1 John 5:3 and in 2 John 1:6, as the result of loving the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Do we obey all of the commandments in the Old Testament? Matthew 5:17-20, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Jeremiah 31:33, Romans 8:4-7 would seem to tell us so.

We will be called great in the kingdom if we obey and teach the least of these God's commandments. In context (in Matthew 5:17-20) Jesus is talking about the Old Testament law.

But concerning this, it seems that Jesus Himself taught that the Old Testament commandments concerning food laws and the sabbath are now invalid. For He Himself broke the sabbath according to John's testimony (John 5:18); and He also proclaimed on more than one occasion that all foods are now clean (Mark 7:14-19, Luke 11:41, Romans 14:14).

Yet the law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25); it shows men their sin (Romans 3:20) and brings them to the place of being converted (Psalms 19:7). I don't think that this is talking about the law as it is now that it has been changed for the believer (Hebrews 7:12).

The law has only been changed in that it is no longer given to us as a set of do's and don'ts, but as a list of virtues to be exemplified and vices to be avoided (Galatians 5:16-24). We are told not to walk according to the flesh and that we will reap what we sow, even as believers (Galatians 6:7-8).

And also, the Old Testament sacrifices are no longer needed, because Christ dying on the Cross is the fulfillment of them.

So then, concerning food laws and sabbath days, it seems that if I am going to be great in the kingdom, I should obey and teach them (Matthew 5:17-20); however it also seems that Jesus Himself taught that the sabbath is not all-important, and that neither are the food laws.

It seems to be kind of like the teaching Jesus gave about whether to be an eunuch or not. "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Those who break the least of these commandments and teach men so will not be excluded from the kingdom (in Matthew 5:17-20); but they will be called least in the kingdom.

God is wanting to bring back His Jewish people into the fold of those accepted by Him through faith in the Messiah. In 1 Corinthians 8 and Romans 14, we are told to be sensitive to the consciences of our weaker brothers and sisters (those who feel that the food laws define what is clean and unclean; or those who hold the sabbath day above other days). Perhaps even to the extent of observing these laws ourselves, since at any moment we might come into contact with a weaker brother or sister, who may be stumbled by our liberty, their conscience being emboldened to eat what they do not in reality have liberty to eat. We ought to bear the infirmities of the weak and not to please ourselves, even if we ourselves are stronger and feel that we have the liberty to eat what is unclean or to work on Saturday. Jesus did say that it is lawful to do well, what is good and right, on the sabbath days. He redefined the sabbath for us; He is the Lord of the sabbath; I am not certain that He abolished it completely. It is an excellent principle to follow that we should set aside time to rest and spend time with the Lord between Him and us alone. And food laws are now reduced to being an indicating factor of whether or not we have the love of God in our hearts towards a weaker brother, since in 1 Timothy 4:1-6 it becomes clear that every creature of God is good and nothing to be refused if it be received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. So as Gentile believers we have the right to eat what our culture tells us is good; while if we know that we even might be in the presence of a weaker (Jewish) brother or sister we ought to be sensitive to their consciences and refrain from eating what we might otherwise have liberty to eat.

And Jesus healed on the sabbath, even though it stumbled the scribes and Pharisees who were looking onward. However He was redefining the sabbath as the One who made it; because the scribes and Pharisees had taken it too far and had made an idol out of keeping strict laws concerning it. Paul's exhortation in Romans 14 concerning the sabbath is let every man be fully convinced in his own mind as to whether he holds one day above another or whether he holds every day alike. And the weaker brother is not to judge the stronger brother; and the stronger brother is not to hold the weaker brother in contempt.
Which commandments we obey depends on whether we are a Jewish believer or a Gentile believer. Jews are bound to the 613 of the Torah by covenant -- our Jewish identity is uniquely caught up in Torah, because when we stop keeping the Torah, we forget we are Jews. We have the example of Jesus keeping the Torah, the Apostles and all the Jewish believers in Jerusalem being "zealous for Torah" (Acts 21:20) and Paul testifying that he has kept every Jewish law (Acts 25:8). Jesus instructs his Jewish followers to respect and obey the authority of the Sanhedrin in ALL they teach in Matthew 23:1-3.

Yet the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 very specifically states that Gentile believers do NOT have to become circumcised and obey Mosaic law.

Neither does Acts 15 prohibit those unique Gentiles who WANT to obey Mosaic law from doing so. If you WANT to keep the Sabbath or observe the kosher laws, please do so with our blessing. Acts 15 just says that it can't be forced on Gentile believers.

The laws for Gentiles are the basic morality taught in general Gentile society plus those things Judaism has to offer them: no idolatry, no fornication, abstinence from blood. If there is confusion over what exactly that means, Paul gives lists in several different letters. (No where is the Sabbath mentioned, BTW, which is kept to recall Israel's deliverance from slavery in Egypt.)

This does NOT mean that keeping either the Mosaic laws or the basic laws earn salvation. Rather, they are a path for sanctification.
 
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Open Heart

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Sins that were punishable by death under the old covenant....
  • Refusing to obey a decision of a judge or priest (Deuteronomy 17:12)
This is why Jesus instructs his followers to do and observe all that the Pharisees teach in Matthew 23:1-3
 
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BobRyan

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The laws for Gentiles are the basic morality taught in general Gentile society plus those things Judaism has to offer them: no idolatry, no fornication, abstinence from blood.

The RCC says that moral law of God includes the moral law of God and that the moral law of God includes the TEN Commandments.

The Baptist confession of faith says that includes the moral law of God and that the moral law of God includes the TEN Commandments

The Westminster confession of faith says that includes the moral law of God and that the moral law of God includes the TEN Commandments

The Bible says it includes the unit of LAW where "the FIRST commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment "Honor your Father and Mother" -- Eph 6:2... which is of course the TEN Commandments.

The Bible says the Sabbath is for "all mankind" Isaiah 66:23 and specifically singles out "gentiles" Isaiah 56:5-8

The Sabbath commandment is quoted from in the NT... but the command "do not take God's name in vain" is not quoted from at all in the NT... which of course means nothing against the command to not take God's name in vain.. .it is just a "game" some folks like to play.
 
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Open Heart

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The RCC says that moral law of God includes the moral law of God and that the moral law of God includes the TEN Commandments.

The Baptist confession of faith says that includes the moral law of God and that the moral law of God includes the TEN Commandments

The Westminster confession of faith says that includes the moral law of God and that the moral law of God includes the TEN Commandments

The Bible says it includes the unit of LAW where "the FIRST commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment "Honor your Father and Mother" -- Eph 6:2... which is of course the TEN Commandments.

The Bible says the Sabbath is for "all mankind" Isaiah 66:23 and specifically singles out "gentiles" Isaiah 56:5-8

The Sabbath commandment is quoted from in the NT... but the command "do not take God's name in vain" is not quoted from at all in the NT... which of course means nothing against the command to not take God's name in vain.. .it is just a "game" some folks like to play.
You are speaking to ME and what *I* am saying. I await your reply.
 
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justbyfaith

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The holy bible is a canon; He gave you a Perfect Spiritual Comforter to commune with Him.

If you were born off planet, and heard nothing of the bible or God, you would have the same opportunity to know Him because He has guaranteed all of His elect will receive His comforter, and that His People will have His statutes and Laws written on their hearts so that no one has to ask, "Do you know God?"


You make it seem like the Most High God is impotent to communicate with His people without the canon, or other humans.



The bible is a canon; the Word of God is a Living, Literal Entity known as the Son of Man (not the bible.) The bible is good for instruction, reproof and council. But, you already have a Perfect Spirit of Comfort and Conviction.

In order to receive the Holy Spirit, one must believe in Jesus (Galatians 3:14); in order to believe in Jesus one must hear about Him; in order for one to hear about Him there must be a preacher; and in order for there to be a preacher one must be sent (Romans 10:13-15). And also, what is it that must be preached but the word of the Lord God (2 Timothy 4:2, Titus 1:3 (kjv))?
 
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justbyfaith

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Which commandments we obey depends on whether we are a Jewish believer or a Gentile believer. Jews are bound to the 613 of the Torah by covenant -- our Jewish identity is uniquely caught up in Torah, because when we stop keeping the Torah, we forget we are Jews. We have the example of Jesus keeping the Torah, the Apostles and all the Jewish believers in Jerusalem being "zealous for Torah" (Acts 21:20) and Paul testifying that he has kept every Jewish law (Acts 25:8). Jesus instructs his Jewish followers to respect and obey the authority of the Sanhedrin in ALL they teach in Matthew 23:1-3.

Yet the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 very specifically states that Gentile believers do NOT have to become circumcised and obey Mosaic law.

Neither does Acts 15 prohibit those unique Gentiles who WANT to obey Mosaic law from doing so. If you WANT to keep the Sabbath or observe the kosher laws, please do so with our blessing. Acts 15 just says that it can't be forced on Gentile believers.

The laws for Gentiles are the basic morality taught in general Gentile society plus those things Judaism has to offer them: no idolatry, no fornication, abstinence from blood. If there is confusion over what exactly that means, Paul gives lists in several different letters. (No where is the Sabbath mentioned, BTW, which is kept to recall Israel's deliverance from slavery in Egypt.)

This does NOT mean that keeping either the Mosaic laws or the basic laws earn salvation. Rather, they are a path for sanctification.

The law is not a path to sanctification (see Galatians 3:3 and context).

It is a schoolmaster to show man that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour so that he will come to Christ and be saved through faith in Him (Galatians 3:24-25, Romans 3:19-20, Psalms 19:7; John 3:16, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
 
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justbyfaith

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The RCC says that moral law of God includes the moral law of God and that the moral law of God includes the TEN Commandments.

The Baptist confession of faith says that includes the moral law of God and that the moral law of God includes the TEN Commandments

The Westminster confession of faith says that includes the moral law of God and that the moral law of God includes the TEN Commandments

The Bible says it includes the unit of LAW where "the FIRST commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment "Honor your Father and Mother" -- Eph 6:2... which is of course the TEN Commandments.

The Bible says the Sabbath is for "all mankind" Isaiah 66:23 and specifically singles out "gentiles" Isaiah 56:5-8

The Sabbath commandment is quoted from in the NT... but the command "do not take God's name in vain" is not quoted from at all in the NT... which of course means nothing against the command to not take God's name in vain.. .it is just a "game" some folks like to play.
If I love Jesus I'm not going to take His name in vain...simple as that.

As for the sabbath...in the NT it is not about a specific day, it is a principle that boils down to a relationship with God.
 
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justbyfaith

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This is why Jesus instructs his followers to do and observe all that the Pharisees teach in Matthew 23:1-3
But not to do as they do; because in Jesus' day they were all hypocrites.
 
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