Who are the true Israelites

[keras]

I don't understand.
There were Jews and Gentiles as two groups of people , then according to you there is no more Jews and Gentiles but Church and Gentiles .

So Fake Jews must be Gentiles is this logic correct ?

People do not lose the ethnicity they were born with.
It is what they are in the sight of God, that really matters. As BaB points out, the true Jew and people from every race, nation and language who are born again Christian believers, are God's people, His Israelites. All the rest are the ungodly heathen, who will not participate in the Kingdom

 

[The Times]

And God told Abraham, any not circumcised were to be cut off. This meant they were not his covenant

Biblical Truth! How wonderful is God's Truth!
Circumcision and God's Covenant go hand in hand, that is one cannot be separated from the other.

So when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, he broke off all physical unbelieving members of Israel. This left only the believers in Christ who like Abraham had circumcised hearts.

To be circumcised meant you belonged to the house of Israel.

Israel within the Old Covenant was a person called Jacob.

Israel within the New Covenant is the SEED of PROMISE Jesus Christ.

The etymology of the word Isra-EL, comes from the terms Zera-EL, where Zera means SEED.

Israel means the SEED of Elohim, that is the SEED of God. Jesus is that SEED in the singular that Paul spoke about. (Galatians 3:16, 29)

The Etymology of the word is to contend for birth right, as Jacob wrestled with God to contend for that birth right, to be Abraham's heir.

Here is the Etymology....

Jesus replaced Jacob, Jacob is no longer called Israel. Jesus is the Prince Melchizedeck, Prince of Peace, the true and rightful heir of God, the Son of God, the true Zera (SEED) of God (Zera-EL).

God only granted Jacob as Israel by name only, until his true and rightful heir Jesus Christ, came into the world, to whom ownership of the name Israel is his and his only, for he, unlike Jacob is the Son of God, therefore dismissing Jacob's contention to the NAME Israel.

By invalidating circumcision, the Only biblical Israel today is Christendom. And the State of Israel is nothing more than the gentiles, calling themselves Jews, who trample down Jerusalem until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

Perfect Biblical exegesis. Those under the man Jacob, are become the Gentiles of the world, as Jacob no longer has rightful claim to the NAME Israel, as heir to the house of God.

Jesus is the Strong Man of his Father's house, for he is the only Israel of God. The rest who claim that name, have no right to it, unless they through the SEED OF PROMISE, are adopted into the house of God and have become citizens of the Heavenly Commonwealth of Isra-EL.

The people who use the name Israel and have no adoption, are like people who counterfeit and do forgery.

God will have no part with those who contend with his Son Jesus Christ for the NAME Israel.

Those who do not belong to the Son of God, do counterfeit and commit forgery and it is ironic that they claim "Replacement Theology", when in fact they are the ones committing it AGAINST the Son of God.

God will deal with those who deceptively use the name of Isra-EL, the NAME does not belong to them.

It is written......

Submit to God's royal son, or he will become angry, and you will be destroyed in the midst of all your activities--for his anger flares up in an instant. But what joy for all who take refuge in him! (Psalms 2:12)

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Israel, but the genuine Christian Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16

Jesus sent His Disciple-Apostles to Israel and Israel alone. Their mission was amazingly successful, resulting in the millions of Christians worldwide. Revelation 3:20
They didn’t disobey Jesus’ Command, because the people who heard the Gospel and who responded, plainly were Israelites, the ‘dispersion’, as John 7:35 informs us.

The prophecy of Caiaphas: John 11:50-52, was that; Jesus would die for the nation, in order to gather together the scattered children of God.

Jesus calls us His sheep, because we hear Him. Just as Noah heard God, and just as Abraham heard God. God says that no other people have heard Him but those with the faith of Abraham. He tells us that these are the people He chose... because they heard Him. Deuteronomy 7:6-10
Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

What else can it mean, but that every person who has understanding and who accepts the Gospel of Jesus, belongs to the true Israel? Grafted into the one Seed; Jesus, but an originally chosen, natural-born Israelite. John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

Since every nation in the world has been completely genetically mixed, the sheep who hear Jesus' voice are from all the tribes, races, nations and languages. Revelation 7:9
It IS the way to know that we ARE the true Israel, because we DO hear Jesus and as faithful Christians, worship and obey Him.

John 10:1-18 tells us in very specific terms, the nature of the sheep and the shepherd. If we truly match that definition, mind and soul, we have the faith of Abraham in our being.

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after righteousness, all who seek the Lord. Consider the Rock from which you are descended. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah, your mother, when I called him, he was but one; I Blessed him and he is now many. This is a direct reference to Christians.

The other aspect to this doctrine; is how some people are made for different purposes. Call it predestination, or God, the Potter making some ‘vessels’ to be kept and some to be discarded.

Romans 9:21-22 Surely the Potter can do what He likes with the clay? Is He not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured and one for common use?
But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display His retribution and to make His power known, it is that with great patience, He has tolerated vessels that are made for destruction?
Jeremiah 18:1-12

These are Bible truths, therefore it is beholden for us, who have had heard the ‘call of the Lord’ in our hearts, to be very sure to stand strong in our faith at all times and look forward to the great Day when Jesus comes, bringing our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27 Ref: logostelos.info

The second covenant was God’s plan all the way back in the book of Genesis. The First Covenant was simply the stepping stone to the second. This is prophesied in the lives of the people in that book. It’s why he always rejected the firstborn and chose the second born. He did it as prophecy.
http://wordservice.org/Symbolisms in Genesis/bs1000.htm

 

[Dan1988]

Being made for destruction, means just that. Sad, but it is God's choice.

All the longwinded and convoluted expositions on the subject of Election and Chosen, are overridden by; Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

BaBerean has replied to your false claim of 'replacement theology'. That old accusation is made by those whose false hope of a 'rapture to heaven' is destroyed by the truth of there being only One People of God, as there always has been, thru all the ages.

I suggest that you read Romans 11 again. There are many clearly stated truths there.
Paul, or the translators are often not clear about which Israel is meant, Romans 11:26 for example, refers to the whole of Israel, which as verse 25 says; includes the Gentiles; then admitted in their full strength. Israel; in verse 25, meaning just the Jewish people, have been partially hardened against the Gospel, as they are today. Only a remnant of the Jews will finally, be saved. Romans 9:27

It's very rare to find Christians who believe what Ephesians 1:4-5 says. Most Christians dismiss this scripture and ignore it because it doesn't fit into their (free choice) view.

Most Christians say they don't believe in free choice or predestination, they say it's something in between but they can't describe their position. They don't like to discuss the matter at all

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

It's very rare to find Christians who believe what Ephesians 1:4-5 says. Most Christians dismiss this scripture and ignore it because it doesn't fit into their (free choice) view.

Most Christians say they don't believe in free choice or predestination, they say it's something in between but they can't describe their position. They don't like to discuss the matter at all

The being chosen before the foundation of the world is more a reference to the second covenant and the way of salvation being brought to the earth through Jesus Christ rather than some kind of individual predestination is it not? In other words this entire plan of salvation was predestined since the beginning. Paul was recognizing how blessed they were to be part of that. I reference my article in my previous comment to validate this. It’s why all the first born were rejected in the book of Genesis and the second born chosen. It was prophecy about the first and second covenants. It as prophecy was showing what was predestined from the start.

 

[The Times]

A foreshadowing of what would take place on a permanent basis. The Cornerstone that God placed as the sure foundation, the stumbling block for the Jews without Jesus Christ, who err daily thinking that they are still of the Godly House of Israel. (1 Peter 2:4-8)

Isaiah 18:4
He will be a Holy place; for both Israel and Judah (one house in Christ Jesus) he will be a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem, he will be a trap and a snare.

The Jews of the 1st Century fell into that trap and snare and did not even realise it.

 

[BABerean2]

It's very rare to find Christians who believe what Ephesians 1:4-5 says. Most Christians dismiss this scripture and ignore it because it doesn't fit into their (free choice) view.

Most Christians say they don't believe in free choice or predestination, they say it's something in between but they can't describe their position. They don't like to discuss the matter at all

Because God stands outside of time and space, He knew who would follow Him and who would not, before He created the universe.

Therefore, through the very act of creating the universe, some would be the elect of God and some would not.

God did not cause Satan to rebel against Him, but God knew it would happen before the creation event.

God did not cause Adam to eat of the tree, but God knew it would happen before the creation event.

.

 

[Dan1988]

The being chosen before the foundation of the world is more a reference to the second covenant and the way of salvation being brought to the earth through Jesus Christ rather than some kind of individual predestination is it not? In other words this entire plan of salvation was predestined since the beginning. Paul was recognizing how blessed they were to be part of that. I reference my article in my previous comment to validate this. It’s why all the first born were rejected in the book of Genesis and the second born chosen. It was prophecy about the first and second covenants. It as prophecy was showing what was predestined from the start.

To conclude that all the scriptures regarding Gods elect and predestination, refer to a group of people is drawing a very long bow.

It is an attempt to get around the fact that God chose to save certain individuals, He called His elect who He chose before He laid the foundations of the world.

Most Christians hate the God who chose to save some, they love the god who chose to save the whole world. They say that a God who created people knowing they don't stand a chance of salvation, is a cruel and unfair God. I've had Christians say, they don't believe in that God.

I know most Christians have created a god in their own minds, who conforms to their expectations of how God should do things. If they read that God does things differently to what they approve of, they will reject that scripture and twist it to mean something else as you have done here.

I have nothing against you, I understand that it's hard to accept some of Gods attributes. I would encourage you to accept God as He is and pray that He would reveal the truth to you. Gods ways are so far above ours, that folks struggle to comprehend his ways.

We have not been called to question everything that God does and judge Him. We have been commanded to trust and obey Him. We have no right judge anything he does, it's a big sin to do so.

 

[Dan1988]

Because God stands outside of time and space, He knew who would follow Him and who would not, before He created the universe.

Therefore, through the very act of creating the universe, some would be the elect of God and some would not.

God did not cause Satan to rebel against Him, but God knew it would happen before the creation event.

God did not cause Adam to eat of the tree, but God knew it would happen before the creation event.

.

I have heard this argument many times, I asked our pastor about it and he doesn't agree with your view. He said God actually preordained everything, so that means that He created people who would reject the Gospel. So it's not a case of looking into the future and seeing who would believe and who wouldn't, it's a case of creating them to be believers and non believers.

The doctrine of election and reprobation, is a difficult subject for most people to accept. The problem arises when fallen sinful men with a very limited understanding try to understand why an infinitely wise and unlimited almighty God does what He does.

We must accept everything God does on His terms, we are not in a position to judge or criticize or disagree with Him. We simply need to trust, obey, worship and live by every Word that proceeds from His mouth. Let God be true and every man a liar

 

[keras]

The Cornerstone that God placed as the sure foundation, the stumbling block for the Jews without Jesus Christ, who err daily thinking that they are still of the Godly House of Israel

Its not so much the Jewish people thinking they are the still God's chosen people, although their arrogance and delusions of grandeur seems like it, but its the Christians who virtually worship them, with their adulation and massive financial support.
Groups like; Pray for Israel, ICEJ ministries, Kenneth Copeland and John Hagee, all think they are doing the right thing, but the Bible never says we should pray for Judah. In fact it says we should not pray for them, Jeremiah 14:11
What we are asked to pray for; is for the peace of the holy Land and Jerusalem

Why there is such an outpouring of support for the Jewish State of Israel from the Christians, is easily explained: it is from believers in the 'rapture to heaven' of the church, who have to have the Jews there in the Land, so as they can skive off to heaven.
Neither will happen. A rapture to heaven is not prophesied and the Jews will be Judged and punished in the forthcoming Day of the Lord's wrath by fire. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27

 

[The Times]

@keras I have thought long and hard about the 2nd lamb like beast who is Christ like, but speaks like a Dragon, as he raises the Image of the 1st Beast that was not and is now.

The 1st Beast that was during John's time and John witnessed that it was not.

The two beasts are in bed with each other today!

 

[Chinchilla]

People do not lose the ethnicity they were born with.
It is what they are in the sight of God, that really matters. As BaB points out, the true Jew and people from every race, nation and language who are born again Christian believers, are God's people, His Israelites. All the rest are the ungodly heathen, who will not participate in the Kingdom

So you claim that there two types of Jews the real ones and the fake ones ? And the third group the gentiles .

Would you say that there are one Spiritual Jews and the other Flesh Jews , because how can you fake being born of a Jewish woman ?

 

[BABerean2]

I have heard this argument many times, I asked our pastor about it and he doesn't agree with your view.

Do you believe God caused Satan to rebel against Him?

Do you believe God made Adam eat of the tree?

Ask your pastor those questions, if he declares himself to be a follower of John Calvin.

Then ask God those same questions.


Based on John 5:24 I was dead, but now I am alive.
Based on Galatians 3:2, and Ephesians 1:13, I received the Spirit upon faith in Christ.
I was like a dead man whose heart had stopped, and someone sent a jolt of electricity through his heart to start it.
That man comes to life at the instant the electricity jolts his heart. Not before, and not after.


Most Calvinists claim a person is regenerated before coming to faith.
This is one of the fatal flaws of the doctrine.

.

 

[Dan1988]

Do you believe God caused Satan to rebel against Him?

Do you believe God made Adam eat of the tree?

Ask your pastor those questions, if he declares himself to be a follower of John Calvin.

Then ask God those same questions.


Based on John 5:24 I was dead, but now I am alive.
Based on Galatians 3:2, and Ephesians 1:13, I received the Spirit upon faith in Christ.
I was like a dead man whose heart had stopped, and someone sent a jolt of electricity through his heart to start it.
That man comes to life at the instant the electricity jolts his heart. Not before, and not after.


Most Calvinists claim a person is regenerated before coming to faith.
This is one of the fatal flaws of the doctrine.

.

Yes we believe God is sovereign over anything you care to mention.

Yes we believe we are regenerated before we come to faith. We would never come to faith, unless God regenerated us and drew us to Himself and we respond by believing then everything necessary for salvation follows.

So yes we believe God causes us to believe the Gospel and then we receive Christ as our savior, then the Holy Spirit indwells us and leads us to salvation.

You will notice that in all of this, God is 100% responsible for choosing us and saving us. We were dead in our sins like everyone else, but He chose to give us spiritual life while leaving the non elect dead in their sin.

 

[dqhall]

The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Israel, but the genuine Christian Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16

Jesus sent His Disciple-Apostles to Israel and Israel alone. Their mission was amazingly successful, resulting in the millions of Christians worldwide. Revelation 3:20
They didn’t disobey Jesus’ Command, because the people who heard the Gospel and who responded, plainly were Israelites, the ‘dispersion’, as John 7:35 informs us.

The prophecy of Caiaphas: John 11:50-52, was that; Jesus would die for the nation, in order to gather together the scattered children of God.

Jesus calls us His sheep, because we hear Him. Just as Noah heard God, and just as Abraham heard God. God says that no other people have heard Him but those with the faith of Abraham. He tells us that these are the people He chose... because they heard Him. Deuteronomy 7:6-10
Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

What else can it mean, but that every person who has understanding and who accepts the Gospel of Jesus, belongs to the true Israel? Grafted into the one Seed; Jesus, but an originally chosen, natural-born Israelite. John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

Since every nation in the world has been completely genetically mixed, the sheep who hear Jesus' voice are from all the tribes, races, nations and languages. Revelation 7:9
It IS the way to know that we ARE the true Israel, because we DO hear Jesus and as faithful Christians, worship and obey Him.

John 10:1-18 tells us in very specific terms, the nature of the sheep and the shepherd. If we truly match that definition, mind and soul, we have the faith of Abraham in our being.

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after righteousness, all who seek the Lord. Consider the Rock from which you are descended. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah, your mother, when I called him, he was but one; I Blessed him and he is now many. This is a direct reference to Christians.

The other aspect to this doctrine; is how some people are made for different purposes. Call it predestination, or God, the Potter making some ‘vessels’ to be kept and some to be discarded.

Romans 9:21-22 Surely the Potter can do what He likes with the clay? Is He not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured and one for common use?
But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display His retribution and to make His power known, it is that with great patience, He has tolerated vessels that are made for destruction?
Jeremiah 18:1-12

These are Bible truths, therefore it is beholden for us, who have had heard the ‘call of the Lord’ in our hearts, to be very sure to stand strong in our faith at all times and look forward to the great Day when Jesus comes, bringing our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27 Ref: logostelos.info

Israelites live in Israel and speak Hebrew. They are circumcised and ate foods that are Kosher.

Jesus came to teach a covenant of truth. Paul taught that this covenant did not require circumcision, thus it was not the covenant Israel received from the writer of the books of Moses.

Galatians 5:2 (WEB) Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.

Jesus did not come to abolish laws against murder and adultery (Matthew 5).

How is it that 75% of the United States claims to be Christian and the murder rate here is more than double the murder rate in Israel? Does Israel have stricter gun control laws?

How is it Israeli Jews have a divorce rate of 30%, while the US divorce rate is 50%? Who are the true Israelites?

John 4:24 (WEB) God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

 

[Ken Rank]

Our pastor teaches us that the scriptures are quite easy to understand. The Bible was written in a way that the average person can fully understand if he has the Holy Spirit indwelling him. If he doesn't have the Holy Spirit, then all scripture is foolishness to him.

I don't completely disagree with you but the bible also says to "study to show yourself approved, workman unto God." It isn't just downloaded into us, we have to study. So, back in the day Paul's writings were hard to understand and twisted by those who were untrained. There is no difference today.... Paul used certain interpretational/exegetical rules when he wrote and the church isn't even taught these rules exist. They are designed to affect context, and we don't even know they exist even though Paul uses them over 30 times in his writings.

So easy to understand? Yes... at least in order to find God initially. But when it comes to discipleship, we need to dig and study and pray or we leave food on the table God desires us to eat.

By the way, if you want to read a good article by a friend and scholar on those rules Paul uses, you can read it here.

 

[Dan1988]

I don't completely disagree with you but the bible also says to "study to show yourself approved, workman unto God." It isn't just downloaded into us, we have to study. So, back in the day Paul's writings were hard to understand and twisted by those who were untrained. There is no difference today.... Paul used certain interpretational/exegetical rules when he wrote and the church isn't even taught these rules exist. They are designed to affect context, and we don't even know they exist even though Paul uses them over 30 times in his writings.

So easy to understand? Yes... at least in order to find God initially. But when it comes to discipleship, we need to dig and study and pray or we leave food on the table God desires us to eat.

By the way, if you want to read a good article by a friend and scholar on those rules Paul uses, you can read it here.

Thanks for that article I had a quick read and it sounds very interesting. I have saved it so I can read the whole article later.

The point our pastor was making was the same as what you're saying, we need to pray before we study scripture. He said folks end up with many different views about the same scripture, because they use their human reasoning to decipher spiritual things.

Most Christian denomination disagree over so many scriptures. The Church is divided many ways because they all hold to their own view being the right one and everyone else is wrong.

I believe the Bible best interprets itself, if we allow God to speak to us through His spoken Word.

I only converted to Christianity from Roman Catholicism 3 years ago, so i'm trying to learn as much as possible as soon as possible, because the locusts have eaten up my years.

I study the Bible every day for about an hour, and I listen to sermons on sermonaudio.com

 

[Ken Rank]

Thanks for that article I had a quick read and it sounds very interesting. I have saved it so I can read the whole article later.

The point our pastor was making was the same as what you're saying, we need to pray before we study scripture. He said folks end up with many different views about the same scripture, because they use their human reasoning to decipher spiritual things.

Most Christian denomination disagree over so many scriptures. The Church is divided many ways because they all hold to their own view being the right one and everyone else is wrong.

I believe the Bible best interprets itself, if we allow God to speak to us through His spoken Word.

I only converted to Christianity from Roman Catholicism 3 years ago, so i'm trying to learn as much as possible as soon as possible, because the locusts have eaten up my years.

I study the Bible every day for about an hour, and I listen to sermons on sermonaudio.com

I love your heart... keep up the good work. Yes... the division really depresses me at times. God mentions 6 things He hates (Pro. 6:16-19) and seven being an abomination. One of the things He mentions is when a brother causes division among other brothers. And that is what we see within the denominational world. Brothers dividing usually over an interpretation that is pridefully too important to us personally. I pray for the day we figure this out.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Dan1988]

I love your heart... keep up the good work. Yes... the division really depresses me at times. God mentions 6 things He hates (Pro. 6:16-19) and seven being an abomination. One of the things He mentions is when a brother causes division among other brothers. And that is what we see within the denominational world. Brothers dividing usually over an interpretation that is pridefully too important to us personally. I pray for the day we figure this out.

Blessings.
Ken

I told our pastor that I'm trying to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible. He told me that the most important thing is our standing before God, he said God looks at the heart. He's not going to hold it against you if your theology isn't up to scratch.

He mentioned how the thief on the cross was saved in a moment of time, he didn't have a chance to go and study the scriptures to make himself acceptable before God.

Those of us who have the opportunity to study scriptures should treasure the opportunity. We get news letters from our brothers and sisters in the Middle east, they are being tortured and executed for their faith in Christ. They would love to worship Him openly and without the fear of persecution or death.

 

[Ken Rank]

I told our pastor that I'm trying to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible. He told me that the most important thing is our standing before God, he said God looks at the heart. He's not going to hold it against you if your theology isn't up to scratch.

He mentioned how the thief on the cross was saved in a moment of time, he didn't have a chance to go and study the scriptures to make himself acceptable before God.

Those of us who have the opportunity to study scriptures should treasure the opportunity. We get news letters from our brothers and sisters in the Middle east, they are being tortured and executed for their faith in Christ. They would love to worship Him openly and without the fear of persecution or death.

We are similar... when I came to Christ I was 29 and I really had no Christianity before. So I read for 3 hours a day, listened to about 8 hours of a Christian talk radio station a day, went to two services, and two classes a week... I couldn't get enough. It's been 23 years now... wow, time flies.

Blessings brother.
Ken