Arizona Court of Appeals rules in favor of SS couple, based on SC Masterpiece ruling

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Queller said in post #642:

Let's propose for a moment that a homosexual orientation is a choice. So what?

Homosexuality is a sin (Romans 1:26-27).

Queller said in post #642:

Should people be denied their rights because of choice?

In the case of the OP, homosexuals were not actually denied their rights.

Nonetheless, homosexuals and their supporters still mistakenly claim that a Christian calligrapher not writing invitations to a gay wedding shows "hatred" and "discrimination" against gays themselves, in their persons, when in fact what is being discriminated against is not any person (i.e. the calligrapher could write birthday-party invitations for a gay person), but is against the practice of homosexuality itself, which would be promoted by supporting a gay wedding. Christians have the First Amendment right to the "free exercise" of their religion, which requires that they not support sinful activities (Ephesians 5:11), such as homosexuality (Romans 1:26-27) or adultery (Galatians 5:19-21), or pedophilia for that matter (Mark 9:42).

For example, in the "Masterpiece" Supreme Court case, the homosexual plaintiffs even admitted that the Christian baker told them:

"I’ll make you birthday cakes, shower cakes, sell you cookies and brownies, I just don’t make cakes for same - sex weddings."

So he was not discriminating against their persons at all, but was discriminating against an event which goes against his religion.

*******

Queller said in post #645:

There's not one bit of scientific or legal evidence that "Christian Gay Conversion Therapy" works at all.

There is evidence. Just read the personal testimonies (not hearsay), which can be found online, of the Christians who have been helped by Christian Gay Conversion Therapy to become straight, or at least to no longer practice homosexuality.

For Jesus Christ can free Christians from any sin (John 8:34-36).

Queller said in post #645:

What on earth makes you think the mountain referred to in Matthew [4:8] is Mt. Zion?

It's the mount Zion in heaven (Hebrews 12:22), from where the earth can be viewed (Psalms 102:19).

Queller said in post #645:

[Re: Matthew 20:29-30]

Not according to Mark 10:46-52 and Luke 18:35-43. In those accounts Jesus only heals one man.

They don't say "only". They simply focus on one of the two men in Matthew 20:29-30.

*******

Queller said in post #646:

[Re: Then can the practice of pedophilia be accepted because what pedophiles do is their genetic "sexual orientation"?]

I see you don't understand what "consent" means.

Note that in our future, pedophilia could be legalized in all cases where "consent" has been established in court, or by some other legal means.

As an example, imagine that a man is brought before a municipal court on charges of pedophilia with a thirteen-year-old boy. The defendant's counsel brings the boy to the stand to testify.

"Can you say whether you have been harmed by the defendant?"

"No, sir. I have been in no way harmed, but only loved. Preciously loved, like I have never known before."

"Then he did not force himself upon you?"

"No, in no way. He has loved me tenderly from the start. He fills me up with his love. He is my lover. My man. I cannot imagine living without him."

At this point, the defendant's upper lip begins to quiver. And in the jury, a woman's eyes well up with tears. She dabs them with a tissue.

Then the defendant's counsel brings a respected psychiatrist to the stand to testify. The defendant's counsel tells the judge:

"Your honor, the next witness is an advocate for homosexuality and transgenderism, who has proven in peer-reviewed articles in top psychiatric journals that neither homosexuality nor transgenderism per se requires any mental illness whatsoever. To reject her testimony would be to reject these normal expressions of human sexuality, just as I hope to show the court that pedophilia can also be a normal expression of human sexuality."

Judge: "Proceed".

Defendant's counsel to the psychiatrist: "Has the defendant abused the child mentally?"

"Not at all. He has shown the child only gentleness, kindness, and love. I have thoroughly examined the child psychiatrically, and he is in perfect mental and emotional health. It would be a total crime to separate him from his lover."

The judge shifts in his seat. For his municipal jurisdiction has clearly outlawed pedophilia.

But at the end of the trial, the jury goes to deliberations and uses "jury nullification" to declare the pedophile innocent. (Jury nullification allows a jury to declare a defendant innocent regardless of the law or the facts in a case.)

The prosecutor appeals to state court, which agrees with him that the law has been broken. But the defendant appeals to federal district court, which agrees with him that no harm, and so no crime, has been committed. The prosecutor appeals to federal circuit court, which agrees with him, saying that the local jurisdiction had the right to outlaw pedophilia in every case. But the defendant appeals to the Supreme Court, which rules that pedophilia is lawful in every case where the child's consent and mental health have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

And so pedophilia joins homosexuality and transgenderism as a normal, lawful expression of human sexuality. Pedophilia becomes just another natural, "sexual orientation". Pedophiles become simply "lovers of children", the literal meaning of the word "pedo-phile".

And then the SPLC begins to persecute as "hate groups" any Christian groups who continue to say that pedophilia is sinful.

*******

Queller said in post #648:

[Re: Jesus Christ can cure anything by His miraculous power (Mark 5:25-34)]

Then how come He never heals amputees?

He could, for He can even raise people from the dead (John 12:1). And he will cure obedient Christian amputees by resurrecting them at His future, Second Coming into perfect, immortal, physical resurrection bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-58, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25).

Indeed, even Christians who will be beheaded in our future will be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:4-6).

*******

Queller said in post #649:

[Re: Romans 1:26-27]

Can you point to the location of those verses in the Constitution?

They would be included as part of the protection of religion from the government as required by the First Amendment.

*******

Queller said in post #650:

At no time has prayer ever been outlawed in public schools.

It has, since 1962.

Queller said in post #650:

Students are free to pray whenever they are not actively engaging in classroom activities.

No, they aren't. For example, they can't have a prayer said at graduation or at a school football game.

Queller said in post #650:

What has been taken out of schools is the ability of teachers and administrators to force children to participate in the Christian religion against their will.

No, even voluntary prayers are forbidden at school events.

Queller said in post #650:

It was a sinful nation long before forced prayer was removed from the schools and long before abortion and same-sex marriage were legalized.

Not as sinful. Everyone knows that the U.S. began to lose its moral compass beginning in the 1960's, after school prayer was outlawed.

Queller said in post #650:

[Re: Also, it has never been proven that homosexuality is inborn]

All the evidence points to that conclusion.

No, it doesn't. Also, even if homosexuality could ever be proven to be genetic, so could alcoholism, criminal violence, and schizophrenia. Human genes in their current, fallen, corrupted state have nothing to do with proving what is moral, or what is good mental health.

*******

Queller said in post #651:

How do you explain the existence of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, the Interfaith Society, and others at my daughter's high school here in ultra-liberal Maryland?

They can't have a prayer said before their school games or other activities.

Queller said in post #651:

Floyd County High School Students Allowed to Post Religious Messages on Lockers

Their own lockers. But they can't pray out loud at school activities, even if everyone in the school is Christian and wants to pray.

So their "free exercise" of religion has been denied by the government, just as homosexuals now want to deny the free exercise of Biblical Christianity to not support sinful events (Ephesians 5:11).

Queller said in post #651:

[Re: A change in behavior shows a change in orientation]

No, it does not.

It does. For without a change in orientation there would be no arousal for a change in behavior.
 
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Clint Edwards said in post #644:

The issue with me was always the bastardization of the language in which marriage was always between a man and a woman . . .

That's right.

Homosexuality is "against nature" (Romans 1:26-27) in the sense of how God created nature to work:

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

God never intended for males to become sexually joined or married to other males, just as God never intended for females to become sexually joined or married to other females.
 
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Homosexuality is a sin (Romans 1:26-27).



In the case of the OP, homosexuals were not actually denied their rights.

Nonetheless, homosexuals and their supporters still mistakenly claim that a Christian calligrapher not writing invitations to a gay wedding shows "hatred" and "discrimination" against gays themselves, in their persons, when in fact what is being discriminated against is not any person (i.e. the calligrapher could write birthday-party invitations for a gay person), but is against the practice of homosexuality itself, which would be promoted by supporting a gay wedding. Christians have the First Amendment right to the "free exercise" of their religion, which requires that they not support sinful activities (Ephesians 5:11), such as homosexuality (Romans 1:26-27) or adultery (Galatians 5:19-21), or pedophilia for that matter (Mark 9:42).

For example, in the "Masterpiece" Supreme Court case, the homosexual plaintiffs even admitted that the Christian baker told them:

"I’ll make you birthday cakes, shower cakes, sell you cookies and brownies, I just don’t make cakes for same - sex weddings."

So he was not discriminating against their persons at all, but was discriminating against an event which goes against his religion.

*******



There is evidence. Just read the personal testimonies (not hearsay), which can be found online, of the Christians who have been helped by Christian Gay Conversion Therapy to become straight, or at least to no longer practice homosexuality.

For Jesus Christ can free Christians from any sin (John 8:34-36).



It's the mount Zion in heaven (Hebrews 12:22), from where the earth can be viewed (Psalms 102:19).



They don't say "only". They simply focus on one of the two men in Matthew 20:29-30.

*******



Note that in our future, pedophilia could be legalized in all cases where "consent" has been established in court, or by some other legal means.

As an example, imagine that a man is brought before a municipal court on charges of pedophilia with a thirteen-year-old boy. The defendant's counsel brings the boy to the stand to testify.

"Can you say whether you have been harmed by the defendant?"

"No, sir. I have been in no way harmed, but only loved. Preciously loved, like I have never known before."

"Then he did not force himself upon you?"

"No, in no way. He has loved me tenderly from the start. He fills me up with his love. He is my lover. My man. I cannot imagine living without him."

At this point, the defendant's upper lip begins to quiver. And in the jury, a woman's eyes well up with tears. She dabs them with a tissue.

Then the defendant's counsel brings a respected psychiatrist to the stand to testify. The defendant's counsel tells the judge:

"Your honor, the next witness is an advocate for homosexuality and transgenderism, who has proven in peer-reviewed articles in top psychiatric journals that neither homosexuality nor transgenderism per se requires any mental illness whatsoever. To reject her testimony would be to reject these normal expressions of human sexuality, just as I hope to show the court that pedophilia can also be a normal expression of human sexuality."

Judge: "Proceed".

Defendant's counsel to the psychiatrist: "Has the defendant abused the child mentally?"

"Not at all. He has shown the child only gentleness, kindness, and love. I have thoroughly examined the child psychiatrically, and he is in perfect mental and emotional health. It would be a total crime to separate him from his lover."

The judge shifts in his seat. For his municipal jurisdiction has clearly outlawed pedophilia.

But at the end of the trial, the jury goes to deliberations and uses "jury nullification" to declare the pedophile innocent. (Jury nullification allows a jury to declare a defendant innocent regardless of the law or the facts in a case.)

The prosecutor appeals to state court, which agrees with him that the law has been broken. But the defendant appeals to federal district court, which agrees with him that no harm, and so no crime, has been committed. The prosecutor appeals to federal circuit court, which agrees with him, saying that the local jurisdiction had the right to outlaw pedophilia in every case. But the defendant appeals to the Supreme Court, which rules that pedophilia is lawful in every case where the child's consent and mental health have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

And so pedophilia joins homosexuality and transgenderism as a normal, lawful expression of human sexuality. Pedophilia becomes just another natural, "sexual orientation". Pedophiles become simply "lovers of children", the literal meaning of the word "pedo-phile".

And then the SPLC begins to persecute as "hate groups" any Christian groups who continue to say that pedophilia is sinful.

*******



He could, for He can even raise people from the dead (John 12:1). And he will cure obedient Christian amputees by resurrecting them at His future, Second Coming into perfect, immortal, physical resurrection bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-58, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25).

Indeed, even Christians who will be beheaded in our future will be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:4-6).

*******



They would be included as part of the protection of religion from the government as required by the First Amendment.

*******



It has, since 1962.



No, they aren't. For example, they can't have a prayer said at graduation or at a school football game.



No, even voluntary prayers are forbidden at school events.



Not as sinful. Everyone knows that the U.S. began to lose its moral compass beginning in the 1960's, after school prayer was outlawed.



No, it doesn't. Also, even if homosexuality could ever be proven to be genetic, so could alcoholism, criminal violence, and schizophrenia. Human genes in their current, fallen, corrupted state have nothing to do with proving what is moral, or what is good mental health.

*******



They can't have a prayer said before their school games or other activities.



Their own lockers. But they can't pray out loud at school activities, even if everyone in the school is Christian and wants to pray.

So their "free exercise" of religion has been denied by the government, just as homosexuals now want to deny the free exercise of Biblical Christianity to not support sinful events (Ephesians 5:11).



It does. For without a change in orientation there would be no arousal for a change in behavior.
Great post ! A silent minute at the start of school is outlawed because it " implies and pressures the student to pray "
 
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Clint Edwards said in post #663:

A silent minute at the start of school is outlawed because it " implies and pressures the student to pray "

We can agree that such a claim is absurd, especially in these days.

For even if a school started each day with a spoken prayer, non-religious students today would feel no pressure to have any part of it.

Instead, while the other students bowed their heads in prayer to Almighty God, non-religious students would simply bow their heads into their smartphones, and play with them during the prayer.

-

It is abomination that the government has prohibited the free exercise of religion in the schools. "Engel" must be overturned as soon as possible.

Also, the sweet and utterly-innocuous prayer outlawed by "Engel" was no more "indoctrinating" than the repeated references to God in the Declaration of Independence.

It is evil to claim that the U.S. must have no Christian foundation. For the U.S. in no way forces any citizen to follow Christianity.

The very serious missteps of the Supreme Court in the past must be rectified.

A movement needs to begin in the U.S. to restore prayer to the schools, which have become hotbeds of insane "political correctness", which is ultimately Satanic, for it loves to focus on issues which are anti-Christian.
 
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That is a social consensus, not based upon conclusive evidence. One idea is based on brain size, another hormones, another, hormones produced by the mother during gestation etc., etc., some have now been abandoned, others pop up, there is no homogeneous accepted theory. Since the fad now us that it is based on inborn physical factors, the rush is to find evidence that supports the conclusion. The dog wags the tail.
no it is the scientific consensus. The mechanisms are unknown but it remains inborn
 
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SilverBear

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Homosexuality is a sin (Romans 1:26-27).



In the case of the OP, homosexuals were not actually denied their rights.
yeah, they were. Specifically they were denied equal access under the public accommodation laws.

Nonetheless, homosexuals and their supporters still mistakenly claim that a Christian calligrapher not writing invitations to a gay wedding shows "hatred" and "discrimination" against gays themselves, in their persons, when in fact what is being discriminated against is not any person (i.e. the calligrapher could write birthday-party invitations for a gay person), but is against the practice of homosexuality itself, which would be promoted by supporting a gay wedding. Christians have the First Amendment right to the "free exercise" of their religion, which requires that they not support sinful activities (Ephesians 5:11), such as homosexuality (Romans 1:26-27) or adultery (Galatians 5:19-21), or pedophilia for that matter (Mark 9:42).
The courts have tossed this line of "reasoning " out on it's ear already.

For example, in the "Masterpiece" Supreme Court case, the homosexual plaintiffs even admitted that the Christian baker told them:

"I’ll make you birthday cakes, shower cakes, sell you cookies and brownies, I just don’t make cakes for same - sex weddings."

So he was not discriminating against their persons at all, but was discriminating against an event which goes against his religion.
Of course it is discriminatory. If a gas station refused to sell Asians any gasoline but says they are welcome to purchase any sort of candy from the station the refusal to sell gas is still discrimination.
 
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no it is the scientific consensus. The mechanisms are unknown but it remains inborn
If the mechanisms are unknown, then the effects are unknown, then the conclusion has no more value than an opinion. My daughter once had an opinion that unicorns existed. Her opinion was based upon unknown mechanisms as well.
 
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There is evidence. Just read the personal testimonies (not hearsay), which can be found online, of the Christians who have been helped by Christian Gay Conversion Therapy to become straight, or at least to no longer practice homosexuality.
i can also go and read the personal testimonies of people saying they were abducted by UFO's but i can't view that as evidence that there is an alien civilization from Beta Riiculi visiting Earth
 
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If the mechanisms are unknown, then the effects are unknown, then the conclusion has no more value than an opinion. My daughter once had an opinion that unicorns existed. Her opinion was based upon unknown mechanisms as well.
the mechanisms for gravity are unknown are you really dishonest enough to pretend that we do not or cannot know the effects of gravity?
 
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the mechanisms for gravity are unknown are you really dishonest enough to pretend that we do not or cannot know the effects of gravity?
Gravity exists, whatever you call it, things fall down. Larger bodies of mass attract smaller bodies of mass. Space time is warped by something, called gravity, at the center of black holes is a singularity of infinite gravity/density. Homosexuality exists. It has always been considered a mental/psychological issue until social pressures came to the conclusion it wasn't. So now the mantra is that it is inborn. You have the disgusting temerity to call me dishonest because I refuse to get on the bandwagon of this latest bit of social unproven opinion. You don't like my views and feel threatened by them, fine, the truth can be painful. You have the right to believe whatever you choose. You have the right to pretend to be, or be whatever you want to be.

You do not have the right to demand that others put your wool over their eyes.

When you have CONCLUSIVE scientific evidence supporting your position, I will consider it.

Otherwise, what you speak is propaganda to convince the gullible and fellow travelers.

I deal with facts, not emotional hyped we wants, we demand.

It's not my fault doesn't fly unless you can show it isn't your fault, no matter how many screech " it isn't his fault ".
 
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i can also go and read the personal testimonies of people saying they were abducted by UFO's but i can't view that as evidence that there is an alien civilization from Beta Riiculi visiting Earth
Hmmm. I KNOW EX homosexuals who are now happily married to the opposite sex, with natural born children. I know homosexuals who are totally and completely celibate because they love God more than their lust.

Elsewhere you called me dishonest because I didn';t agree with you.

Feel free to call me a liar here for the same reason.

The truth can be painful.
 
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yeah, they were. Specifically they were denied equal access under the public accommodation laws.

The courts have tossed this line of "reasoning " out on it's ear already.

Of course it is discriminatory. If a gas station refused to sell Asians any gasoline but says they are welcome to purchase any sort of candy from the station the refusal to sell gas is still discrimination.
The Bible says nothing about Asian weddings being an abomination.

These issues aren't settled law till the supreme court rules. Lets see how that goes, shall we ?

"equal accommodation laws" don't trump the first amendment to the United States Constitution.
 
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what a sad,, stupid and bigoted argument.
No, not at all. There are liberal professors at major universities proposing that pedophilia is simply another gender, and that certain sexual acts performed with children aren't harmful.

Do necrophiliacs simply represent a gender ? After all, they harm no one capable of being harmed.

Perhaps we should allow them to buy approved body's so they don't have to break into funeral parlors and such.
 
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We can agree that such a claim is absurd, especially in these days.

For even if a school started each day with a spoken prayer, non-religious students today would feel no pressure to have any part of it.

Instead, while the other students bowed their heads in prayer to Almighty God, non-religious students would simply bow their heads into their smartphones, and play with them during the prayer.

-

It is abomination that the government has prohibited the free exercise of religion in the schools. "Engel" must be overturned as soon as possible.

Also, the sweet and utterly-innocuous prayer outlawed by "Engel" was no more "indoctrinating" than the repeated references to God in the Declaration of Independence.

It is evil to claim that the U.S. must have no Christian foundation. For the U.S. in no way forces any citizen to follow Christianity.

The very serious missteps of the Supreme Court in the past must be rectified.

A movement needs to begin in the U.S. to restore prayer to the schools, which have become hotbeds of insane "political correctness", which is ultimately Satanic, for it loves to focus on issues which are anti-Christian.
The anti establishment clause has been legally disabused to create the unenumerated rule of " strict separation of church and state" From it we get crosses being torn down, demands to have Stars of David and crosses, and assumed other religious symbols removed from tombstones in public cemeteries, Monuments to dead soldiers bastardized because they have religious symbols and all the other nonsense.

The anti establishment clause is about just that, an established state religion declared as such supported and funded by the government just like England had at the time of the revolution and still has.
Until the twentieth century, until much less than a hundred years ago, the anti establishment clause was NEVER interpreted to mean a wall between church and state, never.

If this was what the Founders meant, don't you think they as Presidents, Supreme Court members and Congressmen would have moved to establish this doctrine in their time ?

They didn't because it was't what they meant.

Another case of the judiciary deciding what they know is best and fashioning the Constitution to say what they want.

We need a judiciary who establishes law upon what the Constitution actually and literally says, not upon what they, or even the majority wants.

I think that kind of judiciary is about to break over the horizon, as Dylan sang, " you don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind is blowing" !
 
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Gravity exists, whatever you call it, things fall down. Larger bodies of mass attract smaller bodies of mass. Space time is warped by something, called gravity, at the center of black holes is a singularity of infinite gravity/density.
but we don't know the mechanics of it and according to you: "If the mechanisms are unknown, then the effects are unknown."


Homosexuality exists. It has always been considered a mental/psychological issue until social pressures came to the conclusion it wasn't.
no it hasn't. the disease model is relatively new and comes from political and religious pressures. there has never been any evidence that homosexuality is a pathology or a mental illness. In most cultures homosexuals were regarded as military and spiritual leaders. Go look it up.

So now the mantra is that it is inborn. You have the disgusting temerity to call me dishonest because I refuse to get on the bandwagon of this latest bit of social unproven opinion. You don't like my views and feel threatened by them, fine, the truth can be painful. You have the right to believe whatever you choose. You have the right to pretend to be, or be whatever you want to be.
threatened? ^_^

the truth is all of the evidence supports an inborn origin. All of it.

I get why you cling to the lie that it isn't something natural. If you pretend homosexuality is a choice or a disease then you also get to pretend that you are nothing like racists that you are morally superior to people like racists. You aren't morally superior, homophobes are far less ethical than racists. Racists by and large don't go after children keeping them out of the fray, and as a rule treat black children quite well. Homophobes on the other hand work to inflict conversion therapies on children as young as 3 and fight any anti-bullying programs that includes education about homosexuals.

You do not have the right to demand that others put your wool over their eyes.

When you have CONCLUSIVE scientific evidence supporting your position, I will consider it.
no you won't.

no matter how sound and conclusive evidence might be you will still reject it out of hand

Otherwise, what you speak is propaganda to convince the gullible and fellow travelers.

I deal with facts, not emotional hyped we wants, we demand.

It's not my fault doesn't fly unless you can show it isn't your fault, no matter how many screech " it isn't his fault ".
you ignore facts
 
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Hmmm. I KNOW EX homosexuals who are now happily married to the opposite sex, with natural born children. I know homosexuals who are totally and completely celibate because they love God more than their lust.

Elsewhere you called me dishonest because I didn';t agree with you.

Feel free to call me a liar here for the same reason.

The truth can be painful.
and I know UFO abductees.

still no evidence of the pesky little gray guys from Beta Reticuli
 
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No, not at all. There are liberal professors at major universities proposing that pedophilia is simply another gender, and that certain sexual acts performed with children aren't harmful.
I would ask you to provide evidence to back up whopper but in the past you have never been honest enough to back up any of your claims and i can't imagine you are going to start now
 
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I would ask you to provide evidence to back up whopper but in the past you have never been honest enough to back up any of your claims and i can't imagine you are going to start now
Dr. Anne Hendershot, Kings College, NY. ¨The Politics of Deviance¨. She documents the movement called ¨intergenerational intimacy¨, all the European and American professors who support it, mostly homosexuals, and their writings. You won´t bother with it, you will just whine.
 
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