Rapture Wimpism

[Biblewriter]

Israel is genetically in all of us. Are we all heirs, saint and sinner alike?

No, we are not all descendants of Israel. If we were, the scriptural promises to the twelve individual tribes would be meaningless. Peddle your "science" elsewhere.

 

[Chinchilla]

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture wimps.”

I am a rapture wimp and I disagree with you

Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Let's invoke some proverbs here
Proverbs 26:5

Let's assume you are right and church goes through tribulation , how do you explain this contradiction ?

Matthew 16:18
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Before you argue what a saint is here is definition 1 Corinthians 6:2

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

 

[keras]

No, we are not all descendants of Israel. If we were, the scriptural promises to the twelve individual tribes would be meaningless. Peddle your "science" elsewhere.

We don't need science to know that since Jesus came, He is the true Overcomer, the Victorious One and the Israel of God. As Jacob was and now as all we Christians are, attached to the Tree of Life, the real Israelites of God. Galatians 3:26-29, Galatians 6:14-16

Isaiah 66:18b-21 plainly states that the faithful people of God, [born again Christians] will be gathered into the holy Land and from them, [us] He will select Levites to serve Him.
This truth parallels Revelation 7, where a 'vast multitude from every tribe, race, nation and language' are gathered in Jerusalem soon after the Sixth Seal event has cleared all that area.
Jesus will be revealed to us, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Revelation 14:1-5 and He will assign everyone to a tribe. Revelation 5:9-10 From those tribes He will select 12,000 young people to be sent out to proclaim the good news of the coming Kingdom to all the world. Isaiah 66:19, Revelation 14:6-7 [the 'angel' is an allegory for them] As the 72 were sent; Luke 10:1-10

We will have to face further trials and testing, but when Jesus Returns in glory, we will meet Him in the clouds, then be with Him for His reign on earth.

 

[BABerean2]

No, we are not all descendants of Israel. If we were, the scriptural promises to the twelve individual tribes would be meaningless. Peddle your "science" elsewhere.

Did James think the promises were "meaningless" in the passage below?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

Did James think the promises were "meaningless" in the passage below?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

.

Your post did not even address, much less answer, what I said.

 

[Richard T]

post moved

 

[Biblewriter]

post moved

Everything that can be said has already been repeatedly said here, many times over.

 

[Richard T]

Hello Richard T.
You are new here and normally anyone new to anywhere, they take care to say something we don't already know or promote a new concept.
Your old teaching of a 'rapture to heaven' has been well worked over here. I totally refute it and I do so because the Bible never says such a thing as people going to live in heaven. In fact Jesus Himself refutes it; John 3:13 and in many other scriptures.
Your quote refers to the glorious Return of Jesus, when He will send out His angels to gather His own people. Matthew 24:31 tells it plainly. It is a transportation from one earthly place to another. Jesus' will meet His people in the clouds; all those who have kept their faith during the testing times, as prophesied before His Return.[/QUOTE]

Excuse me for sharing a truth as many do see it. Though the debate on the rapture goes ad museum I doubt anyone in here says anything that has not already been said. I did offer my opinion which was conciliatory and certainly unknown to any here (new or otherwise). Sorry to have given you angst.

 

[BABerean2]

Your post did not even address, much less answer, what I said.

I know the feeling.

You ignored the fact that James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes".

Who was James addressing in James 1:1?

.

 

[iamlamad]

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture wimps.”

This is a red herring, if ever there was one. Even believers in the US suffer tribulation, just to to the extent it would be if this were a Muslim country. However, it is a red herring because "tribulation" and the wrath of God are two different things; and it is HIS WRATH on earth that He promised to deliver us from.

For anyone who can read and understand what they read, John shows us HIS WRATH begins at the 6th seal as the start of the Day of the Lord. Then the 7th seal officially opens Daniel's 70th week, and God's wrath builds to the vials. The 7th vial ends the week. The rapture therefore must and will come before the 6th seal that begins judgment.

 

[BABerean2]

This is a red herring, if ever there was one. Even believers in the US suffer tribulation, just to to the extent it would be if this were a Muslim country. However, it is a red herring because "tribulation" and the wrath of God are two different things; and it is HIS WRATH on earth that He promised to deliver us from.

For anyone who can read and understand what they read, John shows us HIS WRATH begins at the 6th seal as the start of the Day of the Lord. Then the 7th seal officially opens Daniel's 70th week, and God's wrath builds to the vials. The 7th vial ends the week. The rapture therefore must and will come before the 6th seal that begins judgment.

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Rev 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

We know from the fact that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19 that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

.

 

[jgr]

No, we are not all descendants of Israel. If we were, the scriptural promises to the twelve individual tribes would be meaningless. Peddle your "science" elsewhere.

There's an organization known as the "Flat Earth Society". They're continually seeking individuals with the fortitude to believe myth over truth.

They'd welcome you with unreserved enthusiasm.

Jewish genetic ubiquity is proven both genetically and mathematically, and is acknowledged and applauded by the Jewish community.

Only dispensational hubris would claim to know more about Jewish genetics than the Jews know about their own genetics.

The OT Scriptural promises were to the faithful and obedient within the twelve tribes. The promises therefore negated ethnicity as a criterion. God slew unfaithful and disobedient ethnic Israelites by the thousands.

Under God's New Will and Testament, all of His promises and bequests are fulfilled by and reserved for His Son, and those faithful and obedient to His Son (Galatians 3:16,28,29; Romans 8:17; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Hebrews 1:1,2)

God's acceptance conditions have never changed.

Faith and obedience.

 

[Biblewriter]

There's an organization known as the "Flat Earth Society". They're continually seeking individuals with the fortitude to believe myth over truth.

They'd welcome you with unreserved enthusiasm.

Jewish genetic ubiquity is proven both genetically and mathematically, and is acknowledged and applauded by the Jewish community.

Only dispensational hubris would claim to know more about Jewish genetics than the Jews know about their own genetics.

The OT Scriptural promises were to the faithful and obedient within the twelve tribes. The promises therefore negated ethnicity as a criterion. God slew unfaithful and disobedient ethnic Israelites by the thousands.

Under God's New Will and Testament, all of His promises and bequests are fulfilled by and reserved for His Son, and those faithful and obedient to His Son (Galatians 3:16,28,29; Romans 8:17; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Hebrews 1:1,2)

God's acceptance conditions have never changed.

Faith and obedience.

I make zero claim of knowing Jewish genetics. I simply point out that the claims you are making on the basis of alleged scientific "fact," is contrary to explicitly stated scripture.

As a scientist with many decades of actual experience, I can tell you that I know, I do not think, but know, that many of the accepted "facts" of science have in later years been conclusively proven to be incorrect.

The first of these, but far from the last, was the well known scientific "fact" that all human cells contained 48 chromosomes, in 24 pairs. But during my university days, while I was studying senior level genetics, (which I doubt you are even passingly acquainted with) it was suddenly discovered that this was incorrect. That all human cells only contained 46 chromosomes, in 23 pairs.

This seriously shook my faith in "science." for this was a simply fact that anyone with an ordinary microscope could easily check for himself. But because someone had published a claim about how many chromosomes there were in a human cell, everyone simply accepted this claim as known fact, and for many years no one checked it.

Since that time I have seen this same thing again and again, in matters both small and large. So I know, of an absolute certainty, that "science" is often flat out wrong.

 

[jgr]

I make zero claim of knowing Jewish genetics. I simply point out that the claims you are making on the basis of alleged scientific "fact," is contrary to explicitly stated scripture.

As a scientist with many decades of actual experience, I can tell you that I know, I do not think, but know, that many of the accepted "facts" of science have in later years been conclusively proven to be incorrect.

The first of these, but far from the last, was the well known scientific "fact" that all human cells contained 48 chromosomes, in 24 pairs. But during my university days, while I was studying senior level genetics, (which I doubt you are even passingly acquainted with) it was suddenly discovered that this was incorrect. That all human cells only contained 46 chromosomes, in 23 pairs.

This seriously shook my faith in "science." for this was a simply fact that anyone with an ordinary microscope could easily check for himself. But because someone had published a claim about how many chromosomes there were in a human cell, everyone simply accepted this claim as known fact, and for many years no one checked it.

Since that time I have seen this same thing again and again, in matters both small and large. So I know, of an absolute certainty, that "science" is often flat out wrong.

Therefore, any and all genetic and mathematical evidence for ubiquity is invalid?

 

[seventysevens]

The title of this thread shows the folly and where the heart of the threads creator is

 

[jgr]

The title of this thread shows the folly and where the heart of the threads creator is

Mine is with John.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Where's yours?

Right. Wimped out, you think.

 

[SeventyOne]

Only dispensational hubris would claim to know more about Jewish genetics than the Jews know about their own genetics.

Are these people dispensationalists?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/tracing-lost-israelite-tribes-to-africa-1.5283901

https://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/world/africa/nigeria-jews-igbo/index.html

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal

https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India

https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

 

[seventysevens]

Mine is with John.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Where's yours?

Right. Wimped out, you think.

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown

I believe Jesus - not what you say

 

[jgr]

Are these people dispensationalists?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/tracing-lost-israelite-tribes-to-africa-1.5283901

https://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/world/africa/nigeria-jews-igbo/index.html

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal

https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India

https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Dispensationalists claim that Israel is not in all of us.
Jews claim that Israel is in all of us.
Your authors agree that Israel is in all of us.
Your authors are not dispensationalists.

 

[jgr]

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown

I believe Jesus - not what you say

The message was to the Church at Philadelphia.

They weren't raptured.

But they were preserved during persecution under Nero.

Which is what Jesus had said.