connecting the dots...

[gadar perets]

Why would you run the risk of being banned from this MJ forum if you no longer believe that Yeshua is an "elohim" and instead now believe like visionary and other MJs that Yeshua is YHVH God.

There would be no risk. Since that is not the case, the risk remains.

​

Visionary's introductory post (#1) in this thread connecting the dots... put forth her belief that Yeshua was present at Mt Sinai with Moshe as the physical manifestation of God.

It puts forth her "belief" as "fact". It is not a fact. It is an assumption/belief/opinion.​

​

Do i run the risk of being banned as a non-trinitarian for my belief that the Father and Son are One in that the nature of God is His omnipresence (John 14:9) and can simultaneously serve two different functions due to the supernatural nature of a triune God.

Don't ask me. Ask them. If they are consistent in not allowing anti-trinitarian teachings in this forum, then teaching the Son is the Father should not be permitted.

Perhaps you still believe that Yeshua is an "elohim" and not God Elohim? If you still don't believe you are allowed to teach your beliefs then its possible you're beliefs are more questionable than are those posted by visionary in her initial #1 post of this thread.

Yeshua's beliefs were not received by those in authority. Neither are mine. Like Master, like servant.

​

 

[Lulav]

When we confess Yeshua, we are exercising our free will by saying we accept him and his blood sacrifice on our behalf as the “way” to the Father and as the means to enter the New Covenant and be a partaker of all that it has to offer.

I believe most everything about the New Covenant is "new" in content.

• a new and better sacrifice in the blood of Messiah Yeshua vs. animal blood (Heb 9:23)
• a new and better mediator in Messiah vs. Moses (Heb 8:6; 9:15, 24; 12:24; Gal 3:19 speaking of Moses).
• a new and better ministration in the spirit vs. the letter (2 Cor 3:6)
• a new and better High Priest in Yeshua vs. Aaron (Heb 7:24-28; 8:1-6)
• a new and better priesthood after the order of Melkizedek vs. Levi
• new and better promises based on the eternal rather than the temporal
• a new and better tabernacle made without hands (Heb 8:1-6; 9:11, 24)

This covenant is truly a new thing that YHWH has created, totally unlike the Old Covenant. It is new content applied in a new way. The only thing that is not new content is Torah which is applied in a new way.

Can you quote a single passage where Yeshua explains how this new covenant is implemented?

 

[visionary]

Hopefully we are all safe to continue to post our beliefs on this forum without retaliation.

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

That was not the purpose of this thread. It had only one objective and that is in the declaration that it was Yeshua who gave the TEN of stone to Moses. It makes it more clear if you believe that for when He walked the earth and said.... Keep my commandments....

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

On two tablets of stone...

Matthew 22:40
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

or

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 10:19
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[gadar perets]

Can you quote a single passage where Yeshua explains how this new covenant is implemented?

That depends on what "implemented" includes. If it includes how the covenant is entered and dedicated/inaugurated, then yes.

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink you all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
​

He said this in anticipation of his shed blood and death. When we receive Yeshua as Master and Savior and partake of the cup, we accept his atoning blood, the same blood by which the New Covenant is dedicated/inaugurated (Hebrews 9:11-20).

The underlined words refer to Jeremiah 31:34, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." That is implemented the moment we receive Yeshua as our Savior and atoning sacrifice.

As far as the implementation of writing the law in one's heart, Yeshua did not teach on that. I personally believe that when the Holy Spirit convicts a person to keep a particular law, that law is then written on their heart. It will not be written their against a person's will. When I accepted the Sabbath as a law for believers today and started keeping it, that is when that law was written on my heart.

 

[gadar perets]

Hopefully we are all safe to continue to post our beliefs on this forum without retaliation.

There is a big difference between "retaliation" and "correction". I will now proceed to correct you I placed a red letter after each of your verses. F means the verse refers to the Father's commandments and S refers the Son's commandments.

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: F

That was not the purpose of this thread. It had only one objective and that is in the declaration that it was Yeshua who gave the TEN of stone to Moses. It makes it more clear if you believe that for when He walked the earth and said.... Keep my commandments....

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments. S

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. S

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. S F

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. F

On two tablets of stone...

Matthew 22:40
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. F

or

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 10:19
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. F

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. F

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. F

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. F

As John 15:10 states, there is a difference between Yeshua's commandments and his Father's commandments.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
​

His Father's commandments are found in Torah. Yeshua kept them all. Yeshua's commandments are found in the NT. We are expected to keep them all as well as keeping Father YHWH's commandments, including the Ten.

 

[AbbaLove]

There would be no risk. Since that is not the case, the risk remains. It puts forth her "belief" as "fact". It is not a fact. It is an assumption/belief/opinion.

IMO, i doubt that vis would disagree with you when you say that it is her "assumption/belief/opinion" as it is with other Christians and Messianics (Jew and non-Jew).

Believe me when i say i certainly sense your frustration and disappointment that other MJs don't get on board when you imply that the Son is not YHVH / God / Elohim. When you say the "Father is not the Son" and the "Son is not the Father" you are correct in one sense and not correct in another sense (IMO) Spiritually speaking.

Even among Christians that believe in the Trinity there isn't a consensus on its interpretation. They will just say that the Trinity really can't be fully understood/explained with that diagram you posted because there are Christians and Messianics that believe the Son is the physical manifestation of the Father. The following is what you posted (#11).

"BTW, I am in no way coming against the trinity doctrine which is pictured below.

Based on this, I agree with them that the Father (YHWH) is NOT the Son (Yeshua)."​

If that is the only thing you agree with then how can you say you are in "no way" coming against the trinity doctrine? You once expressed your belief that Thomas' expression would better read as "My Lord and my god" and even then you were undecided whether Lord should even be capitalized (John 20:28). Whether you have changed your view we know not and perhaps you don't want to discuss it for possibly of ... .

You wondered if you should be insulted (#21, #26) at a member's post. This is only my opinion of what one member meant when saying "I look at your feet and wonder why your sight is restricted." Many of your posts are so RIGHT-ON that many times others post a "like" "agree" and "winner"(#64) for example post #56 is to me a fine example of "I look at your feet" with your following post #51 ...

"I believe most everything about the New Covenant is "new" in content.

• a new and better sacrifice in the blood of Messiah Yeshua vs. animal blood (Heb 9:23)
• a new and better mediator in Messiah vs. Moses (Heb 8:6; 9:15, 24; 12:24; Gal 3:19 speaking of Moses).
• a new and better ministration in the spirit vs. the letter (2 Cor 3:6)
• a new and better High Priest in Yeshua vs. Aaron (Heb 7:24-28; 8:1-6)
• a new and better priesthood after the order of Melkizedek vs. Levi
• new and better promises based on the eternal rather than the temporal
• a new and better tabernacle made without hands (Heb 8:1-6; 9:11, 24)

This covenant is truly a new thing that YHWH has created, totally unlike the Old Covenant. It is new content applied in a new way. The only thing that is not new content is Torah which is applied in a new way."​

And yet at other times ("and wonder why your sight is restricted") it seems as if you're fighting against the supernatural co-equal dual/deity and Spirituality of Yeshua being the physical manifestation of God Incarnate (Isaiah 9:6 as translated into English).

IMO (and i could be wrong) visionary started this thread "connecting the dots..." with a introductory post that was bound to get some reaction pro and con. IMO visionary has a way of wording her posts which can lead to some confusion and possibly more confrontation in this MJ forum than is spiritually healthy. It (#1 post) certainly caught Lulav's attention (#48, #50 posts). Perhaps this is just visionary's way of keeping this MJ forum lively. My apology for being too confrontational realizing that you may never see eye-to-eye in the same way that many Believers (Jew and non-Jew) interpret John 1:1 and other scriptures i posted (#58).

 

[gadar perets]

And yet at other times ("and wonder why your sight is restricted") it seems as if you're fighting against the supernatural co-equal dual/deity and Spirituality of Yeshua being the physical manifestation of God Incarnate (Isaiah 9:6 as translated into English).

My gloves are on until the day I die for I fight for what I know is true.

My apology for being too confrontational realizing that you may never see eye-to-eye in the same way that many Believers (Jew and non-Jew) interpret John 1:1 and other scriptures i posted (#58).

Apology accepted.

 

[pinacled]

Interesting thought.
The ten words are twenty by divine providence of the lashon haqodo,esh.
The first ten consonants were suposed to be given with lovingkindness.
And yet the strength of forgiveness is the double portion of ten. Being the Word, Yeshua gave 20 consonants.
5 with oil and 5 without.
This is a quarter of the wind held secret till the fullness of the sun of righteousness rises.
A level beyond sod.

As for the dots, they are the terrain of the Torah. A water only Yeshua the Holy One walks upon during a season.
In hebrew they are known as nikkud.
Vowel, consonant, and .....?

The earth is the sod level in the potters hands.
So that as a person studies to show themselves aproved that are shaped and counseled by the Ruach Haqado,esh.

Blessed be the Name.

http://www.thehebrewcafe.com/grammar/alphaconcepts.html

 

[chunkofcoal]

Hopefully we are all safe to continue to post our beliefs on this forum without retaliation.

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

That was not the purpose of this thread. It had only one objective and that is in the declaration that it was Yeshua who gave the TEN of stone to Moses. It makes it more clear if you believe that for when He walked the earth and said.... Keep my commandments....

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

On two tablets of stone...

Matthew 22:40
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

or

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 10:19
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The Ten commandments also include: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Isn't the idea that Yeshua said that contradictory?

Yeshua said, for example:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Joh 17:3)

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (Joh 20:17)

Or what Paul said here for example:
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
(Eph 1:15-17)

 

[visionary]

The Ten commandments also include: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Isn't the idea that Yeshua said that contradictory?

Yeshua said, for example:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Joh 17:3)

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (Joh 20:17)

Or what Paul said here for example:
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
(Eph 1:15-17)

It is and it isn't. When you are at your job, you expect your children to address you with the respect of the job, both in acknowledging you and your present position. It identifies in which role you are in, and which role they are addressing.

It may sound confusing, but when my children come see me at work, they must address me as DR.... anything less will cause patients within hearing distance to think they can also address me informally. When patient address their doctor informally, they also tend to treat the advice they receive from their doctor with less regard. It doesn't change mt position as a parent or as a doctor, but the role I am in .. in that event and time... has a lot to do with how I am addressed,... same with Yeshua.

Have Him sit on the great white throne, in all His glory and He will be address accordingly, or else. Have Him walk among us, and we will address accordingly... both respectful, .. both are different yet important for what is being conveyed by that position.

 

[Open Heart]

I'm not going to tell anyone else here what to believe. But I don't think it was Yeshua that gave the 10 commandments to Moshe. I think it was the Father. But these commandments were desired by the entire God-head, and this is why it makes sense for Yeshua to say, "If you love me, keep my commandments."

 

[visionary]

Steven's entire speech is all about connecting the dots... to show that Yeshua has been with them the whole way... When he said "this is he" he meant "this is Yeshua"

Acts 7:38
This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

He received the living oracles from His father to give to Moses.

 

[chunkofcoal]

It is and it isn't. When you are at your job, you expect your children to address you with the respect of the job, both in acknowledging you and your present position. It identifies in which role you are in, and which role they are addressing.

It may sound confusing, but when my children come see me at work, they must address me as DR.... anything less will cause patients within hearing distance to think they can also address me informally. When patient address their doctor informally, they also tend to treat the advice they receive from their doctor with less regard. It doesn't change mt position as a parent or as a doctor, but the role I am in .. in that event and time... has a lot to do with how I am addressed,... same with Yeshua.

Have Him sit on the great white throne, in all His glory and He will be address accordingly, or else. Have Him walk among us, and we will address accordingly... both respectful, .. both are different yet important for what is being conveyed by that position.

We will have to agree to disagree, Visionary.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Steven's entire speech is all about connecting the dots... to show that Yeshua has been with them the whole way... When he said "this is he" he meant "this is Yeshua"

Acts 7:38
This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

He received the living oracles from His father to give to Moses.

I read that differently. The "he" is Moses; and the angel spoke to him in the mount and also with the fathers.

 

[visionary]

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; HIM shall ye hear. 38 This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:......<snip>.....

54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

 

[AbbaLove]

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; HIM shall ye hear. 38 This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:......<snip>.....

Verses 37 and 38 must be the New-KJB and New-AKJV (as edited by vis). However, Vis forgot to capitalize him assuming she considers him to be Yeshua/Jesus in verse 38. The NKJV which capitalizes He and Him when referring to Jesus doesn't capitalize and embolden HIM in verse 37 or He in verse 38.

Wouldn't have expected vis to take it upon herself to edit two existing translations (KJB and AKJV) to change its implied meaning from that of Moses to that of Yeshua/Jesus.

This is the actual translation (vs. 37) of the KJB before it was altered by vis ... "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear." (King James Bible) ... before it was edited by vis.
This is the actual translation (vs. 38) of the AKJV before it was altered by vis ... "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give to us:" (American King James Version) ... before it was edited by vis.

I read that differently. The "he" is Moses; and the angel spoke to him in the mount and also with the fathers.

Hoping vis will allow me the same latitude she gave herself when altering verse 38 of the AKJV ... "This is Moses, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:" (AJKV)

 

[visionary]

​

Verses 37 and 38 must be the New-KJB and New-AKJV (as edited by vis). However, Vis forgot to capitalize him assuming she considers him to be Yeshua/Jesus in verse 38. The NKJV which capitalizes He and Him when referring to Jesus doesn't capitalize and embolden HIM in verse 37 or He in verse 38.

Wouldn't have expected vis to take it upon herself to edit two existing translations (KJB and AKJV) to change its implied meaning from that of Moses to that of Yeshua/Jesus.

This is the actual translation (vs. 37) of the KJB before it was altered by vis ... "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear." (King James Bible) ... before it was edited by vis.
This is the actual translation (vs. 38) of the AKJV before it was altered by vis ... "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give to us:" (American King James Version) ... before it was edited by vis.

​

Hoping vis will allow me the same latitude she gave herself when altering verse 38 of the AKJV ... "This is Moses, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:" (AJKV)

I took the uncapitalized "him" you put in red as Moses.

This is He [Yeshua] that was in the church in the wilderness, with the angel, which [Yeshua] spoke to him [Moses] in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who [Yeshua] received the lively oracles to give to us.

Yeshua was chosen before the foundation of the world to be its savior (I Peter 1:20).

I Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[visionary]

The Son [Yeshua] given the titles Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6). I often think we forget that when we argue that it was the Father on Mount Sinai and not the Son.

 

[visionary]

Hebrews 1:1-3 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

The idea that Yeshua was not involved from the beginning, taking a leading role in our salvation from the giving of the law to the salvation via His life for us to the judgment of the law upon the earth, is like saying that He will be given the kingdom without involvement.

 

[visionary]

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.

Yeshua would not have said that if Moses didn't write about Him. So tell me, how would Moses write about someone he never met?