Justification by Faith Defended!

[amariselle]

We are not under the law. We are under grace.

I repeat that obedience is necessary to remain in God's grace.

When did I ever say that our obedience must be perfect? I've always said that we are to do our best. So now are YOU misrepresenting ME?

Your last two questions are answering my two questions?
Why are you answering them with questions?
Could you post an answer instead?

Please show from Scripture that "doing our best" will save us.

This has been one of the main points we have continually disagreed on. You believe that our imperfect obedience can somehow keep us saved, when it could not get us saved.

As I said before, it is best for both of us that we just move on as we do not agree regarding salvation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Actually that is Grace. For it to be any other way it is no longer Grace.

Without the effectual call of God changing our hearts of stone to hearts of flesh, we cannot receive the message we are damned destitute sinners in need of God's gift of salvation in the Blood of Christ leading us to repentance. If this was a mental exercise we would never come to Him.

Many are called, but few are chosen.

On what basis are they chosen?

 

[amariselle]

And there's the rub. How horrible it must be for folks not trust in our Lord and Savior and instead try to earn their own salvation...as if Calvary meant nothing.

And then to be accused of telling others that they shouldn't obey Christ, simply because we "rest" in His finished and all sufficient work, completely. The cross does indeed cause offense.

 

[zoidar]

And there's the rub. How horrible it must be for folks not trust in our Lord and Savior and instead try to earn their own salvation...as if Calvary meant nothing.

Yes, that is of course terrible!

 

[Phil 1:21]

We are not under the law. We are under grace.

I repeat that obedience is necessary to remain in God's grace.

When did I ever say that our obedience must be perfect? I've always said that we are to do our best.

Obedience is necessary to remain in God's grace...but all we have to do is do our best? I trust you see the contradiction here (hopefully). Regardless...could you please provide scriptural support for your "do our best" theory of salvation?

 

[redleghunter]

Sorry, there is not a single example of regeneration preceding faith anywhere in Holy Writ. You have lifted this passage from Ezekiel completely out of context.

Ezekiel is within context as YHWH is describing the New Covenant. It's what Jesus was attempting to teach Nicodemus in John 3.

Even on the day of Pentecost, souls were regenerated before getting in the water to be baptized.

Acts 2: NASB
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 42They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Hearts were pierced before they repented. God took out the heart of stone and gave them a heart of flesh.

Acts 10 the Holy Spirit falls on the Gentiles before water baptism.

John 3:3 shows we cannot even 'see' the kingdom of God without being born again.

God is saying that His will be done in spite of Israel's consistent rebellion.

Which is the New Covenant. Which proves my point.

He says right before this that He is not doing any of this for their sake. It is for the sake of seeing His plan through to completion.

Again the new covenant and we confirm that here:

Jeremiah 31: NASB
31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

[mark kennedy]

Maybe you could explain what original sin is?
If it wasn't thought of until the 400's, how could it have existed before? I don't know any church father that spoke to it.
Perhaps you could enlighten us...?

That's bot true, the account of Adam and Eve is in Genesis 3 and confirmed in Romans 5. It's not an invention but essential doctrine, not disputed in Christian theology, in any of our traditions I'm aware of. The contention that this emerged sometime in the fifth century is frankly, indefensible. Paul speaks of it and Moses early in Genesis describes it in no uncertain terms. The premise of the argument lacks any real merit, original sin is essential doctrine.

 

[MDC]

Many are called, but few are chosen.

On what basis are they chosen?

Ephesians 1:5.

 

[redleghunter]

So verses 19-22 sound to you like they weren't saved because they were false teachers?

The entire chapter is about false teachers, yes correct.

Do you not care to see the part where it says that they left the entanglement of the world due to the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? So they were lost and then saved.

Does not say that. It shows they came to the knowledge of Christ but instead decided to stick with the world their own vomit.

Then they returned AGAIN to the world and their situation was worse than before. So now they were lost again.

They were always lost. They rejected the gospel. Not everyone who hears the gospel is born again. Just go over to the atheist threads here and see what I mean.

Please explain why it matters WHO these verses are speaking about instead of understanding that whoever it is, they were lost, saved and then lost again.

It matters because it's about false teachers and that their situation is even worse when they have the knowledge of Christ.

 

[mark kennedy]

Ezekiel is within context as YHWH is describing the New Covenant. It's what Jesus was attempting to teach Nicodemus in John 3.

Even on the day of Pentecost, souls were regenerated before getting in the water to be baptized.

Acts 2: NASB
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 42They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Hearts were pierced before they repented. God took out the heart of stone and gave them a heart of flesh.

Acts 10 the Holy Spirit falls on the Gentiles before water baptism.

John 3:3 shows we cannot even 'see' the kingdom of God without being born again.


Which is the New Covenant. Which proves my point.


Again the new covenant and we confirm that here:

Jeremiah 31: NASB
31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Hey Red, could you help me out here. I know your well read on the ECFs, I can't track the quotes down right now. Are you familar with what they said about original sin? I'm doing this with a cell phone right now.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Many are called, but few are chosen.

On what basis are they chosen?

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Searching for free will as the basis for election but having trouble finding Scripture to support this notion, maybe you can help?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Please show from Scripture that "doing our best" will save us.

This has been one of the main points we have continually disagreed on. You believe that our imperfect obedience can somehow keep us saved, when it could not get us saved.

As I said before, it is best for both of us that we just move on as we do not agree regarding salvation.

Why move on?
There are persons reading along that might be interested.
This thread is about justification by faith.

I asked if Jesus really thought the adulteress woman would never sin again when He told her to "sin no more".

I asked if Jesus really thought we could be perfect like the Father in heaven is perfect.

You replied something about Him speaking to Jews. What does this mean? Aren't the words of Jesus for everyone? Are they not for us?

Of course they are. We're TO DO OUR BEST. We cannot be perfect. We are saved by faith and once we're saved God requires us to follow His commandments. ONLY the saved are to follow God's commandments. It does no good for the unsaved to follow them --- they're lost anyway.

If one wants to get to heaven, he MUST follow God's laws, the moral code, and the work Jesus left us with to do.

1 John 2:17
Romans 2:7
Romans 2:10
James 2:17
1 Peter 1:16-17
Titus 2:14
John 5:28-29
John 3:36
Mathew 16:24-25
Luke 6:46, 49

and so many more verses that tell us we are to do good deeds and obey.

 

[zoidar]

Ephesians 1:5.

How about John 3:16 ?

 

[MDC]

Because the ability to live by the Spirit is a gift given us through his work on the cross.

Living by Gods Spirit is the result of being saved. But that doesn’t answer how can you say you have faith in Christ when you don’t believe Christ’s and His merits ALONE justify, APART FROM YOUR WORKS. Can you say Christ’s and His merits ALONE justify?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Searching for free will as the basis for election but having trouble finding Scripture to support this notion, maybe you can help?

How does the above answer my question?

 

[112358]

That would be @ladodgers6 . He really doesn't answer my posts to him. He just likes to make statements, so maybe you shouldn't wait on him?

If he reads this, he MIGHT want to answer...
Why Did Jesus Speak in Parables?

The answer is twofold.
1) So that those who continually denied His miraculous power and claim that He was in fact who He said He was, would hear but not understand, thus fulfilling several prophecies about those people. Later in His ministry He used them to convict those same people who were moving closer and closer to killing Him. "They understood that He was speaking about them." Matthew 21
2) So that those who accepted His claim could understand the meaning of the things He taught which were difficult for them to grasp. Even the disciples still thought He was going to establish a physical kingdom right up (at least) to His ascension. He used common, easily related, everyday examples to illustrate less obvious spiritual realities, like the fact that the coming kingdom was in fact spiritual, not physical. How many times did He say "The kingdom of Heaven is like..."

 

[MDC]

I don't like to put it: Faith + works. I rather like to put it: Faith = believe in + obedience.

There’s no faith in the gospel when you add men’s works to the equation

 

[GodsGrace101]

Ephesians 1:5.

How does this answer my question??

Many are called, but few are chosen.

How are the few chosen?
And why?

 

[Phil 1:21]

Why move on?
There are persons reading along that might be interested.
This thread is about justification by faith.

I asked if Jesus really thought the adulteress woman would never sin again when He told her to "sin no more".

I asked if Jesus really thought we could be perfect like the Father in heaven is perfect.

You replied something about Him speaking to Jews. What does this mean? Aren't the words of Jesus for everyone? Are they not for us?

Of course they are. We're TO DO OUR BEST. We cannot be perfect. We are saved by faith and once we're saved God requires us to follow His commandments. ONLY the saved are to follow God's commandments. It does no good for the unsaved to follow them --- they're lost anyway.

If one wants to get to heaven, he MUST follow God's laws, the moral code, and the work Jesus left us with to do.

1 John 2:17
Romans 2:7
Romans 2:10
James 2:17
1 Peter 1:16-17
Titus 2:14
John 5:28-29
John 3:36
Mathew 16:24-25
Luke 6:46, 49

and so many more verses that tell us we are to do good deeds and obey.

Two observations:

1. Your entire premise of "do our best" to maintain salvation is based on eisgesis. Nowhere does the scripture say that; it's what you've added to scripture.

2. It doesn't appear you understand the difference between old covenant and new covenant.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Obedience is necessary to remain in God's grace...but all we have to do is do our best? I trust you see the contradiction here (hopefully). Regardless...could you please provide scriptural support for your "do our best" theory of salvation?

As soon as you show me a proof text that states we are not to obey God. AFTER salvation.

As to my do our best theory....
So are you saying you never sin?
Are you saying you're perfect?