The "Dead in Christ" and what does it mean?

[Valetic]

This is a question I have concerning scriptures that talk about the "Dead in Christ." Before I get to the question let me tell you why I am asking.

At work, a colleague of mine asked where we go when we die. I told him plainly, "We go back to Heaven." He began to talk about some denominational teacher talking about How when we die we go to the grave and become unconscious until the second coming in Revelation where the dead in Christ are raised up. I was raised JW and this is the same thing they taught. I told my colleague this and also quoted 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 which says, 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

The question I have is this: What is the state of being for the dead in Christ?

Further questions: Are the dead in Christ actually just people who were true Christians living and died so now they are referred to as "dead in Christ" as in they died believing? Did these people go to Heaven or are they unconscious and awaiting Christ from the grave?

My interpretation of the scriptures: When the dead in Christ are raised, I am assuming they will be in their resurrection bodies like Jesus had before his ascension. Also we are going to Heaven when we are people born of God. The dead in Christ are those who died who were born of God.

Even further, What then of the "judgement seat of Christ?" Are we to face this when we die or are we to face it at the resurrection?

What's your interpretation?

 

[TuxAme]

The dead in Christ- those who are saved- are given a particular judgement at the time of their death, and their soul abides in heaven until the resurrection of the dead, when their soul will be reunited with their body. After the general judgement (the one everyone knows about), they will return to heaven, body and soul.

The purpose or the general judgement won't be to re-evaluate a soul's standing with God. Their judgement won't change, so they won't be judged a second time. You are judged once- for most of us, this will be when we die. For some, it will be at the general judgement, because they will still be living at the time.

 

[Episaw]

This is a question I have concerning scriptures that talk about the "Dead in Christ." Before I get to the question let me tell you why I am asking.

At work, a colleague of mine asked where we go when we die. I told him plainly, "We go back to Heaven." He began to talk about some denominational teacher talking about How when we die we go to the grave and become unconscious until the second coming in Revelation where the dead in Christ are raised up. I was raised JW and this is the same thing they taught. I told my colleague this and also quoted 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 which says, 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

The question I have is this: What is the state of being for the dead in Christ?

Further questions: Are the dead in Christ actually just people who were true Christians living and died so now they are referred to as "dead in Christ" as in they died believing? Did these people go to Heaven or are they unconscious and awaiting Christ from the grave?

My interpretation of the scriptures: When the dead in Christ are raised, I am assuming they will be in their resurrection bodies like Jesus had before his ascension. Also we are going to Heaven when we are people born of God. The dead in Christ are those who died who were born of God.

Even further, What then of the "judgement seat of Christ?" Are we to face this when we die or are we to face it at the resurrection?

What's your interpretation?

Doesn't it mean all those that are in dead churches? I hope so as I attend dead churches in the hope that I shall rise first.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Historic Christian teaching is that the intermediate state (that is, the interim between death and resurrection), those who belong to Christ will dwell with Him experiencing a foretaste of the glory that is to come. St. Paul speaks of being absent from the body and present with the Lord in 2 Corinthians, and the Apocalypse describes imagery depicting the martyrs as standing before God's throne in heaven.

We often describe this as "going to heaven" as shorthand. What this means in any kind of detail is unknown to us. But we know that we can be confident that, between death and resurrection, we will be with the Lord, and that at the resurrection we shall be raised up, glorified, and share in the everlasting life in the Age to Come, world without end.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[St_Worm2]

At work, a colleague of mine asked where we go when we die. I told him plainly, "We go back to Heaven." He began to talk about some denominational teacher talking about How when we die we go to the grave and become unconscious until the second coming in Revelation where the dead in Christ are raised up. I was raised JW and this is the same thing they taught.

That is called the sleep of the soul, and every church/denomination within Christendom (Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox, save one I believe, the SDA) hold soul sleep to be an heretical teaching.

I told my colleague this and also quoted 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 which says, 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

The question I have is this: What is the state of being for the dead in Christ?

I think you just answered it with the passage you posited above for us from 2 Corinthians While the bodies of those who die in Christ lie interred in the ground, their souls are awake at home in the presence of the Lord.

Further questions: Are the dead in Christ actually just people who were true Christians living and died so now they are referred to as "dead in Christ" as in they died believing? Did these people go to Heaven or are they unconscious and awaiting Christ from the grave?

1. Yes, the dead in Christ are made up of true Christians who have died.
2. They go to Heaven while their bodies remain in the grave.

Yours and His.
David

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

This is a question I have concerning scriptures that talk about the "Dead in Christ." Before I get to the question let me tell you why I am asking.

At work, a colleague of mine asked where we go when we die. I told him plainly, "We go back to Heaven." He began to talk about some denominational teacher talking about How when we die we go to the grave and become unconscious until the second coming in Revelation where the dead in Christ are raised up. I was raised JW and this is the same thing they taught. I told my colleague this and also quoted 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 which says, 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

The question I have is this: What is the state of being for the dead in Christ?

Further questions: Are the dead in Christ actually just people who were true Christians living and died so now they are referred to as "dead in Christ" as in they died believing? Did these people go to Heaven or are they unconscious and awaiting Christ from the grave?

My interpretation of the scriptures: When the dead in Christ are raised, I am assuming they will be in their resurrection bodies like Jesus had before his ascension. Also we are going to Heaven when we are people born of God. The dead in Christ are those who died who were born of God.

Even further, What then of the "judgement seat of Christ?" Are we to face this when we die or are we to face it at the resurrection?

What's your interpretation?

Consider the souls said to be "under the altar" . . .

Rev 6:9-10 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
NASU

Clearly this is before the resurrection and these souls are aware of things.

 

[The Ark Hive Mind]

This is a question I have concerning scriptures that talk about the "Dead in Christ." Before I get to the question let me tell you why I am asking.

At work, a colleague of mine asked where we go when we die. I told him plainly, "We go back to Heaven."

That would be the incorrect answer, since you cannot 'go back' to a place you have never been to or originated from in the first place. Here is what Jesus said:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Mat_9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Mar_5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luk_8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

Joh_11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.​

Here is what God said:

Gen_3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

Here is what Abraham said:

Gen_18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:​

Here is what Job said:

Job_7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job_10:9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

Job_17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Job_20:11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.

Job_21:26 They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.

Job_40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.​

The Psalmist said:

Psa_30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Psa_103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Psa_104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.​

Solomon said:

Ecc_3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

Isaiah said:

Isa 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.​

In Daniel it is said:

Dan_12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Peter said:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
​

Luke [physician/historian] records:

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
​

Paul said:

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

[Paul Agrees with Peter in Acts 2, which agrees with the OT scripture]

1 Cor. 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Thes. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
​

Holy Ghost in Revelation [tying to Dan. 12:2,12] says:

Rev. 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.​

 

[The Ark Hive Mind]

He began to talk about some denominational teacher talking about How when we die we go to the grave and become unconscious until the second coming in Revelation where the dead in Christ are raised up.

Your friend is correct as far as that goes. See also

1 Ki. 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.​

"slept with his fathers" [1 Ki. 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Ki. 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Ch. 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20]

[sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

[knowing nothing] Genesis 27:4, 45:28; Ruth 1:17; Job 3:17-19, 7:8-10, 14:21, 21:32; 2 Kings 22:20; 2 Chronicles 34:28; Psalms 6:5, 28:1, 31:17, 88:4,10,11, 115:17, 143:7, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6,10; Isaiah 14:11, 38:18; [reserved] 2 Peter 2:9; [He goes to prepare a place, so that when He comes again, 2nd Advent, He will raise us and receive us] John 14:2-3

[grave/s, sepulchre/s, tomb/s, pit/s, hell [ie Hb: sheol; Gr: hades; grave]] Genesis 23:6, 35:20, 37:35, 44:29,31, 50:5; Exodus 14:11; Numbers 16:30, 19:16,18; Deuteronomy 34:6; Judges 8:32, 1 Samuel 2:6, 10:2; 2 Samuel 3:32, 4:10, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14, 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9, 13:22,30,31, 14:13; 2 Kings 9:28, 13:21, 21:26, 22:20, 23:6,16,17,30; 2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24; Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16; Job 3:17-19,22, 5:26, 7:8-10, 10:19, 11:8, 14:12-14,21, 17:1,13,16, 21:13,23-32, 24:19, 26:6, 30:24, 33:22; Psalms 5:9, 6:5, 18:5, 28:1, 30:3, 31:17, 35:7, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3,4,5-12, 89:48, 94:13, 115:17, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7, 143:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16; Ecclesiastes 6:6, 9:10; Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15,19, 22:16, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 53:9, 57:9, 65:4; Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 26:23, 20:17; Ezekiel 26:20, 31:15-17, 32:18,21-27, 37:12,13, 39:11; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2 [<- figurative, typological]; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Matthew 8:8, 11:23, 23:27,29, 27:52,53,60,61,64,66, 28:8; Mark 5:2,3,5, 6:29, 15:46, 16:2,3,5,8; Luke 8:27, 10:15, 11:47,48, 23:53,55, 24:1,2,9,12,22,24; John 5:28, 11:31,38, 12:17, 19:41,42, 20:1-4,6,8,11; Acts 2:29,34, 7:16, 13:29,36; Romans 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18, 11:9, 20:13,14

[Wikipedia; "Annihilationism"] - Annihilationism - Wikipedia
[Wikipedia; "Conditional Immortality"] - Christian conditionalism - Wikipedia
[Wikipedia; "Soul Death"] - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia
[Wikipedia; "Christian Mortalism"] - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia
​

I was raised JW and this is the same thing they taught.

Jehovah's Witnesses have a partial truth in this area, though not completely, and many grievous errors, therefore do not return to them as a people. They got it from the Advent movement, which got it from the Reformation, which got it from those gone before, unto the NT, unto the OT, unto Genesis. Yet, even in this, the JW still have misunderstanding in Jesus' resurrection, and their ideology on the 144,400 and a few other places on matters of resurrection. The teaching was around before them, in the Protestant reformation, as Luther taught, and so on:
William Tyndale, John Frith, George Wishart, John Milton, Baptists, among others and Martin Luther of the Reformation itself taught that the dead are asleep, knowing nothing, knowing full well that the Scripture taught it and used it against the papacy and spiritualism:
The Soul and Spirit: Greek and Hebrew Word Studies
Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

Heresy

I told my colleague this and also quoted 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 which says, 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

A good passage, but misunderstood by many. The connection of being with the Lord is in the matter of the timing. Connect 2 Cor. 5:6-8 with Paul's statement in 1 Thes. 4:13-18:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[that is God will bring the resurrected/translated back with Jesus to Heaven]​

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

Paul told us the timing of when we are to be with the Lord. In the resurrection/translation. Not before, and this matches what Jesus said in John 14:1-4.

The question I have is this: What is the state of being for the dead in Christ?

Jesus, Paul, Peter, and so many others said, from the beginning: "sleep" in the "dust" of the earth until the respective resurrections.

Further questions: Are the dead in Christ actually just people who were true Christians living and died so now they are referred to as "dead in Christ" as in they died believing?

Yes.

Did these people go to Heaven or are they unconscious and awaiting Christ from the grave?

Grave/dust. We all go to Heaven together, as Paul, Job, and so many others say, as Jesus said, He has to return for us all. [Jesus, Enoch, Moses, Elijah and the firstfruits are the typological and only exceptions].

My interpretation of the scriptures

Consider Gen. 40:8; 2 Pet. 1:20.

When the dead in Christ are raised, I am assuming they will be in their resurrection bodies like Jesus had before his ascension.

No need to assume, see Phi. 3:21; Matt 22:30; Mar. 12:25 and see also the mount of transfiguration with Moses and Elijah glorified, Matt 17; Mar. 9; Luk 9 [9:31 specifically] and 2 Pet. 1:16-18.

Also we are going to Heaven when we are people born of God. The dead in Christ are those who died who were born of God.

The "dead in Christ" is anyone who dies in Christ Jesus even today and rests in the grave until the resurrections.

Even further, What then of the "judgement seat of Christ?" Are we to face this when we die or are we to face it at the resurrection?

Read Rev. 14:6-12. For the believer, Judgment takes place before Jesus returns. For at His return is reward is with Him, see Rev. 22:12.

What's your interpretation?

Again, see Gen. 40:8; 2 Pet. 1:20 and see also Isa. 28:10.

 

[Valetic]

Consider the souls said to be "under the altar" . . .

Rev 6:9-10 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
NASU

Clearly this is before the resurrection and these souls are aware of things.

HA

 

[The Ark Hive Mind]

Consider the souls said to be "under the altar" . . .

Let us now consider this Prophetic and Symbolic/Signified - Rev. 1:1, Passage in its proper context, which is the 7 Seals, "And when he had opened the fifth seal ...", Rev. 6:9

Should we have to go over the first four "Seals" to understand they are given in Symbols, that we might understand earthly events?

The Fifth Seal is no different, for it refers to events on Earth. How do we know? The context. The texts reads that these "souls" [persons] were "under the Altar" - Rev. 6:9.

Question. According to the Scriptures, which Altar is this, the one in the Courtyard, or the Holy Place?

It is the one in the Courtyard [a symbol of earth]. How do we know? Context. For the blood of the first group of Martyrs mentioned in it, was poured out at the base of that altar, just as it is given us:

Lev. 4:18 And he shall put [some] of the blood upon the horns of the altar which [is] before the LORD, that [is] in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which [is at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Lev. 4:30 "And the priest shall ... shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar."

Lev. 4:34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:

Lev. 5:9 And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it [is] a sin offering.

Lev. 8:15 And he slew [it]; and Moses took the blood, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it.

Lev 9:9 And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar:​

That Altar of Burnt Offering, in which the Blood was poured out at the base, upon the earth, was in the Courtyard, which represents the Earth, where Christ Jesus died. See Exo. 40:29, etc.

The “altar” of burnt offering/sacrifice/slaughter was made of brass, called the “brasen” altar. This was the “altar” of the courtyard, the “altar” of the earth. Even the Cross. See Exo. 27:1-8, 38:30, 39:39. The golden altar of incense is different and mentioned in Rev. 9:13-15 and it is in Heaven.

Therefore, the symbolism is pointing to the reality of Earthly events, not Heavenly ones.

The Souls under The Altar cannot be understood, unless the structure, timing, language, types and symbols of the Scriptures be understood. The Altar deals with the portion of the Sanctuary and the service of the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. The timing of the events listed in the 5th seal, are two fold, namely there are two groups mentioned. One group that has already died/martyred in the past, during the 1,260, and one group yet future to be so, coming soon. The second group is picked up in Rev. 20:4, as those "beheaded", and this prophecy event has yet to occur. The language itself also needs to be carefully considered, for there are similar passages in scripture.

The 5th Church, 5th Seal and 5th Trumpets are unique in their scopeas they are connectors from the transition of the 4th and 6th of those things.

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

See also Rev. 6:10-11 for context between the two verses.

In the first text we see that there were those "slain for":

[A1] "the word of God"
[B1] "the testimony [G3141] which they held"​

In the second text we see that there will be those "beheaded for":

[B2] "the witness ["testimony" G3141] of Jesus"
[A2] "the word of God"​

In Rev. 6:

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev. 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.​

We are dealing with symbols, as we have been in the previous 4 seals Rev. 6:1-8. We are not looking at literal people stuck under a giant sanctuary fixture somewhere.

We see these "crying" out, we must understand this, that their martyred selves, by their shed blood upon the earth cries out for Justice, even as Abel's was spilled to the ground:

Gen. 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Heb. 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Matt. 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Luk. 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.​

Other things also "cry out" in scripture, but are not actually alive:

Hab. 2:11 For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it.

Luk. 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.​

Other things also "cry out":

Psa. 84:2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.​

Now notice that these are dead, and that they, by their shed blood, in which was the Life - Jhn. 15:13, see also Gen. 9:4; Lev. 17:11,14; Deut. 12:23;, etc, are symbolically crying out for justice, even as Abels Blood shed from the foundation of the world, and they should "rest" [sleep of death in the grave] a little season longer "until" something was to happen... and that something is the slaying of the rest of the martyrs in the end, and will be vindicated in the Resurrection.

Rest/Sleep:

[sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40​

Do they have crowns yet according to the Symbolism and Prophecy? No.

Notice also the question, "How long..." must they wait so? and a simple search will yield many answers in the OT/NT about this:

Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.​

When will God avenge them? Not until the other group of Martyrs comes, and them God will avenge both groups together, in the 7 last plagues -

Rev. 6:11 "...rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Rev. 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.​

After those things, comes Jesus, and the Resurrection to awaken the saints from the dust of the earth where they were asleep and waiting, knowing nothing. See 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

 

[Noah Ark]

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[frater_domus]

I find Romans 6 very interesting with regards to the topic of death with Christ. There, Pauls talks about being dead to sin, as in our old selves, who were slaves to the flesh, died with Christ on the cross and in his likeness, we are resurrected (or born again) as the "new man", so to speak.
Honestly, one of my favourite parts of the NT, although I still do not fully understand every detail of it.

 

[sdowney717]

If we are 'dead in the Lord' this is mostly the concept of having physically died, but we being new creatures in christ, we go to be with Christ at our deaths since we belong to Him, where else would we go.
Paul clearly says for us to be confident and well pleased to be absent from this body of death which we inhabit and to be present with Christ where Christ is in His glorified body. The heavenly home prepared for us is like a building from God, eternal in the heavens. Some people think we are dead and gone after our physical death with no life until the resurrection, but obviously their doctrines are dead wrong.

2 Corinthians 5 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly [a]house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as [c]a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

[sdowney717]

WHO APPEARED at the transfiguration and talked with Christ?
Moses and Elijah, who were but men who physically died.

They were conscious enough to do some talking. Not woozy from drinking or sound asleep walking.

Matthew 17 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Transfigured on the Mount
17 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, [a]let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

Scriptures like this exist to prove sound doctrines and disprove unsound doctrines like unconscious soul sleep or complete death till the resurrection..

 

[Valetic]

WHO APPEARED at the transfiguration and talked with Christ?
Moses and Elijah, who were but men who physically died.

They were conscious enough to do some talking. Not woozy from drinking or sound asleep walking.

Matthew 17 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Transfigured on the Mount
17 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, [a]let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

Scriptures like this exist to prove sound doctrines and disprove unsound doctrines like unconscious soul sleep or complete death till the resurrection..

Now that's more like it!

 

[John 1720]

That would be the incorrect answer, since you cannot 'go back' to a place you have never been to or originated from in the first place. Here is what Jesus said:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Mat_9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Mar_5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luk_8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

Joh_11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.​

Here is what God said:

Gen_3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

Here is what Abraham said:

Gen_18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:​

Here is what Job said:

Job_7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job_10:9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

Job_17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Job_20:11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.

Job_21:26 They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.

Job_40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.​

The Psalmist said:

Psa_30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Psa_103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Psa_104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.​

Solomon said:

Ecc_3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

Isaiah said:

Isa 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.​

In Daniel it is said:

Dan_12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Peter said:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
​

Luke [physician/historian] records:

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
​

Paul said:

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

[Paul Agrees with Peter in Acts 2, which agrees with the OT scripture]

1 Cor. 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Thes. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
​

Holy Ghost in Revelation [tying to Dan. 12:2,12] says:

Rev. 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.​

You cannot 'go back' to a place you have never been to or originated from in the first place. - - Ark hive

What is your take on this passages then?

• Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: just as He chose us in Him "before the foundation of the world", that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
  • Context of "Before the foundation of the world"
    

    • And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. - John 17:5
    • "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. - John 17:24

    ​
• 2Timothy 1:8-11Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
• 2Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Let us now consider this Prophetic and Symbolic/Signified - Rev. 1:1, Passage in its proper context, which is the 7 Seals, "And when he had opened the fifth seal ...", Rev. 6:9

Should we have to go over the first four "Seals" to understand they are given in Symbols, that we might understand earthly events?

The Fifth Seal is no different, for it refers to events on Earth. How do we know? The context. The texts reads that these "souls" [persons] were "under the Altar" - Rev. 6:9.

Question. According to the Scriptures, which Altar is this, the one in the Courtyard, or the Holy Place?

It is the one in the Courtyard [a symbol of earth]. How do we know? Context. For the blood of the first group of Martyrs mentioned in it, was poured out at the base of that altar, just as it is given us:

Lev. 4:18 And he shall put [some] of the blood upon the horns of the altar which [is] before the LORD, that [is] in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which [is at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Lev. 4:30 "And the priest shall ... shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar."

Lev. 4:34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:

Lev. 5:9 And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it [is] a sin offering.

Lev. 8:15 And he slew [it]; and Moses took the blood, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it.

Lev 9:9 And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar:​

That Altar of Burnt Offering, in which the Blood was poured out at the base, upon the earth, was in the Courtyard, which represents the Earth, where Christ Jesus died. See Exo. 40:29, etc.

The “altar” of burnt offering/sacrifice/slaughter was made of brass, called the “brasen” altar. This was the “altar” of the courtyard, the “altar” of the earth. Even the Cross. See Exo. 27:1-8, 38:30, 39:39. The golden altar of incense is different and mentioned in Rev. 9:13-15 and it is in Heaven.

Therefore, the symbolism is pointing to the reality of Earthly events, not Heavenly ones.

The Souls under The Altar cannot be understood, unless the structure, timing, language, types and symbols of the Scriptures be understood. The Altar deals with the portion of the Sanctuary and the service of the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. The timing of the events listed in the 5th seal, are two fold, namely there are two groups mentioned. One group that has already died/martyred in the past, during the 1,260, and one group yet future to be so, coming soon. The second group is picked up in Rev. 20:4, as those "beheaded", and this prophecy event has yet to occur. The language itself also needs to be carefully considered, for there are similar passages in scripture.

The 5th Church, 5th Seal and 5th Trumpets are unique in their scopeas they are connectors from the transition of the 4th and 6th of those things.

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

See also Rev. 6:10-11 for context between the two verses.

In the first text we see that there were those "slain for":

[A1] "the word of God"
[B1] "the testimony [G3141] which they held"​

In the second text we see that there will be those "beheaded for":

[B2] "the witness ["testimony" G3141] of Jesus"
[A2] "the word of God"​

In Rev. 6:

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev. 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.​

We are dealing with symbols, as we have been in the previous 4 seals Rev. 6:1-8. We are not looking at literal people stuck under a giant sanctuary fixture somewhere.

We see these "crying" out, we must understand this, that their martyred selves, by their shed blood upon the earth cries out for Justice, even as Abel's was spilled to the ground:

Gen. 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Heb. 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Matt. 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Luk. 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.​

Other things also "cry out" in scripture, but are not actually alive:

Hab. 2:11 For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it.

Luk. 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.​

Other things also "cry out":

Psa. 84:2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.​

Now notice that these are dead, and that they, by their shed blood, in which was the Life - Jhn. 15:13, see also Gen. 9:4; Lev. 17:11,14; Deut. 12:23;, etc, are symbolically crying out for justice, even as Abels Blood shed from the foundation of the world, and they should "rest" [sleep of death in the grave] a little season longer "until" something was to happen... and that something is the slaying of the rest of the martyrs in the end, and will be vindicated in the Resurrection.

Rest/Sleep:

[sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40​

Do they have crowns yet according to the Symbolism and Prophecy? No.

Notice also the question, "How long..." must they wait so? and a simple search will yield many answers in the OT/NT about this:

Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.​

When will God avenge them? Not until the other group of Martyrs comes, and them God will avenge both groups together, in the 7 last plagues -

Rev. 6:11 "...rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Rev. 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.​

After those things, comes Jesus, and the Resurrection to awaken the saints from the dust of the earth where they were asleep and waiting, knowing nothing. See 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Naah. They are in heaven right now able to see us.

Heb 12:1
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
NASU

Souls in an unconscious state cannot be witnesses.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

. . . The “altar” of burnt offering/sacrifice/slaughter was made of brass, called the “brasen” altar. This was the “altar” of the courtyard, the “altar” of the earth. Even the Cross. See Exo. 27:1-8, 38:30, 39:39. The golden altar of incense is different and mentioned in Rev. 9:13-15 and it is in Heaven.

Therefore, the symbolism is pointing to the reality of Earthly events, not Heavenly ones. . . .

Sheer speculation.

 

[Valetic]

Also found this one, the scripture is immediately after Jesus's death.

Mathew 27:52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

What did they just go back to sleep after they appeared to these people? I don't think so!

 

[The Ark Hive Mind]

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:2 is a great text to demonstrate the location and condition of those "dead in Christ". It speaks of "them that sleep", and "in the dust of the earth", and that just before Jesus' return, in this instance, there is a unique resurrection of righteous and unrighteous together, and so "some shall awake" coming out of their 'beds' in the grave. This text links to Rev. 14:13, as well as Rev. 1:7, and Matt. 26:64; Mar. 14:62 and Dan. 12:12.