GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

[bugkiller]

Indeed the parables are explained in other parts of scripture as to what they are referring to.

Thanks for sharing.

Did you change your mind?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

You are welcome to say whatever you wish but the scriptures in Hebrews 9:23-25 do not teach that the day of atonement has started.

I have also never denied that Hebrews discusses the day of atonement but not in the context and interpretation you have provided.

That is why the context and topic of conversation was post for Hebrews 9 in post # 489 which discusses all of these scriptures in a bit more detail.

What I do not understand is how your post makes you correct. You can not win by discussion so you try to win by frustrating another. That dose not mean you are correct.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

We see in 1847 James White still not holding to an IJ, noting it is not in fact necessary to give the sentence in advance.

It is not necessary that the final sentence should be given before the first resurrection, as some have taught; for the names of the saints are written in heaven, and Jesus, and the angels will certainly know who to raise, and gather to the New Jerusalem. "A Word to the Little Flock"


This also rules out the notion that Daniel 8 points to the restoration of "truth" about the sanctuary in 1844. The prophecy of Daniel 8 is about the activity of the little horn against the sanctuary. And the question asked is until when....will these things happen. After 2,300 days the activities are to stop.

However, nothing changed about the papacy, who the Adventists identify as the little horn, in 1844.

Also, the notion that the "truth" was restored about the sanctuary in 1844 is not accurate either. They did not hold the the investigative judgment view for some time.So even by Adventists standards, they did not figure it out in 1844.

In fact, in 1844 they thought they door was shut, and that no one could come to Christ after that point.

So Christ had only completed one part of His work as our intercessor, to enter upon another portion of the work, and He still pleaded His blood before the Father in behalf of sinners.
This subject was not understood by Adventists in 1844. After the passing of the time when the Saviour was expected, they still believed His coming to be near; they held that they had reached an important crisis and that the work of Christ as man's intercessor before God had ceased. It appeared to them to be taught in the Bible that man's probation would close a short time before the actual coming of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. This seemed evident from those scriptures which point to a time when men will seek, knock, and cry at the door of mercy, and it will not be opened. And it was a question with them whether the date to which they had looked for the coming of Christ might not rather mark the beginning of this period which was immediately to precede His coming. Having given the warning of the judgment near, they felt that their work for the world was done, and they lost their burden of soul for the salvation of sinners, while the bold and blasphemous scoffing of the ungodly seemed to them another evidence that the Spirit of God had been withdrawn from the rejecters of His mercy. All this confirmed them in the belief that probation had ended, or, as they then expressed it, "the door of mercy was shut." GC chapter 24

This was not a restoration of any truth. This was an excuse for believing the false message of William Miller.

So what SDA people adhere to is their salvation is not secure.

bugkiller

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No, I am asking you to explain your application of the type. So you admit the selection happened before. We will add that to the list of things you admit happened before 1844.

So you admit selection ahead
you admit death ahead
you admit entry into the sanctuary ahead
you admit entry into God's presence ahead.

You have basically admitted everything the high priest did IN THE TYPE, up until the point he left the sanctuary and performed the scape goat portion.

Sorry tall, I think you are missing the point of these posts. We are talking about the heavenly Sanctuary which the earthly was only a copy. Much of the ordinances are not required in the heavenly as the earthly was only a copy to demonstrate the heavenly.

HEBREWS 9:7-12
[7], But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
[8], The Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy places [Heavenly Sanctuary G39], the first tabernacle having yet a standing
[9], Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
[10], Which stood only in foods and drinks, and various washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
[11], But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
[12], Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Sorry tall, there is no scripture that says that the day of atonement has started in the book of Hebrews. Is the ministration different when compared to the heavenly? Absolutely, this is what Hebrews 7-10 is discussing. This is also shown by evaluating the chapter context and topic of discussion by Paul in post # 489.

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Since I think LGW and I have gotten to the point where we are repeating, I will address the more general audience apart from responding to LGW for the moment. Now, while LGW may not read Ellen White, the church still considers her writings to be inspired. So for those reading along I will reference her views as normative for Adventist thought.....

But then she adds to the type, indicating the IJ. Instead of the priest performing a cleansing of sin, He is now doing the additional task of an investigative judgment, no where pictured in the type.

Hello tall, I never said I do not read EGW, I told you in a previous post that I have. Why you are saying something differently here I have no idea. Although it it not my main focus of study. She points all to the Word of God. This is where I spend most of my time.

And she does in fact indicate that she views the investigative judgment as part of the Day of Atonement type.

Indeed but that is not the same as saying that she indicates that the investigative judgment is part of the ordinances contained in the day of atonement. The investigative judgment is the work of God while the services in the Sanctuary are the role of the Priest. In the heavenly Jesus is both High Priest, God and King. As highlighted in the scriptures earlier...

HEBREWS 6:20 [20], Where the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

PSALMS 45:6 [6], Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.

HEBREWS 1:8[8], But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.

REVELATIONS 19:16 [16], And he has on his robe and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

You seem to be mixing up the earthly role of the high Priest in the Sanctuary of the OLD COVENANT with Christ's muliple ministrations of High Priest in the New Covenant in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

Sorry tall, God's WORD disagrees with you here in relation to Christs roles under the New Covenant as both God, King and High Priest. We are in the NEW COVENANT now and not the OLD. The OLD things have passed away behold all things have become NEW.

Hope this helps..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This also rules out the notion that Daniel 8 points to the restoration of "truth" about the sanctuary in 1844. The prophecy of Daniel 8 is about the activity of the little horn against the sanctuary. And the question asked is until when....will these things happen. After 2,300 days the activities are to stop.

Sorry tall, it rules out nothing the scripture is very plain here. Let's look at it.

DANIEL 8:12-14
[12], And a host was given him [little horn] to oppose the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it did this, and prospered.
[13], Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint who spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
[14], And he said unto me, For two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

So yep scriptures pretty clear here that this also results in God's truth being restored. I am not sure why you are posting what old member believed at a beginning of a movement when at latter stages they changed their views to follow and believe the truth of God's Word. This does not really support your teachings.

However, nothing changed about the papacy, who the Adventists identify as the little horn, in 1844.

Why should it need to? It is the begining of the cleaning of the Sanctuary, God's great day of atonement in the Heavenly Sanctuary, the begining of the investigative judgment.

DANIEL 7:8-10,
[8], I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
[9], I beheld till the thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and its wheels as burning fire.
[10], A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

links to..

[25], And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
[26], But the court shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
[27], And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

links to...

DANIEL 8:9-14
[9], And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which grew exceedingly great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the glorious land.
[10], And it grew great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
[11], Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
[12], And a host was given him to oppose the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it did this, and prospered.
[13], Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint who spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
[14], And he said unto me, For two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

.............

The cleansing of the Sanctuary or day of atonement (Leviticus 23:24-32) is not complete according to Leviticus 16 as shown earlier until the Sanctuary is cleansed and the sins of all of God's people have been placed on the Scapegoat and sent by the strong man into the wilderness.

LEVITICUS 16:21-22
[21], And Aaron [high Priest] shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
[22], And the goat shall bear on him all their iniquities to a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

links to...

REVELATION 20:1-2
[1], And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2], And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.

This takes place at the completion of the investigative Judgment highlighted in the scriptures of Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 at the 2nd Coming at which time the Kingdom of God is given to the Saints.

DANIEL 7:26-27
[26], But the court shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
[27], And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

After the judgment is completed Jesus returns...

REVELATIONS 22:11-12
[11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
[12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

God's truth has been restored since the 2300 day/year prophecy. God's cleansing of the Sanctuary has started. The events of Daniel and Revelation are playing out. Who will be ready for Christs return?

Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I certainly agree with you reading only the Bible, instead of Ellen White. However, if you have any interaction with a Seventh-day Adventist church (at least, not an overly liberal one) you will be getting Ellen White's viewpoints directed towards you through direct quotes, or indirect reference.

Once again, I ask Jesus to be my teacher as I seek him through his Word. He promises to guide me into all truth. I do not need others to teach me his Word. This is not to say God cannot use others to teach his Word. But God promises us his Spirit that we will know of the doctrine wheather it is of God or not.

Simply that if you seek God through his Word and claim his promises he will guide you into all truth. We cannot find it of ourselves however because the heavens are higher then the earth. It is a gift of God to however to those who know they cannot reach it but wish to seek him.

It is these who find God when they seach for him with all their heart. It is only as we continue like this, seeking Jesus by believing and following his Word that we are his disciples.

It is these who Jesus promises will know the truth and the truth will make them free. This is also a part of the New Covenant.

It is only on the Word of God we stand or fall. All choose where they will build either on sand or the rock.

Come judgment day it is the Word of God that will be our judge.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[tall73]

Indeed but that is not the same as saying that she indicates that the investigative judgment is part of the ordinances contained in the day of atonement. The investigative judgment is the work of God while the services in the Sanctuary are the role of the Priest. In the heavenly Jesus is both High Priest, God and King. As highlighted in the scriptures earlier...

Folks can read. So they can see that she does in fact read it into the Levitical type.

 

[tall73]

Not suprisingly LGW did not explain Ellen White's deceptive use of I Cor. 4:5 by leaving off the reference to the timing.

​

 

[tall73]

Sorry tall, it rules out nothing the scripture is very plain here. Let's look at it.

DANIEL 8:12-14
[12], And a host was given him [little horn] to oppose the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it did this, and prospered.
[13], Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint who spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
[14], And he said unto me, For two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

So yep scriptures pretty clear here that this also results in God's truth being restored. I am not sure why you are posting what old member believed at a beginning of a movement when at latter stages they changed their views to follow and believe the truth of God's Word.

I know you don't get it. But folks reading do. At the end of the 2300 days is 1844. They didn't have the truth in 1844. And nothing happened to the little horn either. So to say the truth was restored in 1844 is incorrect, even if you think the Adventist system is the truth. They were holding to the shut door in 1844, and even Ellen White admitted that was an error.

Why should it need to? It is the begining of the cleaning of the Sanctuary, God's great day of atonement in the Heavenly Sanctuary, the begining of the investigative judgment.

Again, whether you get it, the readers will.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

The whole prophecy relates to the ceasing of the activity of the little horn against the sanctuary. The papacy continued doing what it did all along.

And of course, we can repeat again, but this is not talking about the Day of Atonement anyway. It is talking about defilement by the little horn.

DANIEL 7:8-10,
[8], I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
[9], I beheld till the thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and its wheels as burning fire.
[10], A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Except what it says is how long the trampling ,etc.

How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

By the details of the prophecy that should END in 1844, and it did not .

And of course you can say I am repeating again. The reader can judge.

But your stopping of the little horn is 173 years late and counting.

 

[tall73]

God's truth has been restored since the 2300 day/year prophecy. God's cleansing of the Sanctuary has started.

Apart from your applying the prophecy to something other than what it is about, we have no evidence of anything happening in 1844 other than the Adventists believing a false message that Jesus was coming in 1843, revising it to 1844, and then saying that the proclamation of time in 1843 was a true message.

Miller's message failing to happen indicates he was not speaking for the Lord, per Deut. 18.

And Ellen White saying God was in that message can also be dismissed, because Miller claimed something that was untrue.

And of course Miller's message was date setting which contradicted the Scriptures anyway.

 

[tall73]

Once again, I ask Jesus to be my teacher as I seek him through his Word. He promises to guide me into all truth. I do not need others to teach me his Word. This is not to say God cannot use others to teach his Word. But God promises us his Spirit that we will know of the doctrine wheather it is of God or not.

Simply that if you seek God through his Word and claim his promises he will guide you into all truth. We cannot find it of ourselves however because the heavens are higher then the earth. It is a gift of God to however to those who know they cannot reach it but wish to seek him.

It is these who find God when they seach for him with all their heart. It is only as we continue like this, seeking Jesus by believing and following his Word that we are his disciples.

It is these who Jesus promises will know the truth and the truth will make them free. This is also a part of the New Covenant.

It is only on the Word of God we stand or fall. All choose where they will build either on sand or the rock.

Come judgment day it is the Word of God that will be our judge.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Yes, the Adventist church would do well to discard Ellen White altogether and go with God's word and prayer.


But they have not done that at this time. And so we still have to quote her from time to time because almost no Adventists would say her position is not that of the church on any given topic.

 

[tall73]

Had Ellen White simply applied the advice that she gave to others to William Miller and her own experience, we would be better off.

William Miller preached a false message that Jesus was coming in 1843.

What did Ellen White later say about date setting?

Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time setters. Time after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord's coming is declared to be beyond
the ken of mortals. Even the angels who minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation know not the day nor the hour. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Because the times repeatedly set have passed, the world is in a more decided state of unbelief than before in regard to the near advent of Christ. They look upon the failures of the time setters with disgust; and because men have been so deceived, they turn from the truth substantiated by the word of God that the end of all things is at hand. {4T 307.1}
Those who so presumptuously preach definite time, in so doing gratify the adversary of souls; for they are advancing infidelity rather than Christianity. They produce Scripture and by false interpretation show a
chain of argument which apparently proves their position. But their failures show that they are false prophets, that they do not rightly interpret the language of inspiration. The word of God is truth and verity, but men have
perverted its meaning. These errors have brought the truth of God for theseast days into disrepute.
Testimonies vol 4, pg 307

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I certainly agree with you reading only the Bible, instead of Ellen White. However, if you have any interaction with a Seventh-day Adventist church (at least, not an overly liberal one) you will be getting Ellen White's viewpoints directed towards you through direct quotes, or indirect reference.

Once again, I ask Jesus to be my teacher as I seek him through his Word. He promises to guide me into all truth. I do not need others to teach me his Word. This is not to say God cannot use others to teach his Word. But God promises us his Spirit that we will know of the doctrine wheather it is of God or not.

Simply that if you seek God through his Word and claim his promises he will guide you into all truth. We cannot find it of ourselves however because the heavens are higher then the earth. It is a gift of God to however to those who know they cannot reach it but wish to seek him.

It is these who find God when they seach for him with all their heart. It is only as we continue like this, seeking Jesus by believing and following his Word that we are his disciples.

It is these who Jesus promises will know the truth and the truth will make them free. This is also a part of the New Covenant.

It is only on the Word of God we stand or fall. All choose where they will build either on sand or the rock.

Come judgment day it is the Word of God that will be our judge.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Folks can read. So they can see that she does in fact read it into the Levitical type.

Sorry tall, That is not true at all. You are mixing up the earthly and heavenly ministrations as shown with the scriptures previously quoted from earlier posts.

Your view only narrows Jesus ministration in the New Covenant to the office of the Great High Priest of that of the earthly.

However the role of Jesus in the Heavenly is that of High Priest, King and God which links Jesus role not only as High Priest but also of God who renders judgment under the new Covenant.

This is very clear even in the passages you have shared.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Not suprisingly LGW did not explain Ellen White's deceptive use of I Cor. 4:5 by leaving off the reference to the timing.​

​

There was no deceptive use of 1 Corinthians 4:5 at all. Possibly your interpretation of what was said may be at fault like what was shown with your misapplication of the roles of Jesus in the Heavenly Sanctuary and the new Covenant.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, the Adventist church would do well to discard Ellen White altogether and go with God's word and prayer. But they have not done that at this time. And so we still have to quote her from time to time because almost no Adventists would say her position is not that of the church on any given topic.

Why you feel the need to qote EGW over the bible I know not. All I have seen so far is that your taking quotations out of context with scripture as I have shown in earlier posts to you when you made claims about some quotes in regards to EGW and Leviticus 16. The scriptures shown in the earlier post to you show your application of the scripture was not correct which you appled to the EGW quote.

Sorry tall, I think the application of the scripture was at fault here not the quotations you provided. This is why scripture was provided to help you to understand the different ministries of Jesus under the new Covenant. You were getting the earthly applications of the Levitical Priesthood mixed up with the heavenly application of the New Covenant with the quotes were applied to.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Apart from your applying the prophecy to something other than what it is about, we have no evidence of anything happening in 1844 other than the Adventists believing a false message that Jesus was coming in 1843, revising it to 1844, and then saying that the proclamation of time in 1843 was a true message.

Miller's message failing to happen indicates he was not speaking for the Lord, per Deut. 18.

And Ellen White saying God was in that message can also be dismissed, because Miller claimed something that was untrue.

And of course Miller's message was date setting which contradicted the Scriptures anyway.

Not really tall, they had the right scriptures at the time but in the early staged had the wrong application. The scriptures were then prayerfully re-examined and errors were found in their application of these scriptures.

Happens all the time doesn't it even in the revisions of the bible and interpretations of Prophecy as more understanding becomes available. Keep in mind we are talking Prophecy here. I do not think that anyone has a perfect understanding of all prophecy do you?

That being said I believe that the application of Daniel 7 and 8 to the little Horn and the cleansing of the Sanctuary is the most accurate I have ever come across.

This is also confirmed in the scriptures that it is only a certian goup of people that are privaliged to have this understanding as outlined in the book of Revelation..

REVELATION 12:17 [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So here we have a description of God's people * The keep all of God's commandments and they * Have the TESTIMONY of Jesus.

What is the TESTIMONY of Jesus?

REVELATION 19:10 [10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See you do it not: I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY .

Yep not many people line up with the scriptures as keeping ALL the commandments of God. It is those who keep all the commandments of God that he has given an understanding of Prophecy.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Folks can read. So they can see that she does in fact read it into the Levitical type.

Not really tall, your applying an application she has never said. This is sad for you. It is your application of the scripture that are at fault here not the quotation you provided. You mix up the earlthy with the Heavenly ministrations as shown earlier through the scriptures.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Apart from your applying the prophecy to something other than what it is about, we have no evidence of anything happening in 1844 other than the Adventists believing a false message that Jesus was coming in 1843, revising it to 1844, and then saying that the proclamation of time in 1843 was a true message.

Miller's message failing to happen indicates he was not speaking for the Lord, per Deut. 18.

And Ellen White saying God was in that message can also be dismissed, because Miller claimed something that was untrue.

And of course Miller's message was date setting which contradicted the Scriptures anyway.

Not really tall we have a fulfilling of prophecy and the restoration of God's truth and the establsihment of the Sanctuary and the daily as well as the start of the cleansing of the Sanctuary as already shown through the scriptures. You deny this application as agree to disagree as show through the thread. You mix up the earthly ministration with the heavenly.