GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

[tall73]

You seem to be mixing up the priests roll in your post with that of those confessing sin and have not addressed why the Sanctuary needs to be cleansed from sin and taken away from the presence of God by the scapegoats.

It is not just the sanctuary cleansed of sin in the Day of Atonement. It is the sanctuary, the people, everything.

For on that day the priest shall make i]">[i]atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever. 32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments; 33 then he shall make j]">[j]atonement for k]">[k]the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.


And the reason is that they are a sinful people. It is a picture of corporate forgiveness.

And the sanctuary lives in the midst of this sinful people. So it is also cleansed.

16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness.



As to the scapegoat, that is not explained in the New Testament. So I would be speculating. But that part of the type happens after the high priest leaves the sanctuary. And it appears to relate to the removal of sin from the world.

The scapegoat is another aspect of Jesus' work. Both the scapegoat and the Lord's goat are of the same type. A lot is used to determine which is which. So both would be without blemish.

7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.

Both are pictures of atonement, and aspects of Christ's work.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It is not just the sanctuary cleansed of sin in the Day of Atonement. It is the sanctuary, the people, everything.

Agreed This is what I have been saying to you.

But you have been highlighting it's application to the people and neglect the cleansing of the Sanctuary and removal of sin from the presence of God by the scapegoat. That is why I highlighted Leviticus 16.

This is the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the removal of sin from the presence of God and is relavant to the day of Atonement and what makes it different to the daily and relevant to Daniel 8:13-14.

Do you see what I am highlighing now in relation to the OLD Covenant Sanctuary and how it relates to the new and Daniel 8?

Hope this helps

 

[tall73]

No not at all tall, why have a day of atonement if the people are already atoned for individually? That does not make any sense. Of course sin is purified by the blood. Who says anything differently? Why make an argument that I already agree with? What you have mixed up however is the purpose of the day of atonement and the cleansing of the sanctuary from sin and how it differs from the daily sacrifice and forgiveness of sins.
.

There is no mix up. You say you agree blood cleanses. But then you do not indicate that it cleanses in the sin offering. You indicate it transfers.

But the text says everything it touches is made holy. It says it makes atonement.

The sin offering is one person's confession of a single sin.

Now you say why have a Day of Atonement when people are atoned for individually? Because they are all pictures to illustrate to the people the various aspects of the work of Christ:

10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The sin offering illustrates how we individually confess a particular sin, and that another must pay for it. The person would kill the animal. Then the priest would minister the blood. This was a lesson for each person about the cost of each of their sins.

And the Day of Atonement is an illustration of what Jesus did--make one corporate provision for all sins, for all time.

They are different lessons, all talking about the one sacrifice of Christ.

 

[tall73]

I think you are missing the point made earlier and that is yes Jesus is our sacrifice, yes Jesus is our great high priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary. Yes it is God that does the investigative judgment (not for his benefit but for heavens). What you are missing here is that yes it is God that does the judgment but Jesus is also God, Man, Priest and sacrifice. Judgment is God's work. Jesus is also God (John 1:1-3; 14).

I didn't miss that Jesus judges. But we appear before the judgement seat, bow the knee, confess, etc. This is when He comes, after He already left the sanctuary.

 

[tall73]

No it isn't. This has already been discussed in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 9. The reason that Jesus can appear in God's presenece is because he is the sinless sacrifice. This is not talking about the cleansing of the Sanctuary and God's Juddgment which once again we are told in scripture does not take place until after the judgment of the little horn (Daniel 7:10; Daniel 8:13-14). If what you were saying is correct the little Horn would already be judged and the kingdom already given to God's people which is a reference to judgments given and the 2nd coming. Obviously this has not taken place so your application of the scriptures here teaching the Sanctuary is already cleansed is not correct.

And of course....Daniel 7 does not show the Day of Atonement, so no conflict at all.

Access to the throne of grace is conditonal according to God's WORD as is acess to the mercy seat. The mercy seat was directly on top of the Ark of the Covenant that held the 10 Commandments. The scriptures tell us the grace is given for obedience to the faith and the God's mercy is only given to those who believe and follow his WORD (Romans 1:5; 16:26; Exodus 20:6)

God's 10 Commandments were the foundation of the mercy seat.

EXODUS 25:21 And you shall put the mercy seat above on the ark; and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you.

Mercy is only given to those who by faith believe God's WORD and have repented from their sins and have been forgiven and chosen to follow God's Word. These are the condtions of Mercy..

EXODUS 20:6 And showing mercy to thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Which is why Jesus says...

JOHN 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

and again..

JOHN 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

God's mercy is conditional and this is what is determined in the investigative Judgment and the removal of sin from the presenese of God at the great day of atonement in the Heavenly Sanctuary which the scriptures talk about in Daniel 7:10 and Daniel 8:13-14. This takes place after the 2300 day/year prophecy of Daniel 8:13-14.

Can you explain why we are going to the mercy seat at all if Jesus is not doing Most Holy Place ministry?

We go to Jesus at time of need. This does not mean there is not a judgment at Jesus' coming. It means that Jesus made provision for all sin immediately in the first century, and now we confess our sins to Him.

He judges us at His coming.

 

[tall73]

Much of the shadow laws in ordinances are not spelled out in the NT but the books of DANIEL and REVELATIONS tell the story especially when linked to an understanding of the annual feasts of Leviticus 26 and 23.

Hebrews 9:23-25 spells out the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary. So that is covered in the NT. The scapegoat is not explicitly referenced. You can say what you think it means, and find parallels in Daniel and Revelation, but it doesn't mention the scapegoat.

 

[tall73]

Not really for those living during this time we are told many are called but few are chosen. All will be judged on what they know, not what they do not know (James 4:17)

And because of Hebrews 9:23-25 they all already knew that Jesus ministered His sacrifice before the Father in the first century.

 

[tall73]

I do not think you understood my posts here. I have never said the book of Hebrews does not talk about the day of atonement. I disagreed however that your reference to Hebrews 1:3 was a reference to the completed day of atoenement by providing scriptures from Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 9 showing that Christs priesthood is different from the earlthy.

Please explain your view of Hebrews 9:23-25. You have twice now said Hebrews speaks of the Day of Atonement.

This is the central text in the NT that explains the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary. So what does it mean?

 

[tall73]

Well this is twisiting what I have posted and never said. I already said in previous response posts to you that the scripture in Hebrews 1:3 is in reference to Christs complete sacrifice then provided scriptures from Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 9 to show his ministration and why he can sit in the presence of God.

Once again, Hebrews 1:3 shows purification for all sins. Purification....cleansing.

Explain why it doesn't mean what it says.

 

[tall73]

Not at all. This only means that the judgment is not completed and is still going on in Heaven according to the scriptures.
.

Incorrect. It says "until when". The activity of the little horn should stop at the end of the 2,300 days. It did not. The papacy and confession are still going strong.

 

[tall73]

We are told in DANIEL 7:10 that the books of the judgment were opened. We are told in other scriptures what those books are. One of them is the book of life, the other the book of remembrance (Rev 3:5; 8; 17:8; 20:12-13; 15; Mal 3:16).

Actually there are

Multiple books of works:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

And then a singular book of life:

and another book was opened, which is the book of life

The book of life is not mentioned in Daniel 7

 

[tall73]

I did not agree that the scripture here is only in reference to persecution in Peter's day did I?

Unless you think the IJ started in Peter's day that text is not helping you.

 

[tall73]

I think your missing the point of the scriptures posted here. The cases of the righteous are already decided before the 2nd Coming.

I think you are missing the point. Jesus already knows who He is coming for. The cases were never in doubt. But we still appear before Him.

And we still bow the knee, give an account, confess, etc.

 

[tall73]

Of course it can we are talking about the judgment and the heavenly Sanctuary after the 2300 day/year prophecy of Daniel 8:13-14.

1 TIMOTHY 5:24, Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

This indicates that some men's sins are obvious, and are open to being known even before the judgment. But some men's follow after to the judgment, and are not known until then.

It doesn't say anything about the righteous being judged first. In this case both have their sins going to the judgment, just one runs ahead and is obvious because of their actions.




1 TIMOTHY 5:25 , Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

This is the flip-side of that. Some peoples good works are manifest to all before hand. But the ones that are not now manifest to everyone will not stay hidden at the judgment.

Again this is not about timeing of righteous being judged first, and then the wicked.

Some peoples sins are obvious ahead of time. Some are only revealed at the judgment.

Some people's good deeds are obvious ahead of time. Some are only revealed in the judgment

 

[tall73]

However, no the day of atonement and Christ's duties in the heavenly Sanctuary as our great high priest for the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the removal of sin from the presence of God has not been completed.

You need to explain what you have admitted is Day of Atonement language in Hebrews 9:23-25.

The scapegoat happens after He leaves the sanctuary, so that has not happened yet.

 

[tall73]

The books open in the judgment are the book of life and the book of rememberance (deeds and acts). There are is more then one book as the Hebrew word used here is plural.

The word for books is plural in Rev. 20...then there is another book, the book of life.

 

[tall73]

Sorry tall,

I think you missed the point here again. Revelations 20:11-12 is saying that God's reward is with him at the 2nd coming for his people. For God's rewards to be with him the for the Judment is completed before the 2nd coming.

God's judgment is before completed before the 2nd coming when he proclaims...

REVELATION 22:11-12 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Don't know if it gets much clearer then that.

It says He is bringing His reward. He said He goes to prepare a place. And He already knows His own. Why is that an issue?

 

[tall73]

Seems you are not reading the posts I have provided for you. I agree with the above what you are not seeing however is that the day of atonement is also for the removal of sin from the presence of God with the scapegoats

I did read it, but we are cross posting, responding to one while the other is responding.

The scapegoat portion I do not see fulfilled yet. It doesn't happen until the priest leaves the sanctuary.

But you need to address Hebrews 9:23-25. Because that part already happened. And it explains the cleansing of the sanctuary-- only place in the NT it is spelled out specifically.

 

[tall73]

Agreed This is what I have been saying to you.

But you have been highlighting it's application to the people and neglect the cleansing of the Sanctuary and removal of sin from the presence of God by the scapegoat. That is why I highlighted Leviticus 16.

We are still cross posting.

But the cleansing of the sanctuary is explained in Hebrews 9:23-25. You have said you agree this talks about the Day of Atonement. So what does it mean?

This is the central issue of the whole debate.

 

[tall73]

I think you are missing the point made earlier and that is yes Jesus is our sacrifice,

.

Jesus' sacrifice was once for all, and we agree on that.

However, another aspect of the Day of Atonement was also once for all.

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Holy Places once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Jesus' entry was once for all. The entry was a key part of the Day of Atonement. And this is entry into the second compartment, because it is entry through, or by means of, blood (διὰ with genitive). The priest would go into the first compartment without requiring blood. But blood was required to enter into the second:

Hebrews 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

This description of the earthly is paralleled by Jesus' action in the fulfillment:

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Holy Places once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


So the once for all sacrifice already happened, and the once for all entry already happened. Both of these are key aspects of the Day of Atonement, and happened once for all in the first century.