Immaculate Conception???

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 5:12 "Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."

It's that simple. Works come as a result of our faith. Not the other way around. There is no "He has the Son and worked hard has life." or "He who has the Son but doesn't work very hard doesn't have life."

While it is true that we need to have the Son in order to have life (1 John 5:12), what does Scripture say in regards to us in knowing if we are abiding in the Son (Who is the source of our eternal life)?

Well, 1 John 2:3 basically says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments.

"And hereby we do know that we know him,
if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3).​

1 John 2:4 says the exact opposite. It says that person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).​

Yes, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. Jesus is the source of our salvation. But if we abide in the Lord, then good fruit (and not bad fruit) will be the proof that we are saved. So obedience is a necessary part of the faith because it shows we are abiding the person who is the source of salvation itself.

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).​

For what is the alternative or opposite proposal to:
"God's grace + obedience = salvation"?

The alternative is: Being saved by "God's grace + disobedience."

So if you admit that fruit is necessary to show that a person is a true believer or not, but we are not saved by works, what you are really saying is that obedience is necessary for salvation but you simply do not want to openly admit that fact. But if this is the case, then why believe this way?

 

[Invalidusername]

I never said it didn't. All I doing was pointing out that Jesus was not the only righteous man in history, and you changed the subject by "refuting" what "I said" about Abraham; twisting my point into a faith vs. works argument, when all I did was quote passages of scripture without any commentary.

Obviously, the Son represents the Word of God, in which Noah, Daniel, Job (Ezekiel 14:14), Abraham, Elijah and Enoch had. The Bible even records Enoch and Elijah being taken into Heaven like Jesus was (2 Kings 2:11, Hebrews 11:5).

Jesus was the only person with righteousness entirely merited to Himself and nobody else. Every one of those other people had to have faith and to walk with God.

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

People in the old testament had faith in God and God credited to them as righteousness. They did not earn it by any merit except by faith. Of course faith resulted in actions but the actions only represented their faith. Their faith was what made them righteous. A lot of scholars believe that those people in the OT will also have their sins washed away by Jesus Christ, except they had to put their faith in something that had not yet happened. This was what became their righteousness. No man is perfect.

 

[Invalidusername]

While it is true that we need to have the Son in order to have life (1 John 5:12). What does Scripture say in regards to us in knowing if we are abiding in the Son (Who is the source of our eternal life)? 1 John 2:3 basically says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments.

"And hereby we do know that we know him,
if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3).

1 John 2:4 says the exact opposite. It says that person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar,
and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

Yes, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. Jesus is the source of our salvation. But if we abide in the Lord, then good fruit (and not bad fruit) will be the proof that we are saved. So obedience is a necessary part of the faith because it shows we are abiding the person who is the source of salvation itself.

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

Of course, I never once said that disobedience is acceptable. However we are not saved by deeds. If we are, then we are doomed already since every single one of us have sinned. There's a difference between making mistakes and failing versus deliberately rejecting Jesus Christ and his commandments and falling into a lifetime of apostasy. The Bible isn't warning about "oops" mistakes. The Bible is warning against deliberate disobedience that lasts for a period of time until God loses His patience.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course, I never once said that disobedience is acceptable. However we are not saved by deeds. If we are, then we are doomed already since every single one of us have sinned. There's a difference between making mistakes and failing versus deliberately rejecting Jesus Christ and his commandments and falling into a lifetime of apostasy. The Bible isn't warning about "oops" mistakes. The Bible is warning against deliberate disobedience that lasts for a period of time until God loses His patience.

You are contradicting yourself, my friend.
One the one hand: You are saying that we are not saved by deeds; And yet,
on the other hand: You are saying that if we do not obey to some extent (in regards to holiness obviously), then we are apostate. So it seems that good works and or obedience do play a part in the salvation equation because no believer can be saved by God's grace + disobedience.

 

[Invalidusername]

You are contradicting yourself, my friend.
One the one hand: You are saying that we are not saved by deeds; And yet,
on the other hand: You are saying that if we do not obey to some extent (in regards to holiness obviously), then we are apostate. So it seems that good works and or obedience do play a part in the salvation equation because no believer can be saved by God's grace + disobedience.

Jesus Christ's death cleansed you of all of your sins. If you don't have this you HAVE NOTHING. Thus if you have His sacrifice and then deliberately reject that, you LOSE IT ALL.

Understand now?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course, I never once said that disobedience is acceptable. However we are not saved by deeds. If we are, then we are doomed already since every single one of us have sinned. There's a difference between making mistakes and failing versus deliberately rejecting Jesus Christ and his commandments and falling into a lifetime of apostasy. The Bible isn't warning about "oops" mistakes. The Bible is warning against deliberate disobedience that lasts for a period of time until God loses His patience.

As for oops mistakes:

That kind of statement suggests that we can be foot loose and fancy free with sin as if it is no big deal. However, Paul says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Why all the trembling if it is not taking about fear?

In fact, there are sins that are especially grievous that a believer can make that can lead to spiritual death.

Ananais and Sapphira lied to God about their giving and they died and a great fear fell upon the church and all who heard it. If they were saved, then the church would not experience the emotion of fear because Paul says to live is Christ and to die is gain. They might be sad, but if they were saved and they felt fear? That would not make any sense.

Suicide (and remaining dead) is also a grievous sin that you cannot repent of.

Jesus says a person is in danger of hell fire for lusting after a woman. Jesus did not say that a person had to constantly be lusting after a woman 24/7. He simply said if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body can potentially be cast into hell fire. So again, we have to obey God and fear the Lord. God's grace requires obedience as a part of the salvation process. If this was not the case, then you can live in as much sin as you like and you can still be saved. Oh, and yes; I have talked with Eternal Security Proponents who do believe they can sin as much as they like and they can still be saved. One guy admitted to me in person that he could mow down a crowd of people with a machine gun and still be saved. So I see Eternal Security as a justification of sin on some kind of level. We as believers should never justify that it is okay to do even "oops type sins." Yes, God's grace can be there for us if we honestly do stumble, but I believe that a saint will overcome sin in this life (See Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus Christ's death cleansed you of all of your sins. If you don't have this you HAVE NOTHING. Thus if you have His sacrifice and then deliberately reject that, you LOSE IT ALL.

Understand now?

Actually, 1 John 1:7 speaks contrary to what you just said here. John says,

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."​

In other words, if you walk in the light (Obey God the father's commands - abiding in Him) as Christ is in God the Father, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Compare 1 John 1:6-7 with 1 John 2:3-4.

1 John 2:9 says he that hates his brother is in darkness.

1 John 3:10 says,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To further add to walking in the light as Christ is in the light (i.e. the light being God the Father because He is the Father of lights):

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

 

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Paul says if any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema (accursed) (1 Corinthians 16:22). What does the Bible say in regards to showing how we love Jesus?
Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
So obedience is necessary as a part of the salvation process.
Yes, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace.
We are not saved by Works Alone. But we are saved by both God's grace + works.
For the reason Christ gave Himself for us is to make us holy, blameless (Ephesians 5:25-27), and to be zealous of good works (Titus 2:14).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

If we are not keeping His commandments, this means we are not abiding in his love. See 1 John 2:4. Then read 1 John 2:5-6.

 

[Invalidusername]

To further add to walking in the light as Christ is in the light (i.e. the light being God the Father because He is the Father of lights):

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

You are missing the point. You keep thinking that I promote disobedience which is absolutely ridiculous. We obey Christ because we have the Holy Spirit. We obey Him because we have the new Spirit within us. This is something that is a fact. However we don't DO anything to secure our salvation. Saying that is like saying that His sacrifice isn't good enough. You are saying that His sacrifice is... almost good enough... and you still have to earn it. Which is something the Jews were preaching to the Gentiles telling them to get circumcised and become Jews in order to "enhance" their position with God. Paul heavily condemned them for this.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

I love how you glossed over the bolded section and pretended that it didn't exist. Who took care of our sin here? Was it us? No. Jesus Himself cleansed us. It is representative of the process of being a Christian and how His blood continually cleanses us.

Teaching legalism is a very tricky and difficult road to go down. Eventually you get to the point where your actions supersede the sacrifice and that is a very dangerous road. We need to rely on HIM for forgiveness alone and not, "Hey God I was pretty faithful, can I go to heaven now?" We are faithless, disgusting, sinful, and repulsive scum and we must depend on HIS righteousness and not ours for our righteousness is nothing but filthy rags.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are missing the point. You keep thinking that I promote disobedience which is absolutely ridiculous. We obey Christ because we have the Holy Spirit. We obey Him because we have the new Spirit within us. This is something that is a fact. However we don't DO anything to secure our salvation. Saying that is like saying that His sacrifice isn't good enough. You are saying that His sacrifice is... almost good enough... and you still have to earn it. Which is something the Jews were preaching to the Gentiles telling them to get circumcised and become Jews in order to "enhance" their position with God. Paul heavily condemned them for this.

But this grace is based upon disobedience ultimately because it does not say you are saved by obedience (Which suggests that you can be saved in disobedience, i.e. the opposite of obedience). You say you will obey because of the Spirit but then you contradict yourself and say that salvation does not include us obeying.

What is the opposite of light?
Darkness.

What is the opposite of cold?
Hot.

What is the opposite of sad?
Happy.

What is the opposite of salvation that is God's grace + obedience?
Salvation that is God's grace + disobedience.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

But the condition of Jesus Christ cleansing us of all sin is walking in the light. This is talking about obeying God's commands. For that person who says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).

I love how you glossed over the bolded section and pretended that it didn't exist. Who took care of our sin here? Was it us? No. Jesus Himself cleansed us. It is representative of the process of being a Christian and how His blood continually cleanses us.

Jesus blood only cleanses us of all past sins when we continue to believe and obey Him.

Teaching legalism is a very tricky and difficult road to go down.

I believe we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. A believer does not do a work to be initially saved but they are saved by His grace by their seeking His forgiveness and by believing in His death and resurrection. A believer is also ultimately saved by God's grace because if they do happen to stumble on their road to recovery in overcoming sin in this life, they confess their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven (saved) again (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). But confessing sin is context to forsaking sin (See again 1 John 1:7). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). Legalism is alleged against any view that obedience to law, not faith in God's grace, is the pre-eminent principle of redemption. This is not what I believe.

See the theological definition of Legalism at Wikipedia here.

Eventually you get to the point where your actions supersede the sacrifice and that is a very dangerous road.

Please show me a Scripture that talks about this.
Oh, and if what you say is true, then please explain 2-3 of the verses in my list that shows obedience is also necessary in addition to the foundation of our salvation (Which is God's grace). Note: Click on the spoiler button to check out the verses.

Spoiler

After We are Saved by God's Grace,
God’s Works (Done Through Us) Are Also Required As a Part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

We need to rely on HIM for forgiveness alone and not, "Hey God I was pretty faithful, can I go to heaven now?"

Please refer me to a Scripture that talks about this.
On the contrary, you may be surprised to learn that the Bible says the exact opposite of what you just said here.

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

We are faithless, disgusting, sinful, and repulsive scum and we must depend on HIS righteousness and not ours for our righteousness is nothing but filthy rags.

Again, this sounds to me like "Salvation = God's grace + disobedience."

As for Isaiah 64:6 that says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags:

Well, this is talking about doing their own works (that God did not tell them to do) and not God's works.

The context is verse 5 and verse 7 (Which makes it clear that the individuals in verse 6 did not call upon the Lord and worked GOD's righteousness).

"You meet him that rejoices and works righteousness, those that remember you in your ways: behold, you are angry; for we have sinned: in those ways is continuance, and we shall be saved." (Isaiah 64:5).

"And there is none that calls upon your name, ..." (Isaiah 64:7).

1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous.
1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil.
John 3:20 says all who do evil hate the light.
1 John 3:10 says,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

5 "...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" (Romans 2:5-12).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

 

[MountainPine]

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

If we are not keeping His commandments, this means we are not abiding in his love. See 1 John 2:4. Then read 1 John 2:5-6.

To further add to walking in the light as Christ is in the light (i.e. the light being God the Father because He is the Father of lights):

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

What does the Bible say in regards to showing how we love Jesus?
Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
So obedience is necessary as a part of the salvation process.

You are right on the money, sir! I would like to add some scripture to enforce your point:

Quoting from The Scriptures by ISR (sorry to those of you who are KJO, but I'm copy/pasting this out of convenience. I am not trying to start a debate on semantics.)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” John 5:24

“But He said, “Blessed rather are those hearing the Word of Elohim and watching over it!” Luke 11:28

Faith is not the mere acknowledgement that Christ is the Son of God, but rather an action that entails doing what God asks of you (to obey Him) and expecting the reward for it, and that reward is a resurrection unto everlasting life.

“[T]hough being a Son, He learned obedience by what He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting deliverance to all those obeying Him.” Hebrews 5:8-9

“יהושע said to him, “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6

What is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

“Blessed are the perfect in the way, Who walk in the Torah of יהוה!” Psalm 119:1

“Your righteousness is righteousness forever, And Your Torah is truth.” Psalm 119:142

“The Torah of the wise is a fountain of life, Turning one away from the snares of death.” Proverbs 13:14

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.” Matthew 5:17-18

“And יהושע said to him, ‘You shall love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great command. And the second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ On these two commands hang all the Torah and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:37-40

Loving God with all heart, being, and mind requires keeping His commandments.

“And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the commands.” Matthew 19:17

“If you love Me, you shall guard My commands.” John 14:15

“יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. “He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.” John 14:23-24

“And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.” 1 John 2:3-5

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

If the blood of Jesus washed away your sins, then you have no sin anymore. Repentence is what brings salvation, and without it, then you are ideologically impaling Jesus to the cross every time you sin, which makes you a murderer at heart.

The idea of Jesus' death was to confirm his promise of everlasting life to those to obey him, which is to obey the commandments. Faith is the expectation that God will reward us in return for our full obedience. That reward is the resurrection to an inheritance in the Kingdom of Heaven, in which was demonstrated by his resurrection. A believing sinner would be sealed with certainty in the truth of his teachings and is given the willingness to spread them no matter what the personal cost. This combination of faith in Christ's teachings and righteous actions in spreading the Gospel lead to forgiveness of sins and salvation for those who believe. The point is to STOP sinning, hence "go and sin no more" (John 8:11).

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were (not are) yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

I'd also like to address your trashing of the context of Romans 3:10. This passage is a hyperbole. Paul is quoting Psalm 14:2-3 because the same thing was going on in David's time, and it was relevant to his time too. But this only applies to the audience whom Paul wrote to. No one in that particular place and time was earnestly seeking God.

To say that Romans 3:10-11 applies to every human that has lived and lives now is contrary to scripture. In Psalm 14 (where Paul is quoting from), verse 5 says “There they are in great fear, For יהוה is with the generation of the righteous.” How can there be a "generation of the righteous" if "not one" does good?

In Rom 3:18 Paul quotes Psalms 36:1 - "There is no fear of God before his eyes..." First of all, the previous line states, "Transgression speaks to the wrong within his heart" So this is not talking about all men, but about ungodly men.

Why would Paul say a few verses later (Romans 3:22) that the righteousness of God is upon all who have the faith of Christ?

If no one could be capable of seeking God, then why does the Old Testament say things like “But from there you shall seek יהוה your Elohim, and shall find, when you search for Him with all your heart and with all your being.” (Deuteronomy 4:29), “I love those who love me, And those who earnestly seek me do find me.” (Proverbs 8:17), “And you shall seek Me, and shall find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13), etc.?

Even Christ said that those who seek will find. (Matthew 7:7-8) Why would he say this if no one will ever seek God? Anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ and is not seeking God is a liar and hypocrite.

If Romans 3:10 applies to all men then it would also apply to Jesus too, considering the passage does not say “There is none righteous except Jesus”, it says “There is none righteous, no, not one!”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are right on the money, sir! I would like to add some scripture to enforce your point:

Quoting from The Scriptures by ISR (sorry to those of you who are KJO, but I'm copy/pasting this out of convenience. I am not trying to start a debate on semantics.)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” John 5:24

“But He said, “Blessed rather are those hearing the Word of Elohim and watching over it!” Luke 11:28

Faith is not the mere acknowledgement that Christ is the Son of God, but rather an action that entails doing what God asks of you (to obey Him) and expecting the reward for it, and that reward is a resurrection unto everlasting life.

“[T]hough being a Son, He learned obedience by what He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting deliverance to all those obeying Him.” Hebrews 5:8-9

“יהושע said to him, “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6

What is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

“Blessed are the perfect in the way, Who walk in the Torah of יהוה!” Psalm 119:1

“Your righteousness is righteousness forever, And Your Torah is truth.” Psalm 119:142

“The Torah of the wise is a fountain of life, Turning one away from the snares of death.” Proverbs 13:14

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.” Matthew 5:17-18

“And יהושע said to him, ‘You shall love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great command. And the second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ On these two commands hang all the Torah and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:37-40

Loving God with all heart, being, and mind requires keeping His commandments.

“And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the commands.” Matthew 19:17

“If you love Me, you shall guard My commands.” John 14:15

“יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. “He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.” John 14:23-24

“And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.” 1 John 2:3-5

Thank you. It makes my heart sing that you agree with me that we are saved by God's grace + obedience. Too many today are seeking the easy and wide gate path by saying that we are saved by grace alone - minus good works (Which can lead people to turn God's grace into a license for immorality).

Two things we appear to differ slightly on is:

(a) John 14:6. I believe: "the WAY" is Jesus Christ. We first come to Jesus seeking His forgiveness and believe in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation. Then we obey His commands in the New Testament (as a part of the salvation process).

(b) We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. For Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. When Jesus said he came not to abolish the Law, I believe He was speaking of God's laws in general. In other words, Jesus did not come to destroy all form of God's laws, but he came to fulfill them into their intended purpose with the giving of the commands in the New Testament. I believe the Old Laws have been abrogated. Even the moral laws are not exactly the same because the command that says "Do not commit adultery" is not backed up with stoning or capital punishment by the hand of God's people. The Old way was: An eye for an eye, but in the New way, Jesus said: "whosoever shall strike you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39). Peter was told to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law). Yes, there was a spiritual message in regards to the Gentiles for Peter in regards to his vision, but God was also saying that we can now eat unclean animals, too. For both Jesus and Paul taught that we can eat whatever we want now. For Jesus says,

"There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man." (Matthew 7:15).

1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."
(1 Timothy 4:1-5).​

In the Old way: Not keeping circumcision meant you broke God's covenant.

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).​

Yet, in the New way: Seeking to be justified by circumcision means Christ profits us nothing, though.

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).​

In the Old way, you could die physically (by stoning) for collecting sticks on the Sabbath (See Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, in the New way: Paul says we are not to judge according to Sabbaths (See Colossians 2:16).

When Jesus died upon the cross, the temple veil was torn from top to bottom letting us know that the laws on the priesthood and the sacrifices were no more. Jesus is now our Lamb of sacrifice and our Heavenly High priest.

So the Law has changed, just as Hebrews 7:12 says.

 

[Invalidusername]

The problem with you two is you are constantly putting words in my mouth and making assumptions that I believe Christianity is something that you can just do whatever you want. Since you keep making that assumption, we can't really have a reasonable debate and you two seem to be more concerned about scratching each other's itching ears so I'll leave you be.

I'll leave you with this, if you think those "righteous" people in the Bible never sinned then you are completely 100% missing where righteousness comes from.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The problem with you two is you are constantly putting words in my mouth and making assumptions that I believe Christianity is something that you can just do whatever you want. Since you keep making that assumption, we can't really have a reasonable debate and you two seem to be more concerned about scratching each other's itching ears so I'll leave you be.

I'll leave you with this, if you think those "righteous" people in the Bible never sinned then you are completely 100% missing where righteousness comes from.

Again, it sounds like you are seeking to defend disobedience in a small way by your seeking to point to men of God who had stumbled into sin in the Old Testament. While we can honestly stumble into sin, the New Covenant teaches us that we can overcome sin (See Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2). For one, we are not under the Old Covenant. Two, men of God in the Scriptures did not preach that we can be saved by God's grace with no works whatsoever or without holiness. Three, when you tell people that they are saved by God's grace and it is not in anything that you do and you do not add any more information, they can easily think that you are talking about turning God's grace into a license for immorality. You have to always add that believers are marked by living a holy life. So if you truly believe that, then you believe obedience is required as a part of the salvation process. But you said that is not the case, so I am assuming some level of disobedience is okay with you in regards to being saved by God's grace. But do you not realize that it only took one sin to separate God from man in the garden? The lie the devil gave Eve was that she and Adam could sin or break God's law and yet not die. This same lie is being pushed today. You will not die if you break God's laws. We are saved by God's grace. Grace, grace, grace, grace. But grace is not grace if it does not include good works and holiness. Grace is an extension for us to live a holy life and or to go through the Sanctification process by God's Word and the Spirit. See Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 2:14, Hebrews 5:9.

 

[Invalidusername]

Again, you are seeking to defend disobedience in a small way by your seeking to point to men of God who had stumbled into sin in the Old Testament. While we can honestly stumble into sin, the New Covenant teaches us that we can overcoe sin (See Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2). For one, we are not under the Old Covenant. Two, men of God in the Scriptures did not preach that we can be saved by God's grace with no works or without holiness. Three, when you tell people that they are saved by God's grace and it is not in anything that you do and you do not add any more information, they can easily think that you are talking about turning God's grace into a license for immorality. You have to always add that believers are marked by living a holy life. So if you truly believe that, then you believe obedience is required as a part of the salvation process. But you said that is not the case, so I am assuming some level of disobedience is okay with you in regards to being saved by God's grace. But do you not realize that it only took one sin to separate God from man in the garden? The lie the devil gave Eve was that she could sin or break God's law and yet not die. This same lie is being pushed today. You will not die if you break God's laws. We are saved by God's grace. Grace, grace, grace, grace. But grace is not grace if it does not include good works and holiness. Grace is an extension for us to live a holy life and or to go through the Sanctification process by God's Word and the Spirit. See Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 2:14, Hebrews 5:9.

You are very clever with twisting things to match your agenda. If you truly think that some men are Holy by their own merits.... I don't know what else to say except that it is extremely non-scriptural.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are very clever with twisting things to match your agenda. If you truly think that some men are Holy by their own merits.... I don't know what else to say except that it is extremely scriptural.

Who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).

 

[Invalidusername]

Who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).

So you go on this long tirade about how I am some evil person who is preaching that sin is okay and then all of a sudden you write a post that agrees with every single thing I've said?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you go on this long tirade about how I am some evil person who is preaching that sin is okay and then all of a sudden you write a post that agrees with every single thing I've said?

I am saying that your belief is a contradiction that can potentially lead certain folks down the wrong path if you do not explain yourself correctly. For when you say that a person is saved by "God's grace + no obedience" and you say nothing more, that can lead others to think that one can sin and still be saved. I also did not write a post that agrees with everything you said. I believe obedience is a part of salvation still. My post was not in contradiction to that. It is saying that this obedience is surrendering to the good work the Lord does through us. This is done after we are saved by God's grace.

Side Note:

I am aware that you said a true believer will show forth obedience, but for me, this is just another way of saying that obedience is required as part of the salvation process. For can a believer disobey God and still live out their faith and be saved by God's grace? No.