GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

tall73

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Why you would think there are no references to the day of atonement in the Book of Hebrews, I have no idea as this is something I have never said or believe.

Those quotes referenced primarily v. 23-25 of Hebrews 9.

So can you clarify, is Hebrews 9:23-25 referencing the Day of Atonement? And if so, what do you think is the meaning of Hebrews 9:23-25?

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Places every year with blood of another
 
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tall73

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Hebrews 1:3 has nothing to do with the Great day of atonement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary outlined in Leviticus or has it been fulfilled.

Hope this helps.

Corporate provision for all sins, making purification for sin, has nothing to do with the Day of Atonement?

I think you missed a few points.
 
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tall73

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Agreed :oldthumbsup:

As shown earlier through Hebrews 8, Hebrews 9 and Leviticus, however, the purpose of the Day of atonement, God's judgement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary from sin is different to the daily ministration of sin.
Jesus making purification for all sins is not daily ministration. It is corporate, complete, purification.

Hebrews 1:3b when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

This is not describing the daily ministration. Unless there was no daily ministration after the first century. The events described there are completed already. It was the corporate purification of sins.
 
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tall73

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Not really tall, this has already been addressed through earlier scriptures. Just saying because the priests application of blood was not mentioned in the scriptures does not mean this is an argument to claim that the purpose of the Sanctuary is not the application of Blood sacrifice when it has already been outlined in other scriptures that the cleansing of the Sanctuary is all about blood sacrifice (Leviticus 16; 23:27-32).

You are clearly confused. I never said blood application is not the purpose of the sanctuary. It certainly is!

And that is what Jesus did in the first century, death, entry into God's presence, and purification for sins.

What I said was Daniel 7 doesn't mention it, because it is not talking about that.
 
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tall73

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So you do not agree that...


* Daniel 7 and Daniel in your view do not show a the restoration of the Sanctuary linked to judgement which is for the cleansing of sin?
They clearly relate to the restoring of the sanctuary from the defilement of the little horn.

The defilement of the little horn, and its subsequent removal, is not the same as the Day of Atonement.


* The book of life in not used in the judgement of Daniel 7-8?

It is not mentioned at all in Daniel 7 or 8. Nor would it need to be. The judgment is on powers, and they are not in the book of life.

* The book of life is not used in the judgement of God's people?
Of course it is. And the judgments where it is actually used, it is mentioned.

But Daniel 7 does not show the judgment on God's people. It shows judgment on the little horn, fourth beast, and allows the other three beasts to survive. The saints are referenced only as the beneficiaries, and corporately as a group being delivered, not scrutinized, etc.

* Judgement has nothing to do with the day of Atonement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary?
Not the work of the high priest in the sanctuary, no. That involved corporate provision for sin in the form of blood. There were no books, there were no records, there was provision of blood.

Now in regards to the activity of the people, yes. They either accepted the work done by the priest, or they did not. They either followed the prescriptions or not. And as I mentioned, I see some of the elements of the Day of Atonement being carried out in the end times. Though these are not spelled out in the NT as to their fulfillment, so the most we can do is figure based on the type.

But the sacrifice, entry, presentation before the Father, already happened. Purification for sins already happened. And that was the work of the high priest in the sanctuary.
 
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tall73

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This is where I beleive you have the earthly mixed up the the heavenly as discussed earlier.

The points were made showing the parallels in both Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 and their connection to the restoration of the daily sacrifice, Sanctuary and God's truth at the end of the 2300 day/year prophecy. It also shows the connection of the Sanctuary linked to judgement which is for the cleansing of sin.

The main point here is that the time period when the restoration of the Sanctuary and the daily starts is well after the establsihement of the little horn and the acts of the little horn.

What you are suggesting above is correct if the application was to the earlthy sanctuary however it is not because the time period here and the application here is well into the NEW COVENANT so the application has to be to the Heavenly Sanctuary not the earthly.

No, in fact it is not about the DOA whether heavenly or earthly.

The Day of Atonement cleansing is from the sins of all people.

The restoration in Daniel 8 is from the activity of the little horn.

Those are not the same thing, and never can be.

Now, if you take it to be the Catholic system of confession, etc., that is in fact still going on. So that has not stopped.

And if you take it to mean the understanding of Jesus in the Day of Atonement, Adventists were the only ones particularly confused on the point. Other Christians already realized Jesus made corporate purification for all sins, in the first century.
 
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tall73

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Ineed but it is very clear what books are being referred to in the judgement this is demonstrated in the scriptures already provided from Daniel and Revelation that the books being referred to in the judgement were the book of life. Those not written in the book of life and those blotted out receive the Judgements of God.

You say indeed, acknowledging that Daniel 7 nowhere mentions the book of life.

But then you immediately jump to a different context where the book of life is included.

The other places where it is included it is clear it is talking about a judgment on individuals. And it is included because individuals will be found or not in the book.

That is not the case in Daniel 7 because the judgment is on powers. Their deeds are still recorded. So books are present.

I already demonstrated the difference between the books, and the book of life, in Revelation 20.

You cannot read things in from other contexts to make this text say what you want.
 
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tall73

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I
1. First Peter 4:17, “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God, and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” Here Peter regards this declaration as a prophetic statement applicable “to the last period of the church” (v5–7, 12–13). It reveals two great classes—the righteous and the sinners—that “will be judged before they are raised from the dead.” The investigative judgment of the house, or church, of God will take place before the first resurrection; so will the judgment of the wicked take place during the 1000 years of Rev. 20, and they will be raised at the close of that period.”

Are you copy and pasting? Because we already looked at this text and agreed it is referencing the persecution of Christians in Peter's day.
 
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tall73

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2. The text “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection” (Rev 20:6) refers to the righteous and is evidence that their cases will be “decided before Jesus comes to raise them from the dead.”
Jesus knows His sheep. There is no confusion who to raise.

And when we actually appear before Him we bow the knee, we confess, we give an account. So there is no need for a protracted investigation either.

But the larger point is that Daniel 7 pictures no such thing. And you have read the book of life into a text that does not mention it. And you have read an individual judgment in to a text that is judging powers.
 
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tall73

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3. First Timothy 5:24, “Some men’s sins [the righteous] are open beforehand, going before to judgment, and some men [the wicked] they follow after,” means that “some men lay open, or confess their sins, and they go to judgment while Jesus’ blood can blot them out, and the sins be remembered no more; while sins unconfessed, and unrepented of, will follow, and will stand against the sinner in that great day of judgment of 1000 years.”

Again, are you copy and pasting? Because we looked at that earlier in the thread, and reviewed how it does not in fact mean this.
 
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tall73

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Much attention is given to the matter of the blotting out of sins in the judgment in the combined books of Daniel and Revelation. In regard to the time, Daniel 8:14 shows that this judgement does not take place when sinners are forgiven. Rather, it occurs during “the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary,” at “the great day of atonement 2300 years after the establishement and acts of the little horn.

If Daniel 8:14 said "at the great day of atonement" we wouldn't be having this conversation! Instead the cleansing is from the activity of the little horn.

Now, we still agree that those who endure to the end will be saved. However, the blood work, the part related to what the high priest did in the sanctuary, is already completed. The purification for sins is made, and that is what was pointed to in the DOA portion that relates to the entry into God's presence.

Now we either accept it or not in real time.
 
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tall73

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Not at all. The searching of the books for judgement is God's Work not ours or the work of the high priest.

The high priest was the one who did the work in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. So if you are saying that is not the work of the high priest, then you are acknowledging what I already agree with-- that the books are not related to the priest's work in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.


The day of atonement (earthly) was the only time during the year when the high priest would enter the Holy of Holies in the innermost chamber of the Temple (or Tabernacle) to make atonement for the sins of all Israel. Atonement literally means "covering." The purpose of the sacrifice was to bring reconciliation between man and God (or "at-onement" with God) by covering the sins of the people
It involved an application of blood in God's presence. Jesus already appeared in God's presence for us per Hebrews 9:23-25. So that happened. That is the basis of the atonement.

However, people still come to Him at the throne of grace for application:

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Notice where they are going--to the throne of grace--analogous to the mercy seat. Jesus already provided the blood application and sat down. Now He ministers the results as we respond, and go to Him at the throne of grace.


and the removal of the sins of God's people held within the Sanctuary from the presence of God for the cleansing of the Sanctuary (scapegoats).
This is not spelled out in the NT. I expect this will relate to the removal of all sin from the world at the end, in line with the timing of the feast. But what is spelled out already in the NT is Jesus' application of blood in the sanctuary, in Day of Atonement terms.

The days leading up to and on the day of Atonement for cleansing of sin (earthly) was a time of repentance to God's people (Lev 23:24-30). At this time God's people were to express remorse for their sins committed throughout the year through prayer and fasting.
And in the fulfillment that would not work, because then only a small portion of Christians would ever experience it, instead of the whole camp. Jesus performed the one sacrifice, one entry, and one appearance in God's presence which resulted in the purification for sins in the first century. Then all Christians could realize that they come to Him at the mercy seat to receive grace.

The day of atonement was a type of final day of judgment to God's people, for the removal of and cleansing of the Sanctuary from all the sins of God's people committed throughout the year.

It is both a picture of blood application for purging of sins, which Jesus already accomplished, and a picture of the removal of all sin from the camp, not yet accomplished.

The part done in the sanctuary was the appearance in God's presence and blood application. Jesus already did it.

Then when He leaves the sanctuary the scapegoat portion is accomplished. That is yet to come. Jesus has not left the sanctuary yet.
 
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tall73

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Not any man made books written in the earthly of which was only a pattern of that which is in heaven.

Please explain what you are talking about here: "man made books written in the earthly"?
 
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tall73

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Already discussed this is like saying a scripture is not talking about the ten commandments when the words ten commandments are not used but some of the ten commandments are being referenced throughout the scripture. It is a false argument.

It is not at all. It says the books were opened. The books refer to the book of records. It says the books, and I referred to the books.

The book of life is not mentioned. It is described separately in Rev. 20. It is described as another book.

Now you are saying it must be there because those are the books used in the judgment of individual cases of people--and then circularly, you say we know this is a judgment on individual people--because of the books!

It does not mention the book of life because it is a judgment on powers. Record books could still be used in judging nations. I already pointed out in Amos when specific charges were brought against nations in God's judgment.
 
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tall73

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[12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[13], I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Yes, He rewards them at His coming. That of course is not an IJ.

2 TIMOTHY 2: 7-8, I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: From now on there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but to all them also that love his appearing.
And what day will the Righteous Judge award it? At His coming. And Paul says he already finished his race. His reward is already waiting for the awards ceremony. Paul knows the outcome, and he gets the crown. No IJ needed.
 
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tall73

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BTW I have not ever read that he ever had any visions or dreams that he was promoting only a study of the scriptures. So your claims about him being a false prophet?


It was Ellen White who claimed the preaching of definite time in 1843 was of God. Have you not read Early Writings?
 
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The7thColporteur

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It was Ellen White who claimed the preaching of definite time in 1843 was of God. Have you not read Early Writings?
Yeah, it is found in Revelation 10 KJB, under the "seven thunders", and in the type in the days of Jesus. Sister White explains that, have you not read sister White?

I also can't help but notice that you are on sister White ... again. See the OP and following materials - GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?
 
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Bob S

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Thank you 7 for prompting to read Ellen. I read the 1843-44 account in "Early Writings". I just gleaned this from her account of the time before the 1844 disappointment the following:

Near the close of the second angel’s message, [see Appendix.] I saw a great light from heaven shining upon the people of God. The rays of this light seemed bright as the sun. And I heard the voices of angels crying, “Behold, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him!” {EW 238.1}

Ellen's angel showed that to her and then Jesus didn't come. Could it possibly be that Ellen just made that up and there was not an angel from Heaven telling her that Miller's accounting from scripture was a sure thing? Jesus was coming? Funny that only those she called Babylon were the only ones around that really knew the truth that we know not when Jesus will appear. And those who knew the real truth would not be listened to. Kinda like today. We proclaim the simple plan of salvation as taught in the new covenant and there are those who deny the Word and would rather remain under the Sinai covenant defunct Sabbath.
 
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tall73

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Yeah, it is found in Revelation 10 KJB, under the "seven thunders", and in the type in the days of Jesus. Sister White explains that, have you not read sister White?

I also can't help but notice that you are on sister White ... again. See the OP and following materials - GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?
Oh we can't help be on Sister White when it comes to the Adventist judgment. There is no other place to find it.
 
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