Messianics who preach circumcision

BukiRob

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Or since it speaks these certain men which had Pharisaic sectarian beliefs.
They said the exact same thing that the certain men which argued with Paul.
Lu 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

*The certain men came from Judea
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

*Until they went out, these were not manifest...
Persons were unaware of them....

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
*They feasted with believers......
Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding
themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

These were exposed when it came to the Gospel to the uncircumcision.....

Here you go again... interjecting your own belief instead of relying on the text to tell you what is going on.

1) 0 evidence that the men from Judea are believers. This lends tremendous support for the CORRECT view that both they, AND the believing Jews viewed that ONLY a Jew could be saved, therefore, the gentile FIRST must convert to be saved.

STOP trying to push your own interpretation when the text PLAINLY SPEAKS!

You INSIST on trying to tie the observance of Torah when that is NEVER at any point brought up in the debate.

Jews EXCLUSIVELY used the mosaic model of dispute resolution and Act 15 is showing you EXACTLY that!!!

Jews ONLY dealt with 1 issue at a time and they DID NOT allow other arguments to be put forward until the original argument was decided on the witness of 2 or more persons.

You see this AGAIN addressed in Acts 21 when James trying to stop the FALSE teaching that Paul was teaching against Torah, instructs Paul to take the vow of the Nazarene
 
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Open Heart

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What about the Sons of Aaron, and then the entire tribe of Levi? These the holiest of all descendants of Abraham through Isaac, did not have an inheritance with Israel.
Correct. They had a specific job that wasn't agrarian and the Torah provided for their welfare via the tithe. However, they were still to live in Eretz Yisrael.
 
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AbbaLove

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Which Messianics are preaching circumcision and for what purposes?
Which Messianic Jews do you think?
(this may be one of Steve's trick questions so i'll play along)​

Acts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
You certainly don't agree that it was a sect of Jewish Christian Judaizers that were preaching circumcision as does this Christian commentary on Acts 15:1 ?
"These Jewish Christians (often called "Judaizers") taught that Gentiles may become Christians, but only after first becoming Jews, and submitting to Jewish rituals, including circumcision."
By "Which Messianics" are you suggesting that Christian Judaizers are Messianics ?? ;)
 
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AbbaLove

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This lends tremendous support for the CORRECT view that both they, AND the believing Jews viewed that ONLY a Jew could be saved, therefore, the gentile FIRST must convert [to Judaism] to be saved.
Is that how the name Judaizer came into being? This then supports the view that the certain sect that came from Judea to Antioch were likely Jewish Messianic Believers and not Jewish Christians (Acts 15:1).
 
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Open Heart

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Which Messianic Jews do you think?
(this may be one of Steve's trick questions so i'll play along)​

Acts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
You certainly don't agree that it was a sect of Jewish Christian Judaizers that were preaching circumcision as does this Christian commentary on Acts 15:1 ?
By "Which Messianics" are you suggesting that Christian Judaizers are Messianics ?? ;)
I for one do not insist that Gentile believers be circumcised and come under the Mosaic law. It is obvious to me that the Council of Jerusalem ruled against this. But it is just as obvious that it never forbade it to Gentiles that wished it. Why shouldn't they be circumcised if they so wish? Why shouldn't they draw near to God through observing Torah if they are drawn? It is a mistake to deny them. Let them draw near!
 
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Open Heart

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Is that how the name Judaizer came into being? This then supports the view that the certain sect that came from Judea to Antioch were likely Jewish Messianic Believers and not Jewish Christians (Acts 15:1).
Yes, that is what a Judaizer was. One who believed a Gentile must become circumcized aka become a Jew and obligated to Mosaic law, in order to be saved. It's insulting -- there is nothing wrong with remaining a Gentile.

In order to understand the Judaizing issue, we must first understand that circumcision is the act of conversion, which is not just religious conversion (your God will be my God) but also ethnic conversion (your people shall be my people). IOW to become circumcised was to become a Jew. That may not be true in our own day and age, but was very definitely true in the Bible times.

Today things are different. Heck folks get circumcised just for hygienic reasons. So there are plenty of Messianic Gentiles who get circumcised and they are NOT trying to become Jews -- it's just not the same thing going on as back in the book of Acts.
 
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visionary

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Yes, that is what a Judaizer is. One who believes a Gentile must become circumcized aka become a Jew and obligated to Mosaic law, in order to be saved. It's insulting -- there is nothing wrong with remaining a Gentile.

In order to understand the Judaizing issue, we must first understand that circumcision is the act of conversion, which is not just religious conversion (your God will be my God) but also ethnic conversion (your people shall be my people). IOW to become circumcised was to become a Jew. That may not be true in our own day and age, but was very definitely true in the Bible times.
Back then they believed Jews were the chosen people, and with that frame of mind, it was obvious to them, the gentiles must convert to being a Jew.
 
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Open Heart

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Back then they believed Jews were the chosen people, and with that frame of mind, it was obvious to them, the gentiles must convert to being a Jew.
Right. Before the Council of Jerusalem, there were simply many believers who misunderstood. Even Peter misunderstood before the Lord sent him the dream. Now we know that there is a second chosen people, another priesthood, another Ekklesia "set apart," which is Jews and Gentiles equal before God, no longer "Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free."
 
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BukiRob

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Is that how the name Judaizer came into being? This then supports the view that the certain sect that came from Judea to Antioch were likely Jewish Messianic Believers and not Jewish Christians (Acts 15:1).
I personally do not believe that they were believers at all. Scripture goes out of its way to identify those who were believers. Since they are not identified as such, it is reasonable to take the position that they were not.
 
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BukiRob

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Nope! Verse 5 supports the belief that they were a sect of Jewish Believers (certain men) that as Jewish Believers held on to the law of circumcision in order to be saved. We may agree that they weren't true Believers even though they believed they were Believers.

Acts 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.​

So, were these Pharisee Believers the forerunners of Messianic Judaism or Judaic Christianity? One Christian commentary on Acts 15:1 puts it this way ...

"These Jewish Christians (often called "Judaizers") taught that Gentiles may become Christians, but only after first becoming Jews, and submitting to Jewish rituals, including circumcision."

Even today there are Messianic Jews that believe a non-Jewish Messianic Believer that attends a Passover Seder should be circumcised. Perhaps, the majority of Messianic Jews believes every true male follower of Messianic Judaism should be circumcised. So, it would not have been uncommon in Paul's day for certain men (Jewish Messianic Believers) from Judea to travel to Antioch to instruct non-Jewish Greek Believers that they must be circumcised to be saved ... “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved” (Acts 15:1).

If you can persuade tampasteve to agree with your Nope! and not my Nope! i will agree that your Nope! overrules my Nope! :)

Even by Paul's day not all Messianic Jewish Believers saw eye-to-eye (just as it is today), so it's quite possible that in like manner the "certain men" that crept in to spy out a Believers liberty in Yeshua were also a Jewish sect that actually believed they were Messianic Believers.

Galatians 2:4
Indeed, the question came up only because some men who pretended to be brothers had been sneaked in — they came in surreptitiously to spy out the freedom we have in the Messiah Yeshua, so that they might enslave us.



You are mixing groups.

Vs 1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

I see no reason to even remotely believe that the Pharisee's in vs 5 are these same men. I personally do not make that connection.

Regardless though, Acts 15 is ENTIRELY about WHO can be saved.
 
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Open Heart

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I personally do not believe that they were believers at all. Scripture goes out of its way to identify those who were believers. Since they are not identified as such, it is reasonable to take the position that they were not.
They were there at the Council of Jerusalem. Why would non-believers be participants at a major council?
 
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pat34lee

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Keeping the sabbath is a absence of all work in regard to the law not going to church. I have not asked anyone who considers that day Holy to stop doing so. What I do state is its not needed for salvation. And its not my custom or how I was raised and after all these years with relationship with Jesus I am not going to add it as a means to keep in Gods love unless Jesus informs me my understanding is wrong. That is it is required to be kept in order to remain faithful to Him. I read col 2 vs 16 and what I read is don't let anyone judge you about sabbaths or a sabbath day they were a shadow of things that were to come and the reality is found in Christ. The condition God set in the forgiveness of sin is to believe in the One He sent not a absence of all work one a week. As there all those who keep the sabbath but reject Jesus. Not meaning you.

You are talking about two things: salvation and obedience.
Salvation is a free gift. Obedience should be our response
to salvation because we love God and want to please him.
Not for any benefit it may give us, but for him only.

Yet the first things many Christians are taught is that we are
free to do what we want. Technically right, but selfish in the
worst way, because it denies that we owe everything to God.
I can't even imagine people treating their parents as badly as
they treat God and what he wants. I think people have not
remembered we are to fear God as the most powerful being
and as our creator and our judge.
 
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AbbaLove

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I see no reason to even
remotely believe that the Pharisee's in vs 5 are these same men. I personally do not make that connection.
I never said they were Pharisees. What i said is that they were a sect of Jewish men who thought they were Believers (#371) that came from Judea to Antioch. We don't know what sect (certain men), and it's very possible that Peter or Paul didn't know what sect (certain men) other than they were Judaizers. That is not to eliminate certain Pharisee believers as being these (certain men). However, i didn't imply that they were attendees at the Council of Jerusalem. It's my understanding only the Apostles made up the Council of Jerusalem.
I personally do not believe that they were believers at all. Scripture goes out of its way to identify those who were believers. Since they are not identified as such, it is reasonable to take the position that they were not.
Don't disagree. However, there are so-called sects today like JWs and LDS that say they are Christian Believers even though we would agree that they don't believe that Yeshua is the physical manifestation of Incarnate God. Do you conclude that a Messianic Jew that doesn't believe Yeshua is the physical manifestation of Adonai therefore isn't a Believer? It's likely that both Paul and Peter didn't consider these Judaizers to be Believers, even if they thought Yeshua was Israel's Messiah.
They were there at the Council of Jerusalem. Why would non-believers be participants at a major council?
Where did you get the idea these "certain men" were participants at the Jerusalem Council?
 
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ralliann

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Correct. They had a specific job that wasn't agrarian and the Torah provided for their welfare via the tithe. However, they were still to live in Eretz Yisrael.
But not fellow heirs with Israel. Their inheritance like Abraham and with Abraham is the heavenly Jerusalem.
 
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Elihoenai

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Gentiles must be Circumcised! Circumcision is an absolute requirement of the faith. The Pharisees and Scribes are Righteous!


5:20 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

20 `For I say to you, that if your righteousness may not abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye may not enter to the reign of the heavens.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:20 - Young's Literal Translation


Matthew 5:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:20 - King James Version
 
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Steve Petersen

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Which Messianic Jews do you think?
(this may be one of Steve's trick questions so i'll play along)​


It was not a trick question.

Are you referring to people on this forum, particular MJ congregations or organization, MJ leaders today or those in ancient times?

I am not sure who it is that you are upset with?
 
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ralliann

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I never said they were Pharisees. What i said is that they were a sect of Jewish men who thought they were Believers (#371) that came from Judea to Antioch. We don't know what sect (certain men), and it's very possible that Peter or Paul didn't know what sect (certain men) other than they were Judaizers. That is not to eliminate certain Pharisee believers as being these (certain men). However, i didn't imply that they were attendees at the Council of Jerusalem. It's my understanding only the Apostles made up the Council of Jerusalem.
It identifies certain men twice. The first is the certain men which had come from Judea...
Ac 7:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Then again here again there were certain men from among the sect of Pharisees.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

It seems whoever these certain men were, they had enough "clout" to influence as teachers among the brethren in the Church to cause a great dissention. Enough that the church felt the need to consult the apostles in Jerusalem. As is said here.....

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and about this question.

These certain men obviously had great respect as teachers because..after the decision was made at the council they sent their decision to the churches by letter (decree) concerning this matter.
Resulting actions of the council...……..
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
certain men
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

Where did you get the idea these "certain men" were participants at the Jerusalem Council?
These certain men had come from the church at Jerusalem, and were accepted as teachers to the churches to a degree that letters had to be sent out to the Churches and a council had to be held over it. Hardly a situation caused by men hardly known to the churches. These had great enough influence to the churches that the apostles elders and whole church had to write letters from the Church at Jerusalem. The whole Church chimed in on this decision. Apostles, elders, and the whole Church IMO concerned all that were present there.
 
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Open Heart

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But not fellow heirs with Israel. Their inheritance like Abraham and with Abraham is the heavenly Jerusalem.
rallian, where in the Torah does it promise heavenly Jerusalem as part of the Original Covenant?
 
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ralliann

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rallian, where in the Torah does it promise heavenly Jerusalem as part of the Original Covenant?
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
 
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