Messianics who preach circumcision

[Randy777]

And again, IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND Acts 15 YOU WILL NOT UNDERSTAND the admonition of Circumcision!!!

The understanding is a matter of debate not welcome here. As in your words "The gentile lead churches"

 

[ralliann]

It is an interesting phrase that is used. In the same way, how did Noah know what 'clean' animals were, when he put them in the Ark after all the others? He appears not have had any lessons on the matter - one might be forgiven for thinking that if two of every living thing was in the Ark, then the required 'clean' animals were there in any case, so he just needed to top up the number to 7. But he must have wondered what 'clean' meant, and why 7 of those, and not any of the others.

As I said before, clean to Noah concerned sacrifices, not food. So, when you say clean to what are you referring? Altar kosher? Did Noah consider only those animals clean which are fit for the altar?

 

[Heber Book List]

As I said before, clean to Noah concerned sacrifices, not food. So, when you say clean to what are you referring? Altar kosher? Did Noah consider only those animals clean which are fit for the altar?

How /what did Noah know about animal sacrifices? If it was clean for food purposes, how did Noah know that? What did they eat for 40 days - presumably not those of which only two were saved?

 

[ralliann]

I don't see the Sinai covenant as a separate covenant, but as an addendum to the Abrahamic covenant.

Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Abraham: I unconditionally give the promised land to your descendants through Isaac. This is an everlasting covenant -- it cannot be broken.

Moses: AND if you keep my commandments, I'll actually let you live there and bless you. Now if you break my commandments I'll punish you and kick you out of the land, but the land will still be yours.

Scripture please?
What about the Sons of Aaron, and then the entire tribe of Levi? These the holiest of all descendants of Abraham through Isaac, did not have an inheritance with Israel.

 

[BukiRob]

The understanding is a matter of debate not welcome here. As in your words "The gentile lead churches"

There is NO debate. 15:1 plainly states what the debate is concerning. It is PLAIN. Those that say otherwise are ignoring what the text makes plain. Only when one perverts what is plainly stated and ignores the Jewish cultural actions regarding Acts 15 can you distort it into Gentiles are not bound to observe the commandments and feast days of Adonai.

 

[ralliann]

How /what did Noah know about animal sacrifices? If it was clean for food purposes, how did Noah know that? What did they eat for 40 days - presumably not those of which only two were saved?

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Animal sacrifices were going on long before Noah. Not just animal offerings were brought IMO. But I think offerings to God back then were the choicest of all they had of either kind.
Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Mal 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[ralliann]

Deuteronomy 7:12
If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then Yahwah your God will keep his covenant and will love you, as he swore to your ancestors.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

KJ21
“Therefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments and keep and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which He swore unto thy fathers.

I was going to quote those too. this is what Paul meant IMO by law of works, brings wrath etc.

 

[ralliann]

This is a quote from Jerimiah. The new covenant is the Torah written on the heart on in the mind...

Far, FAR too many simply ignore the Master's words: DO NOT THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH TORAH!

Torah includes all 5 books of Moses and spans several covenants.

 

[Heber Book List]

Animal sacrifices were going on long before Noah. Not just animal offerings were brought IMO. But I think offerings to God back then were the choicest of all they had of either kind.
Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Mal 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

I'll try again - if they did not, as you have said, see the clean animals as food - what did they eat?

 

[ralliann]

I'll try again - if they did not, as you have said, see the clean animals as food - what did they eat?

Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

 

[AbbaLove]

15:1 plainly states what the debate is concerning. It is PLAIN. Those that say otherwise are ignoring what the text makes plain.

It's plain these "certain men from Judea" were Jewish Believers that came to Antioch teaching: “You cannot be saved unless you are circumcised as the Law of Moses requires.” Do you think these Jewish Believers left Antioch with their minds changed that these non-Jewish Greek Believers didn't need to be circumcised?

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (Acts 15:5)​

Do you think this certain sect of Pharisee Believers would have stood by while Paul received five times from the Jews 40 lashes minus 1, was three times beaten with rods, and once stoned OR would they have objected to this severe punishment by their Jewish brethren?

What's with the rabbit trail about how Noah knew which animals were clean? Thought this thread was about ... Messianics who preach circumcision ?

 

[Heber Book List]

Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

You miss the point, completely In the Ark were just TWO of every kind and SEVEN of all the clean animals. When they were hungry, which did they eat? If they ate into the two of every kind then those species gradually became less and less and there was a wholesale wipeout of those species, yes?

 

[BukiRob]

​

It's plain these "certain men from Judea" were Jewish Believers that came to Antioch teaching: “You cannot be saved unless you are circumcised as the Law of Moses requires.” Do you think these Jewish Believers left Antioch with their minds changed that these non-Jewish Greek Believers didn't need to be circumcised?

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (Acts 15:5)​

Do you think this certain sect of Pharisee Believers would have stood by while Paul received five times from the Jews 40 lashes minus 1, was three times beaten with rods, and once stoned OR would they have objected to this severe punishment by their Jewish brethren?

Nope! Nowhere does it indicate that they were believers, in fact, Paul on more than one occasion ran into problems with this group.

Scripture DOES indicate that there were Pharisee's in this meeting who were believers.

15:1 Tells us that the debate is over WHO can be saved.

The men from Judea and those Pharisee's who BELIEVED agreed that the gentile must first be circumcised and then walking in Torah. If you understand the Jewish mindset what they are saying is that a GENTILE can NOT be saved that only the Jew can be saved.

How can we trust that this is the accurate understanding? We can tell that this is clearly what the understanding was by the TESTIMONY of the 3 of Peter, Paul, and Barnabas as their testimony was that, G-d was MOVING among the Gentiles and that they were coming to Messiah. The 3 REFUTED the argument that only the Jew could be saved.

James makes this clear in his judgement concerning the gentiles in verses 20 AND 21.
In verse 20 James instructs the Gentile believers to utterly REJECT the Pagan Idolatry practices among the communities in which they lived and that they were to attend synagogue on Sabbath to LEARN the teachings of Moses in verse 21.

Once you understand what is being argued the rest clearly, easily falls into place and you don't find yourself having to twist, distort and ignore other things in the chapter.

 

[ralliann]

You miss the point, completely In the Ark were just TWO of every kind and SEVEN of all the clean animals. When they were hungry, which did they eat? If they ate into the two of every kind then those species gradually became less and less and there was a wholesale wipeout of those species, yes?

I cannot respond anymore on this subject. complaints are mounting

 

[ralliann]

Nope! Nowhere does it indicate that they were believers, in fact, Paul on more than one occasion ran into problems with this group.

Scripture DOES indicate that there were Pharisee's in this meeting who were believers.

15:1 Tells us that the debate is over WHO can be saved.

The men from Judea and those Pharisee's who BELIEVED agreed that the gentile must first be circumcised and then walking in Torah. If you understand the Jewish mindset what they are saying is that a GENTILE can NOT be saved that only the Jew can be saved.

Or since it speaks these certain men which had Pharisaic sectarian beliefs.
They said the exact same thing that the certain men which argued with Paul.
Lu 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

*The certain men came from Judea
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

*Until they went out, these were not manifest...
Persons were unaware of them....
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
*They feasted with believers......
Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding
themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

These were exposed when it came to the Gospel to the uncircumcision.....

 

[ralliann]

​

This thread boils down to this: Is there a different covenant for Jewish believers than non-Jewish believers? If not than why have the Ten Commandments been amended by Christians (e.g. Randy777, the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant Church).

ralliann has yet to answer my previous reply (283) to her post to me ... so i posted it again (328) to see if she agrees that Christianity has amended God's Ten Commandments. Amendments seemingly just for non-Jewish Believers. For example circumcision on the 8th day isn't a commandment for non-Jewish Believers, nor is observing the 7th Day Sabbath as a Day of Rest being just two examples.​

I have said several times already.....I believe scripture clearly teaches covenants are not amended, either to subtract or add.

​

 

[AbbaLove]

Nope! Nowhere does it indicate that they were believers, in fact, Paul on more than one occasion ran into problems with this group

Nope! Verse 5 supports the belief that they were a sect of Jewish Believers (certain men) that as Jewish Believers held on to the law of circumcision in order to be saved. We may agree that they weren't true Believers even though they believed they were Believers.

Acts 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.​

So, were these Pharisee Believers the forerunners of Messianic Judaism or Judaic Christianity? One Christian commentary on Acts 15:1 puts it this way ...

"These Jewish Christians (often called "Judaizers") taught that Gentiles may become Christians, but only after first becoming Jews, and submitting to Jewish rituals, including circumcision."​

Even today there are Messianic Jews that believe a non-Jewish Messianic Believer that attends a Passover Seder should be circumcised. Perhaps, the majority of Messianic Jews believes every true male follower of Messianic Judaism should be circumcised. So, it would not have been uncommon in Paul's day for certain men (Jewish Messianic Believers) from Judea to travel to Antioch to instruct non-Jewish Greek Believers that they must be circumcised to be saved ... “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved” (Acts 15:1).

If you can persuade tampasteve to agree with your Nope! and not my Nope! i will agree that your Nope! overrules my Nope!

Even by Paul's day not all Messianic Jewish Believers saw eye-to-eye (just as it is today), so it's quite possible that in like manner the "certain men" that crept in to spy out a Believers liberty in Yeshua were also a Jewish sect that actually believed they were Messianic Believers.

Galatians 2:4
Indeed, the question came up only because some men who pretended to be brothers had been sneaked in — they came in surreptitiously to spy out the freedom we have in the Messiah Yeshua, so that they might enslave us.

​

 

[visionary]

As I said before, clean to Noah concerned sacrifices, not food. So, when you say clean to what are you referring? Altar kosher? Did Noah consider only those animals clean which are fit for the altar?

Probably since he was a vegetarian until after the flood.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Back to the OP. Which Messianics are preaching circumcision and for what purposes?

 

[AbbaLove]

Probably since he was a vegetarian until after the flood.

Even after the flood Noah's fondness for grapes was not diminished. Makes you wonder if Noah had ever gone 40 days without the fruit of the vine during the years he spent building the ark?