Messianics who preach circumcision

[visionary]

Agree, I should have stopped at "salvation' as I believe the whole purpose of the Law, is to help us draw near to God, to sanctify us for his presence. Thanks for checking

Do you believe it is that the purpose of God's law is for law and order?

 

[tampasteve]

Do you believe it is that the purpose of God's law is for law and order?

Could you clarify what you mean by "God's law"?

 

[AbbaLove]

Agree, I should have stopped at "salvation' as I believe the whole purpose of the Law, is to help us draw near to God, to sanctify us for his presence. Thanks for checking

Being that you mentioned it first (Law) assume it is the same "Law" referred to by Paul in the following verse ...

The one who is physically uncircumcised yet keeps the Law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker
(Romans 2:27).​

Vis doesn't capitalize God's "law" but me thinks you both are referring to the same "Law" that Paul refers to in the above verse. Vis, do you think its the same Law referred to by Paul when he says, "yet keeps the Law" ? Note: A Jewish women is physically uncircumcised.

Do you believe it is that the purpose of God's law is for law and order?

 

[CherubRam]

Deuteronomy 7:12
If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then Yahwah your God will keep his covenant and will love you, as he swore to your ancestors.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

KJ21
“Therefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments and keep and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which He swore unto thy fathers.

 

[AbbaLove]

​

Could you clarify what you mean by "God's law"?

Are you implying there's a difference between "God's law" and "God's Law" ? This may help Vis to better know how to answer your question to her.

 

[Open Heart]

To my way of seeing this...It is not good enough to say the original covenant. As I said, God made two covenants with Abraham. Those in my mind are the original covenants. The Sinai covenant is a distinct covenant which is not made with Abraham.
The Exodus from Egypt under Moses, was a fulfillment of the covenant made in Genesis 15. Passover and the feast of unleavened bread are memorials of Gods fulfillment of promises made to Abraham. The nation of Israel is back there today as a result of that covenant. It is a covenant God keeps unto the natural seed of Abraham.
I believe that is why Israel is called God's firstborn. Two portions in Abraham....
One: temporal and earthly (a shadow) Moses
One: eternal and heavenly...( a reality) Jesus
Those of the circumcision in the foreskin of the flesh, which are believers share in both portions = firstborn.

The 1st covenant....
Ge 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

The 2nd covenant....
Those of the uncircumcision which believe have a share equally with the circumcision.
Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
So when you say original covenant, which do you refer.

I don't see the Sinai covenant as a separate covenant, but as an addendum to the Abrahamic covenant.

Abraham: I unconditionally give the promised land to your descendants through Isaac. This is an everlasting covenant -- it cannot be broken.

Moses: AND if you keep my commandments, I'll actually let you live there and bless you. Now if you break my commandments I'll punish you and kick you out of the land, but the land will still be yours.

 

[Open Heart]

How do you read Hebews 8:13?

The Original Covenant is worthless (obsolete) when it comes to eternal salvation -- you cannot get to heaven by obeying the law (not that you ever could, but people had begun to think so). The Original Covenant is also impermanent and "passing away." It will only last til the end of the world, whereas the New Covenant will last into eternity.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I don't see the Sinai covenant as a separate covenant, but as an addendum to the Abrahamic covenant.

Abraham: I unconditionally give the promised land to your descendants through Isaac. This is an everlasting covenant -- it cannot be broken.

Moses: AND if you keep my commandments, I'll actually let you live there and bless you. Now if you break my commandments I'll punish you and kick you out of the land, but the land will still be yours.

Galatians says as much. Putting the Abrahamic and Old Covenants, Paul says:

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.​

 

[chunkofcoal]

Agree, I should have stopped at "salvation' as I believe the whole purpose of the Law, is to help us draw near to God, to sanctify us for his presence. Thanks for checking

I'd been looking forward to your response to Open Heart's question - I thought 'sanctification' would've been an interesting topic. Maybe start another thread?

 

[visionary]

​

Being that you mentioned it first (Law) assume it is the same "Law" referred to by Paul in the following verse ...

The one who is physically uncircumcised yet keeps the Law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker
(Romans 2:27).​

Vis doesn't capitalize God's "law" but me thinks you both are referring to the same "Law" that Paul refers to in the above verse. Vis, do you think its the same Law referred to by Paul when he says, "yet keeps the Law" ? Note: A Jewish women is physically uncircumcised.

​

I think the statute laws are written on parchment. Laws referring to circumcision are found there. When I say God's Law, I am referring to the TEN written in stone and to be written in the hearts of man. The laws that are written by Moses, I refer to as Moses' law just to be clear. This is a definite case of the "weightier matter".

 

[Open Heart]

I'd been looking forward to your response to Open Heart's question - I thought 'sanctification' would've been an interesting topic. Maybe start another thread?

go for it. I'll participate.

 

[Open Heart]

I think the statute laws are written on parchment. Laws referring to circumcision are found there. When I say God's Law, I am referring to the TEN written in stone and to be written in the hearts of man. The laws that are written by Moses, I refer to as Moses' law just to be clear. This is a definite case of the "weightier matter".

Interesting. I tend to refer to all the Torah as God's laws since God is the one who gave them to Moses. Calling them Moses' laws are fine too, since he was the intermediary.

I tend to think that "Loving your neighbor as yourself" is more important than "Thou shalt not steal," even though it is through Moses, because it is the principle behind thou shalt not steal. Which is why Jesus said it is the second greatest commandment.

 

[visionary]

Interesting. I tend to refer to all the Torah as God's laws since God is the one who gave them to Moses. Calling them Moses' laws are fine too, since he was the intermediary.

I tend to think that "Loving your neighbor as yourself" is more important than "Thou shalt not steal," even though it is through Moses, because it is the principle behind thou shalt not steal. Which is why Jesus said it is the second greatest commandment.

The last 6 of the 10 are all about "loving your neighbor" and in those last 6 you will find "thou shalt not steal", so I could not pull them apart and say one is more important.

 

[Open Heart]

The last 6 of the 10 are all about "loving your neighbor" and in those last 6 you will find "thou shalt not steal", so I could not pull them apart and say one is more important.

You missed the point.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Note: A Jewish women is physically uncircumcised.

Doesn't this depend on your point of view, and your definition of circumcision? For a Jewish woman is also not uncircumcised (neither question really makes sense applied to females). From this frame of view, a Jewish woman could be classified as circumcised. Jewish females were included in the covenant, and only Jewish males cut off if uncircumcised after the eighth day.

 

[Randy777]

Yes and NO. You can't take the Jew out of Yeshua, nor can the Holy Spirit. If 9 out of 10 works for the spirit that leads you, then you are not fully His.

Jesus was before Abraham was born.
My outlook in regard to the law is in the context of what is sin that leads to death not for obtaining righteousness. That to me is not by the law as there are those who do so yet reject Jesus.
And I stated like Paul I still see all the law as law. But not all law as binding.
And in regard to the Sabbath absolutely no work or chores even cooking meals was not permitted. Meals had to be prepared in advance. I don't keep such a day and never have. Nor will I start doing so. Unlike the first believers I assume they had done so their whole lives. Its not accept Christ now start keeping the sabbath. I don't see the sabbath as binding for Christians. And certainly not a means of obtaining righteousness. If it were binding then anyone who doesn't continue to keep the sabbath would be one who continues to sin.
However the do nots -theft, murder, adultery, false witness, sexual immorality and the do's -honoring your father and mother are more universal to mankind apart from Judaism.
And since Christ Jesus is the only way to the Father that takes care of idol worship or worshipping false Gods. For in Christ one is not doing so and is loving God and in so is loved by God.

God put Hs Spirit in us that we might not sin against Him. He writes His covenant on our hearts by that Spirit. A new creation is made with the believer.

 

[BukiRob]

And keep the law Moses was also discussed. Grace through faith in Jesus won the day. - thank God!

After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are...

Quoting Acts 15 without understanding the context is error.

Acts 15:1 makes clear that the entire debate is WHO CAN BE SAVED and NOT the ending of Torah which is what the gentile led church teaches.

 

[Randy777]

Quoting Acts 15 without understanding the context is error.

Acts 15:1 makes clear that the entire debate is WHO CAN BE SAVED and NOT the ending of Torah which is what the gentile led church teaches.

Do to forum rules I am limited here. The original question was on circumcision and that was addressed in acts 15.
Lets leave it at that for peace sake.
Randy

 

[BukiRob]

So what Law is it that God will write on the hearts in the New?

Hebrews 8:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel

and with the house of Judah,

9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers

on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

For they did not continue in my covenant,

and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel

after those days, declares the Lord:

I will put my laws into their minds,

and write them on their hearts,

and I will be their God,​

This is a quote from Jerimiah. The new covenant is the Torah written on the heart on in the mind...

Far, FAR too many simply ignore the Master's words: DO NOT THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH TORAH!

 

[BukiRob]

Do to forum rules I am limited here. The original question was on circumcision and that was addressed in acts 15.
Lets leave it at that for peace sake.
Randy

And again, IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND Acts 15 YOU WILL NOT UNDERSTAND the admonition of Circumcision!!!