Messianics who preach circumcision

[ralliann]

This is what is retained:Kind of covers false Gods and idol worship don't you think?
Jesus answered,

Yes, I think so. Many pagans practiced sexual immorality in their worship. Child sacrifice etc.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Even those who keep the law if they reject Jesus they have nothing.
From what I read Israel had a problem keeping the law and the curses of the law were about to overtake them.

I agree. My read is a little different however. There seems me, they suffer the curses and do not escape them apart from Messiah. So I see it more of an escape from the wrath which is prophesied (punishment) foretold in the law. John's baptism seems to concern this very thing. John was preaching salvation from the wrath which was coming. Just like the prophets of old did.
Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
The remnant escaped it.
So, I am not sure they have nothing. I think the promises still remain, but the law requires/prophesied wrath first. And salvation/forgiveness of sin was the way of escape.
Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

But the law says...or prophecies concerning the punishment of their sin. And concerning the covenant made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (circumcision)

Lev 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

It seems to me a matter of timing in the law. The time of the Gentiles, and time of the Jews. So as long as the circumcision remains under law, these things times continue as well. What I mean is this
Deut 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

God remained faithful to His promises and gave victory over disobedience of the law He gave through Jesus as He found fault with the peoples hearts and so He renewed His covenant and made Jesus the new terms and conditions for entrance.
John 11:50
You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish."

We are not free to sin and Paul found a great deal of sin among the pagan nations. But by the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord many repented and came to the faith in Jesus just as we have.

I disagree with a renewal of covenant, because...…….
I think God is faithful to perform his promises made to Abraham as he always has.
The Passover is a memorial sacrifice and the feast of unleavened bread a memorial to the fulfillment of the promises made to their fathers. So no renewal need be, as those promises never grow old or become obsolete.
In the fulfilment of promise in Christ we all enter into the promises made to our father Abraham.
We are to keep the festival of that in memorial as well.
We all also escape the wrath which the law prophesied against both Jew and Gentile as well.

 

[AbbaLove]

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality

So, the following is Randy's own list having decided that Christianity should remove the 4th Commandment and that the 10th Commandment was "added by the Apostles with the approval from the Holy Spirit".

You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality​

The Law does not sanctify or lead to Salvation, that is the work of Yeshua/Jesus. I do not think you will find many (though there are some, but not on these forums) MJ that would think otherwise.

It sounds like Randy777 believes this list was just as valid for the non-Jewish Greek "Christians" at Antioch. So, when he says the 10th Commandment was "added by the Apostles with the approval from the Holy Spirit" he may be referring to verses 20 and 29 in Acts 15. One of the four stipulations to the non-Jewish Greek Believers by the Jerusalem Council was to "abstain from fornication" (sexual immorality).

In your opinion is Randy777s list valid for the "Christian" church having been approved by the Holy Spirit? If not please clarify whether or not Randy777 is permitted to present what he believes is a valid list (his "Christian list") of the Ten Commandments in this MJ Forum?

Thank You.

 

[tampasteve]

​

In your opinion is Randy777s list valid for the "Christian" church having been approved by the Holy Spirit? If not please clarify whether or not Randy777 is permitted to present what he believes is a valid list (his "Christian list") of the Ten Commandments in this MJ Forum?

Thank You.

As a trainee I am not allowed to make direct statements to users about what may be a violation. I can, and have, post forum rules and reminders. If you believe any post is in violation of a particular forum rule or SOP simply report the post and it can be handled in the appropriate manner, which can take some time.

 

[AbbaLove]

Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

What do you mean by an amended covenant?

Effectively the Torah [Hebrew] Covenant was amended by G-d to include the gentile nations as evident in the Book of Acts. However, for the gentile nations, beginning at Antioch, it was seen as a New Covenant in that Israel had rejected their Messiah. However, for Messianic Jews then and now the change was/is seen as more of an amended Covenant that was met with some reservation by Messianic Judaism being immersed in their century's old well-established traditions of Jewish legalism.

Acts 15:7-11
7 At the meeting, after a long discussion, Peter stood and addressed them as follows: “Brothers, you all know that God chose me from among you some time ago to preach to the Gentiles so that they could hear the Good News and believe.
8 God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith.
10 So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers[a] with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear?
[a] 15:10 Greek disciples
11 We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.”​

Matthew 11:29-30
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”​

The Covenant had been corrupted by man-made legalism that became a burdensome yoke that needed to be amended. The only way it could be amended was by the indwelling presence and empowerment of His Holy Spirit in every born again Believer, Jew and non-Jew.

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.
17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in His sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as the Tanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” (Habakkuk 2:4; Proverbs 3:5-6)​

 

[ralliann]

​

Effectively the Torah [Hebrew] Covenant was amended by G-d to include the gentile nations as evident in the Book of Acts. However, for the gentile nations, beginning at Antioch, it was seen as a New Covenant in that Israel had rejected their Messiah. However, for Messianic Jews then and now the change was/is seen as more of an amended Covenant that was met with some reservation by Messianic Judaism being immersed in their century's old well-established traditions of Jewish legalism.

Acts 15:7-11
7 At the meeting, after a long discussion, Peter stood and addressed them as follows: “Brothers, you all know that God chose me from among you some time ago to preach to the Gentiles so that they could hear the Good News and believe.
8 God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith.
10 So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers[a] with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear?
[a] 15:10 Greek disciples
11 We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.”​

Matthew 11:29-30
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”​

The Covenant had been corrupted by man-made legalism that became a burdensome yoke that needed to be amended. The only way it could be amended was by the indwelling presence and empowerment of His Holy Spirit in every born again Believer, Jew and non-Jew.

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.
17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in His sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as the Tanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” (Habakkuk 2:4; Proverbs 3:5-6)​

My read of the scripture is that the covenant is not to be amended.
Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Even the sinai covenant is not to be amended.
De 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Even David had a distinct covenant.
Why would it need to be? The new covenant is based upon the Abrahamic promises which were made in two covenants with Abraham.
Fulfillment, not amendment. God fulfills his promises, he is faithful.

 

[Randy777]

​

So, the following is Randy's own list having decided that Christianity should remove the 4th Commandment and that the 10th Commandment was "added by the Apostles with the approval from the Holy Spirit".

You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality​

It sounds like Randy777 believes this list was just as valid for the non-Jewish Greek "Christians" at Antioch. So, when he says the 10th Commandment was "added by the Apostles with the approval from the Holy Spirit" he may be referring to verses 20 and 29 in Acts 15. One of the four stipulations to the non-Jewish Greek Believers by the Jerusalem Council was to "abstain from fornication" (sexual immorality).

In your opinion is Randy777s list valid for the "Christian" church having been approved by the Holy Spirit? If not please clarify whether or not Randy777 is permitted to present what he believes is a valid list (his "Christian list") of the Ten Commandments in this MJ Forum?

Thank You.

I was referring to acts 15 not me.

 

[Open Heart]

This has got to be the most interesting thread in the forum right now. Keep it up folks.

 

[Randy777]

​

So, the following is Randy's own list having decided that Christianity should remove the 4th Commandment and that the 10th Commandment was "added by the Apostles with the approval from the Holy Spirit".

You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality​

It sounds like Randy777 believes this list was just as valid for the non-Jewish Greek "Christians" at Antioch. So, when he says the 10th Commandment was "added by the Apostles with the approval from the Holy Spirit" he may be referring to verses 20 and 29 in Acts 15. One of the four stipulations to the non-Jewish Greek Believers by the Jerusalem Council was to "abstain from fornication" (sexual immorality).

In your opinion is Randy777s list valid for the "Christian" church having been approved by the Holy Spirit? If not please clarify whether or not Randy777 is permitted to present what he believes is a valid list (his "Christian list") of the Ten Commandments in this MJ Forum?

Thank You.

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality

 

[Open Heart]

My read of the scripture is that the covenant is not to be amended.
Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Even the sinai covenant is not to be amended.
De 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Even David had a distinct covenant.
Why would it need to be? The new covenant is based upon the Abrahamic promises which were made in two covenants with Abraham.
Fulfillment, not amendment. God fulfills his promises, he is faithful.

If I misunderstood anything, let me apologize in advance.

It is not good enough to say the Original Covenant is not amended. It is still ACTIVE.

I would disagree that the New Covenant is based on the previous. Hebrews makes it clear that the old rules are no good with regards to the New Covenant. IOW they are two completely separate covenants. Even their promises are different. The Original Covenant promises the Holy Land. The New Covenant promises heaven and freedom from the bondage of sin.

 

[Open Heart]

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality

This was always part of universal law, even before God gave the commandments at Sinai. He tells Israel not to be as the Nations around them are because it is an abomination. So it is NOT okay for the Nations to act that way. Never has been. Look at Sodom and Gemorrah.

 

[Open Heart]

​

So, the following is Randy's own list having decided that Christianity should remove the 4th Commandment and that the 10th Commandment was "added by the Apostles with the approval from the Holy Spirit".

You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality​

In your opinion is Randy777s list valid for the "Christian" church having been approved by the Holy Spirit?

Yes, these are the nine of the ten commandments that the apostles taught to Gentiles. It is clear also that in Jerusalem the Jews were "zealous for Torah," which would mean they observed Shabbat. I think if someone wants to observe Shabbat, they will very much be blessed, Jew or Gentile.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
Abstain from sexual immorality

Where is sexual immorality defined in the Bible?

 

[Open Heart]

It is a separ

So then where is the New Covenant?

The New Covenant is a separate, superior covenant, and both are active.

 

[Open Heart]

In MJ belief (as well as other scholars) the term "live like a Gentile" is referring to sharing a table with non-Jews, not completely living as a Gentile - it is an idiom of sorts.

Correct. How'd you get so smart?

 

[Open Heart]

^^^This

The Law does not sanctify or lead to Salvation, that is the work of Yeshua/Jesus. I do not think you will find many (though there are some, but not on these forums) MJ that would think otherwise.

tampasteve: what is your idea of sanctification? Because mine is growing closer to God and developing a Christ-mind, and I very definitely use following the Torah as a means towards sanctification. It's a great discipline, no different than, say, becoming a monk and praying round the clock or devoting one's life to the care of the homeless.

 

[Randy777]

Where is sexual immorality defined in the Bible?

It's forbidden 100 different ways from Sunday but coming up with a list is argumentative I'm sure. Orgies, fornication outside of marriage, prostitutes, adultery.

 

[Open Heart]

Zechariah 11:7-11. Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant.

CR, you appear to be on a Spiritual Journey. I respect the integrity of that, so please don't take this as a personal affront. I care about you as a brother, and wish to see you draw nearer and nearer to our Lord and Savior, and I do believe, as I said, in the integrity of the spiritual journey process.

That said, I also believe in everyone in here respecting the SOP, the mods, CF's general rules, etc. We are guests. When I say everyone, I include myself, of course. And it equally includes you. Everyone is on an equal playing field--no one is special. The SOP forbids teaching the revocation of the Old Covenant. Dave has been kind enough to paste the section. Please be so kind as to be an honorable member of the forum.

By the way, I notice you changed your faith identification to Private. I'm not trying to pry, except one thing: are you still Messianic or no? I only ask because I'm sure we are all curious if you are still a member of the forum.

 

[Steve Petersen]

It's forbidden 100 different ways from Sunday but coming up with a list is argumentative I'm sure. Orgies, fornication outside of marriage, prostitutes, adultery.

In the OT, correct?

 

[CherubRam]

CR, you appear to be on a Spiritual Journey. I respect the integrity of that, so please don't take this as a personal affront. I care about you as a brother, and wish to see you draw nearer and nearer to our Lord and Savior, and I do believe, as I said, in the integrity of the spiritual journey process.

That said, I also believe in everyone in here respecting the SOP, the mods, CF's general rules, etc. We are guests. When I say everyone, I include myself, of course. And it equally includes you. Everyone is on an equal playing field--no one is special. The SOP forbids teaching the revocation of the Old Covenant. Dave has been kind enough to paste the section. Please be so kind as to be an honorable member of the forum.

By the way, I notice you changed your faith identification to Private. I'm not trying to pry, except one thing: are you still Messianic or no? I only ask because I'm sure we are all curious if you are still a member of the forum.

My marital status is private. I am a Judaic Christian.

 

[Open Heart]

My marital status is private. I am a Judaic Christian.

Oh, okay, my goof.