Messianics who preach circumcision

[Heber Book List]

How so? I thought we were talking of fulfillment of the law, which was only accomplished by Jesus? Adam was the man who brought sin to the world, Jesus is the one who takes it away, for those who believe on Him.

I note you haven't commented on the first part of my response to you.

No one is arguing that Yeshua takes away the sin of the world - how that is acheived by him is a separete subject.

 

[Steve Petersen]

So how does Jesus' fulfillment of the law make it void, or are you making another point?

I think you misunderstand the use of 'fulfill.' His keeping of the commandments UPHOLDS the Law and elevates it.

Isaiah 42:21 The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness' sake, to magnify his law and make it glorious.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

I think you misunderstand the use of 'fulfill.' His keeping of the commandments UPHOLDS the Law and elevates it.

So then where is the New Covenant?

 

[Steve Petersen]

So then where is the New Covenant?

It was initiated at his death but is not here in its full scale. See Jeremiah 31. God forgives sin and writes his laws on the heart. This is the new covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

 

[Randy777]

"After all these years i am not going to set aside all
work and observe the sabbath unless Jesus tells me."

What is the 4th commandment in your bible?
In mine, it is "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy."

What Did Paul Really Say in Colossians 2 verse 16?

Keeping the sabbath is a absence of all work in regard to the law not going to church. I have not asked anyone who considers that day Holy to stop doing so. What I do state is its not needed for salvation. And its not my custom or how I was raised and after all these years with relationship with Jesus I am not going to add it as a means to keep in Gods love unless Jesus informs me my understanding is wrong. That is it is required to be kept in order to remain faithful to Him. I read col 2 vs 16 and what I read is don't let anyone judge you about sabbaths or a sabbath day they were a shadow of things that were to come and the reality is found in Christ. The condition God set in the forgiveness of sin is to believe in the One He sent not a absence of all work one a week. As there all those who keep the sabbath but reject Jesus. Not meaning you.

 

[ralliann]

These verses have no impact on anything I said. A new priesthood is set up that is different, that has a new set of rules. It doesn't abrogate the old priesthood. Why are you arguing that Torah is set aside?

What is this?
Speaking of the carnal command concerning the order of Aaron.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling <115> of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
115 ἀθέτησις athetesis ath-et’-ay-sis
from 114; n f; TDNT-8:158,1176; {See TDNT 791}
AV-disannulling 1, to put away + 1519 1; 2
1) abolition, disannulling, put away, rejection

 

[Steve Petersen]

Keeping the sabbath is a absence of all work in regard to the law not going to church. I have not asked anyone who considers that day Holy to stop doing so. What I do state is its not needed for salvation.

That's great. No one here is saying that it is.

I read col 2 vs 16 and what I read is don't let anyone judge you about sabbaths or a sabbath day they were a shadow of things that were to come and the reality is found in Christ.

As I pointed out earlier, the Greek is not in the past tense here, but the present tense: they ARE shadows of coming things.

What about the Apostles who kept Sabbath AND believed in Jesus. They didn't see a contradiction or negation of salvation.

 

[Randy777]

That's great. No one here is saying that it is.



As I pointed out earlier, the Greek is not in the past tense here, but the present tense: they ARE shadows of coming things.

What about the Apostles who kept Sabbath AND believed in Jesus. They didn't see a contradiction or negation of salvation.

That's how the Apostles were raised keeping the sabbath. I wasn't raised keeping the sabbath in regard to the law. There are those who keep the sabbath yet reject Jesus. Of what value then is it as a means to salvation?
I just stated that I wasn't going to add keeping that day as a means to remain faithful to Jesus not that those who keep that day are not faithful to Jesus.

I am not sure all of what the apostles kept either after coming to Jesus by faith.
As is written:
When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

 

[chunkofcoal]

I responded to your response to my post.
Ok, my bad
I think the Spirit of Christ on our hearts is the sign of a covenant between Jews, gentiles, males,females AND God.
This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

Of what value is there if "you will have no other Gods before me" is kept but Christ is rejected. Sanctification is by faith in Jesus not keeping the commandment as I am sure you would agree.

I quoted Visionary's post. It's okay Randy777 - things can get muddled in a passionate, fast moving thread.

I don't think (most?) MJ's are trying to be sanctified by the Law and I believe they understand that sanctification is by faith in Jesus, but they keep the Law, in the way they understand it, and how they are able, because of love and obedience to God.

It is written:
2Ti 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[tampasteve]

That's how the Apostles were raised keeping the sabbath. I wasn't raised keeping the sabbath in regard to the law. There are those who keep the sabbath yet reject Jesus. Of what value then is it as a means to salvation?
I just stated that I wasn't going to add keeping that day as a means to remain faithful to Jesus not that those who keep that day are not faithful to Jesus.

Keeping the Law does not have to be about salvation, many sages would say it never was about salvation; it is about following what God told us to do. The extent of the Law varies by being Jewish or not.

I am not sure all of what the apostles kept either after coming to Jesus by faith.
As is written:
When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

In MJ belief (as well as other scholars) the term "live like a Gentile" is referring to sharing a table with non-Jews, not completely living as a Gentile - it is an idiom of sorts. Peter was one of the Apostles advocating a separation of Jewish and non-Jewish believers at the time, remember this is before the Council in Jerusalem. Paul is pointing out that even Peter does not keep this in reality. Paul was a/the major proponent of not having a division of Jewish and non-Jewish believers in the Church.

 

[tampasteve]

I don't think (most?) MJ's are trying to be sanctified by the Law and I believe they understand that sanctification is by faith in Jesus, but they keep the Law, in the way they understand it, and how they are able, because of love and obedience to God.

^^^This

The Law does not sanctify or lead to Salvation, that is the work of Yeshua/Jesus. I do not think you will find many (though there are some, but not on these forums) MJ that would think otherwise.

 

[Randy777]

But the nations which were in the land before them were judged by things apart from the law. mainly sexual immorality.
Le 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Le 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
Le 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled

So, how would it be thought an addition by the Apostles? Rather it seems to be things retained which were prior to the law, and universal in that they were maintained in the law, and beyond

This is what is retained:Kind of covers false Gods and idol worship don't you think?
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Even those who keep the law if they reject Jesus they have nothing.
From what I read Israel had a problem keeping the law and the curses of the law were about to overtake them.
God remained faithful to His promises and gave victory over disobedience of the law He gave through Jesus as He found fault with the peoples hearts and so He renewed His covenant and made Jesus the new terms and conditions for entrance.
John 11:50
You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish."

We are not free to sin and Paul found a great deal of sin among the pagan nations. But by the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord many repented and came to the faith in Jesus just as we have.

 

[tampasteve]

This thread already received one cleanup earlier for similar issues. I would like to remind all of us, especially visitors to the faith group of the below:

MOD HAT ON
Let us all keep the rules of this group in mind:

• No replacement theology. No posts teaching or debating that the Church/Christians have replaced Israel or the Jewish people.
• Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.
• Congregational Rules: Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

And general rules:

• Please treat all members with respect and courtesy through civil dialogue.
• Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[CherubRam]

Keeping the sabbath is a absence of all work in regard to the law not going to church. I have not asked anyone who considers that day Holy to stop doing so. What I do state is its not needed for salvation. And its not my custom or how I was raised and after all these years with relationship with Jesus I am not going to add it as a means to keep in Gods love unless Jesus informs me my understanding is wrong. That is it is required to be kept in order to remain faithful to Him. I read col 2 vs 16 and what I read is don't let anyone judge you about sabbaths or a sabbath day they were a shadow of things that were to come and the reality is found in Christ. The condition God set in the forgiveness of sin is to believe in the One He sent not a absence of all work one a week. As there all those who keep the sabbath but reject Jesus. Not meaning you.

The Old Covenant involved a priesthood, circumcision, festivals, and sacrifices.



"and whatever other command there may be"

Romans 13:9
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[Randy777]

The Old Covenant involved a priesthood, circumcision, festivals, and sacrifices.



"and whatever other command there may be"

Romans 13:9
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

I think Romans 13:9 is in line that Jesus is not a license to continue to sin unlike the sabbath ordinance. or religious celebrations. Morality issues vs religious ordinances in regard to celebrations and scarifies.
Its clear to me Paul saw all the law as law as I do. And considered the law in judgments made.

Just if you asked me in light of Christ is the death penalty lawful for capital murder.
I would answer by the governing authorities "yes" on the testimony of two or more witnesses. Personal revenge "no".
I am considering the law in my judgment.
Is it mandatory for our nation. I would answer "no"
Does the penalty of a crime cause a trial to be unfair. I would answer "no"

So I see the law as law.

Needless to state if you preach sanctification is through faith in Jesus not works of the law you are teaching the correct gospel message.

 

[Randy777]

The Old Covenant was revoked.

Zechariah 11:7-11. Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant.


Zechariah 11
7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]


The Sanhedrin (Hebrew and Aramaic: סנהדרין; Greek: Συνέδριον, synedrion, "sitting together," hence "assembly" or "council") was an assembly of twenty-three or seventy-one rabbis appointed to sit as a tribunal in every city in the ancient Land of Israel.


The Sadducees were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD.


The Pharisee were founded in 167 BC, they were a ("separatist") party that emerged largely out of a group of scribes and sages. Their name comes from the Hebrew and Aramaic parush or parushi, which means "one who is separated.


Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducees, and Pharisees.

Yes we believe Jesus introduced a renewed covenant by His blood which continues to fulfill or forfills Gods promises to Abraham and David. As our religion is pro Zion.

 

[Open Heart]

What is this?
Speaking of the carnal command concerning the order of Aaron.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling <115> of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
115 ἀθέτησις athetesis ath-et’-ay-sis
from 114; n f; TDNT-8:158,1176; {See TDNT 791}
AV-disannulling 1, to put away + 1519 1; 2
1) abolition, disannulling, put away, rejection

It simply mesns it doesnt apply as regards the NEW covenant. It does not mean it doesnt apply to the Old Covenant

 

[Randy777]

Let me recap my stance concerning the sabbath.
Is it lawful for one to keep the sabbath? YES
Is it mandatory for those who proclaim faith in Jesus to keep the sabbath per the written law? NO
If one KEEPS the sabbath per the law yet rejects Jesus do they have eternal life? NO
If one DOESN'T keep the sabbath per the written law yet accepts Jesus by faith do they have eternal life? YES

 

[Heber Book List]

Our debates about law vs trust - this sums it all up, quite nicely! ​

Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever-spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning
Running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping
Past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind

Like a tunnel that you follow
To a tunnel of its own
Down a hollow to a cavern
Where the sun has never shone
Like a door that keeps revolving
In a half-forgotten dream
Or the ripples from a pebble
Someone tosses in a stream
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping
Past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind



(Songwriter: Alan Bergman)

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Let me recap my stance concerning the sabbath.
Is it lawful for one to keep the sabbath? YES
Is it mandatory for those who proclaim faith in Jesus to keep the sabbath per the written law? NO
If one KEEPS the sabbath per the law yet rejects Jesus do they have eternal life? NO
If one DOESN'T keep the sabbath per the written law yet accepts Jesus by faith do they have eternal life? YES

I can agree with circumcision for any reason but for obtaining or counting toward righteousness with God.