GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

[LoveGodsWord]

The Bible is to be read and understood in the language one understands, for instance:

1 Corinthians 14:19 KJB - Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Acts 2:6 KJB - Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Acts 2:8 KJB - And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Acts 22:1 KJB - Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.

Acts 22:2 KJB - (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)

Acts 26:14 KJB - And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.​

If I were to take several pictures of mss, papyri, codice, palimpsest, etc and present a screenshot fragment on the screen [in several languages], I seriously doubt that anyone on this board would be able to tell me what languages they were in, let alone read them [even if one of them was in koine Greek]. Not even the Greeks today in general [scholars, etc, excepted] read and understand Koine Greek, as it is at least two levels of language removed.

The Bible shows how we are to study it:

Isaiah 28:10 KJB - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

1 Corinthians 2:13 KJB - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.​

etc.

For instance, the brothers of Joseph, didn't have to understand the Egyptian language that Joseph spake, but had to trust in the integrity of the translation thereof [thus think about what it would mean to reject the interpretation for the original, when a person cannot speak/understand that original language]:

Genesis 42:23 KJB - And they knew not that Joseph understood them; for he spake unto them by an interpreter.
​

We see this example all throughout the scripture [KJB], in practical use, in dreams/visions/prophecies [God is the interpreter, not we ourselves], and even in persons themselves:

interpreter: Genesis 40:8, 42:23; Job 33:23; 1 Corinthians 14:28

interpretation/s: Genesis 40:5,8,12,16,18, 41:11; Judges 7:15; Proverbs 1:6; Ecclesiastes 8:1; Daniel 2:4,5,6,7,9,16,24,25,26,30,36,45, 4:6,7,9,18,19,24, 5:7,8,12,15,16,17,26, 7:16; John 1:42, 9:7; Acts 9:36, 13:8; 1 Corinthians 12:10, 14:26; Hebrews 7:2; 2 Peter 1:20

translate/ed/ion: 2 Samuel 3:10; Colossians 1:13; Hebrews 11:5
​

People like to play the Greek and Hebrew game [for varied reasons]. I dislike doing so, though I can cite from Hebrew/Koine Greek [see below], Latin, etc when needful for those that refuse to read plain English, their mother tongue. Here is an example of that 'game' [I do not espouse all of the religious/political views of this presenter]:

"aorist" has an entire range, from past [several ways], to present [several] to future [citations upon request]. This is why interlinears are basically useless, as they ignore the context, even of the very next word sitting by any given word being considered therein. Case in point Revelation 17:10 KJB. I had a pastor swear to me [and get angry with me] that the text ought to read [as they were looking at an interlinear] in the present [future] tense [ie "the five fall"], rather than what it says [KJB, "five are fallen"], and it didn't matter to this pastor that I presented copious amounts of evidence, and historical translation by practically all of the reformation, etc, proving the pastor [and the interlinear] incorrect [thy believed in the 8 last pope heresy]. This is the danger of going to the Koine Greek [and interlinears], when one does not understand the language. It can also lead to relying upopn man, rather than God. God's word is written in such a way as it translated/inteprets itself. It has built in rules [kinda like DNA, and RNA], alphabet, language, math tables, etc.

Now, Revelation 14:6-7 says this in the KJB, the plain preserved word of God in English:

Revelation 14:6 KJB - And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Revelation 14:7 KJB - Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.​

If we cannot agree on the plain English before us, how shall we fair any better in a foreign language to most on this board? Case in point:



Someone one might ask, what about the 'original'? There are no extant 'original' mss, etc around. What about the extant mss, etc we do have? Which ones, I will ask, and why was a particular one chosen over another, and what was the standard of criteria for so doing, and what was that the standard of measurement, by what standard was that measurement measured, etc?

If one is speaking about the GNT TR [Greek New Testament based upon 'Textus Receptus' [of the KJB]], then it reads:

Revelation 14:6 GNT TR - και ειδον αλλον αγγελον πετωμενον εν μεσουρανηματι εχοντα ευαγγελιον αιωνιον ευαγγελισαι τους κατοικουντας επι της γης και παν εθνος και φυλην και γλωσσαν και λαον

Revelation 14:6 GNT TR with Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes and Strong's Numbering - καιG2532 CONJ ειδονG3708 V-2AAI-1S αλλονG243 A-ASM αγγελονG32 N-ASM πετωμενονG4072 V-PNP-ASM ενG1722 PREP μεσουρανηματιG3321 N-DSN εχονταG2192 V-PAP-ASM ευαγγελιονG2098 N-ASN αιωνιονG166 A-ASN ευαγγελισαιG2097 V-AAN τουςG3588 T-APM κατοικουνταςG2730 V-PAP-APM επιG1909 PREP τηςG3588 T-GSF γηςG1093 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ πανG3956 A-ASN εθνοςG1484 N-ASN καιG2532 CONJ φυληνG5443 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ γλωσσανG1100 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ λαονG2992 N-ASM​

Revelation 14:7 GNT TR - λεγοντα εν φωνη μεγαλη φοβηθητε τον θεον και δοτε αυτω δοξαν οτι ηλθεν η ωρα της κρισεως αυτου και προσκυνησατε τω ποιησαντι τον ουρανον και την γην και την θαλασσαν και πηγας υδατων

Revelation 14:7 GNT TR with Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes and Strong's Numbering - λεγονταG3004 V-PAP-ASM ενG1722 PREP φωνηG5456 N-DSF μεγαληG3173 A-DSF φοβηθητεG5399 V-AOM-2P τονG3588 T-ASM θεονG2316 N-ASM καιG2532 CONJ δοτεG1325 V-2AAM-2P αυτωG846 P-DSM δοξανG1391 N-ASF οτιG3754 CONJ ηλθενG2064 V-2AAI-3S ηG3588 T-NSF ωραG5610 N-NSF τηςG3588 T-GSF κρισεωςG2920 N-GSF αυτουG846 P-GSM καιG2532 CONJ προσκυνησατεG4352 V-AAM-2P τωG3588 T-DSM ποιησαντιG4160 V-AAP-DSM τονG3588 T-ASM ουρανονG3772 N-ASM καιG2532 CONJ τηνG3588 T-ASF γηνG1093 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ | | τηνG3588 T-ASF | θαλασσανG2281 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ πηγαςG4077 N-APF υδατωνG5204 N-GPN​

Doesn't that make it all clearer to those who cannot read it? Of course not.

To answer a question:

In the GNT-TR of Revelation 14:7, the word "ηλθεν", "elthen" is a Verb, Second Aorist, Active, Indicative, Third Person, Singular. That was so helpful, wasn't it? All that time, where did it go?, when if we just believed Psalms 12:6-7 KJB, etc, in that God preserved His word for us today, in the common language, even in English, we wouldn't have to do all this run around to understand the word "is" in it's context, and so compare the spiritual word of God with itself, and prayerfully considering, and asking God for light and guidance and truth. God will explain His own word, since it originates with Him.

The "is" becomes important when we understand the timeframe of the context of that "is". The "is" of the Judgment [over God's very Ten Commandments, see vs 7,12] spoken of takes places while the Everlasting Gospel is going into all the earth, and before the close of probation [ie, while the Gospel is still offered]. The connection of Revelation 10:7 KJB is indeed important, since it shows the timeframe to come, in which there is no more mercy being offered.

Hi T7C, little busy today to do much posting but I like this post very much.

Sometimes we forget that the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. The context of the scriptures are important but at the end of the day it does not matter how much of a scholar one is you cannot know God's ways as they are higher then the heavens if you seek it you will not find it in your own power. God's truth is revealed to babes which means anyone who seeks it through God as it must be revealed by God through his Spirit.

It was the scholars and the wise in Jesus day the killed Jesus and persecuted the saints. This is the way it has been all through time. If God is not your teacher you will never know his ways as they are higher then our ways.

Sometimes we forget that we need to have God as our guide and teacher.

MATTHEW 11:25-27 [25], At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them to babes. [26], Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in your sight. [27], All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

1 CORINTHIANS 2:14 [14] But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

JOHN 14:26 [26], But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

JOHN 7:17 [17], If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 16:13 [13], However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

the reason why many scholars in Jesus day crufied him was that they sort to find God's truth through their own efforts and by their own wisdom and understanding they knew not God.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:19-21 [19], For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. [20], Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? [21], For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You wont find God's truth by seeking it through men. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned and taught by God to those who seek God for it and continue in his WORD. This is also part of the NEW COVENANT promise..

HEBREWS 8:11 [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

...............

Thanks T7C and well written.

 

[The7thColporteur]

Hi T7C, little busy today to do much posting but I like this post very much.

Sometimes we forget that the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. The context of the scriptures are important but at the end of the day it does not matter how much of a scholar one is you cannot know God's ways as they are higher then the heavens if you seek it you will not find it in your own power. God's truth is revealed to babes which means anyone who seeks it through God as it must be revealed by God through his Spirit.

It was the scholars and the wise in Jesus day the killed Jesus and persecuted the saints. This is the way it has been all through time. If God is not your teacher you will never know his ways as they are higher then our ways.

Sometimes we forget that we need to have God as our guide and teacher.

MATTHEW 11:25-27 [25], At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them to babes. [26], Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in your sight. [27], All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

1 CORINTHIANS 2:14 [14] But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

JOHN 14:26 [26], But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

JOHN 7:17 [17], If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 16:13 [13], However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

the reason why many scholars in Jesus day crufied him was that they sort to find God's truth through their own efforts and by their own wisdom and understanding they knew not God.

1 CORINTIANS 1:19-21 [19], For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. [20], Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? [21], For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You wont find God's truth by seeking it through men. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned and taught by God to those who seek God for it and continue in his WORD. This is also part of the NEW COVENANT promise..

HEBREWS 8:11 [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

...............

Thanks T7C and well written.

Oh, sure, you are welcome brother. It could be summed up in brief:

1 Corinthians 1:22 KJB - For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1 Corinthians 1:23 KJB - But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;​

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Oh, sure, you are welcome brother. It could be summed up in brief:

1 Corinthians 1:22 KJB - For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1 Corinthians 1:23 KJB - But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;​

Yep I was going to add those into v19-21 I quoted above but left them out to abreviate. Thanks nicely said

 

[bugkiller]

On this point I think there may be more to the picture.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. KJV

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. ESV

The word judgment can also be translated as "condemnation", as we see in the KJV.

This seems to make sense of all the verses. For instance, Paul writes:

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

He includes himself, as he says "we" must appear.

We are not condemned, as we have crossed from death to life. But we do apparently appear.

A similar text:
Romans 14:10 For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written:
“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

This also fits the sheep and goats.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

Bottom line is we passed the judgment and have eternal life. The Christian does not attend the same judgment as the wicked. People can argue over the things that do not matter all they want. I'm a bottom line type.

On revisiting your post Rom 14:10-11 Is that the judgment the Christian goes to? I ask because I have complied with v 11.

bugkiller

 

[tall73]

The Bible is to be read and understood in the language one understands, .

So there goes the KJV, as most do not understand it today.

But you insist on using it. And now you insist that the TR, which I quoted for you, and the KJB was based on is a problem for you. Except that you acknowledge it actually is an Aorist.

And unlike the example you gave you I did not insist on it being what the interlinear said but pointed out the evidence in the text.

So your example was the opposite of that.

And earlier when I quoted two Christians from the time period who fluently wrote in Greek, in regards to the handwriting in ordinances LGW rejected that as well, quoting to me--modern scholars instead.

Why not just use your real measure? If Ellen White doesn't say it, then it isn't true.

 

[bugkiller]

I can accept your presentation. My real point is we have already been found not guilty and passed the judgment without condemnation having eternal life.

The contents of Romans 14:10 has been met by the Christian.

I think you typoed. It should be v 11 I think.

bugkiller

 

[tall73]

The context of the scriptures are important but at the end of the day it does not matter how much of a scholar one is you cannot know God's ways as they are higher then the heavens if you seek it you will not find it in your own power.

So when you quote scholars, you are doing so as a babe. When I quote people of the time, I am....a scholar?

When I post the Greek, or the context, that is just trying to understand it from a worldly perspective.

I think we know what is going on here.

Ellen White ignored the fact that Daniel 7 was a judgment regarding nations and powers and delivering the saints, not examining them.

Ellen White ignored that the cleansing in Daniel 8 was not from the Day of Atonement, but from a defiling little horn power.

The problem is not that we are experts, the problem is it doesn't take an expert to see the chapters are not talking about what Ellen White says they are.

So you have to say context doesn't matter.

 

[bugkiller]

I would submit that Daniel 7 does not focus on any individual judgment of the saints.

The vision begins with a description of the beasts.

These are interpreted later in the chapter:

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

The four beasts are generally interpreted by Adventists as:

Babylon
Medo-Persia
Greece (Macedonian)
Rome

The fourth beast had ten hours. Three were plucked, and the little horn then becomes the focus.

Of course, A.T. Jones and Uriah Smith debated the exact identity of some of the ten horns. But generally the little horn is agreed upon (except for some recent voices speaking of Islam), to be the papacy, and its system.

After the beasts, ten horns, three plucked up, and little horn are described, the judgment scene is pictured.

Nothing about the context to this point deals with individual Christians, but with powers, kingdoms, etc.

Here is the judgment scene:

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Books in other texts are related to records of individuals actions, and names in the book of life.

However, God also judges nations, as is clear from Daniel itself, from the prophets, etc. Books indicate records, but this may include records regarding the nations. God catalogues wrongs of various nations at times, such as in Amos 1:

11 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever:
12 But I will send a fire upon Teman, which shall devour the palaces of Bozrah.
13 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of the children of Ammon, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have ripped up the women with child of Gilead, that they might enlarge their border:

Edom was judged because of attacking relatives. The Ammonites were punished for the egregious crime that all would recognize as wrong of ripping open a pregnant woman's womb.

Israel was punished for specific violations of the covenant. God judged them by what He had revealed to them:

6 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;

7 That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor, and turn aside the way of the meek: and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name:

8 And they lay themselves down upon clothes laid to pledge by every altar, and they drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.


The focus of the judgment in Daniel 7 is clear from the actions it carries out:


11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The fourth beast was slain. The others had their dominion stripped.

These are actions dealing with nations, not primarily individuals.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

In the explanation of the vision the ten horns are ten kings from a kingdom.

The saints here are identified corporately, as a group. There is no question as to their identity. There is no scrutiny individually of the saints here. They are being worn out by the little horn. Judgment is given to them, and as a result their adversary is destroyed. They are delivered by the judge, similar to the situation of the widow with the unjust judge who wanted justice against her adversary.


26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Also, the particulars of this judgment do not meet the criteria that Ellen White stipulates for the investigative judgment.

So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. Great Controversy, chapter 28

Moreover there is no scrutiny mentioned to define who is the little horn. Adventists often indicate the papacy does profess to be a follower of God. True, but there is no indication of confusion about who is who here. And Babylon, Media, Persia, and Rome were not professed followers of God. Yet this court removes the dominion of three and slays the fourth.

Now this doesn't remove the possibility of a pre-advent judgment on the individual records of the saints. But it does not picture it either.

I grew up with all the newspaper theology there was. Largely I bought it hook line and sinker. This was before Islam became a factor. Looking at what they do I think they fit the prophecy much better than the RCC. They do seem to be taking a much different approach in the US. By 2035 they will be the majority voting population. They will get they way by voting.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I think this text reveals an important point.

Romans 14:10 For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written:
“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.


We are said to give an account, kneel, confess. These do not happen at the IJ, and could not happen there, as we are not present, and wouldn't even know our name was being reviewed at that time. This could only happen when we are in the presence of God.

And if we confess and bow the knee in His presence, what is the need for a protracted investigation? Any interested angels could hear the confession.

To be effective in regard to eternal life this must be done prior to the demise of the body.

You do make a good point.
bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I noticed, and as such, your 'differently', is 'incorrectly'.

Opinion is not worth much.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I am going to make a comment [and will probably be taken wrongly], but interlinears are basically useless.

Especially when you can not get around them.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

There is some great entertainment here at CF.

bugkiller

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So when you quote scholars, you are doing so as a babe. When I quote people of the time, I am....a scholar?

Nope not really. That was not the point to my post at all. Only providing the point that you cannot know God as a scholar if you are not led and taught by His Spirt. None of us can tall. The truth of God's WORD is only revealed as we all become babes and seek Jesus for it through his WORD. Please do not misunderstand my comments as directed towards you as they were not. It was the scholars of the day that put Jesus to death and persected the Saints. I do not like to use man made references. I think I stated this earlier and prefer God's WORD alone. But sometimes I will use them if I think others may benefit.

When I post the Greek, or the context, that is just trying to understand it from a worldly perspective.

Not at all there is nothing wrong with using the GREEK or HEBREW but I think T7C made some good points in relation to being able to understand the true meaning if context is not considered around the scripture in question.

I think we know what is going on here. Ellen White ignored the fact that Daniel 7 was a judgment regarding nations and powers and delivering the saints, not examining them. Ellen White ignored that the cleansing in Daniel 8 was not from the Day of Atonement, but from a defiling little horn power. The problem is not that we are experts, the problem is it doesn't take an expert to see the chapters are not talking about what Ellen White says they are. So you have to say context doesn't matter.

Well this does not need to be answered here. Let's talk scripture and look at your other post. It is missing context.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I would submit that Daniel 7 does not focus on any individual judgment of the saints.

Hello tall, yes there is a lot of truth in what you have posted here (most of the post; could not add all of it as it would not fit).

Although the judgement of Daniel 7 as only in reference to the judgement of the 4 beasts I think is a mistake as it does not really apply full context and scripture order as shown in Daniel 7:9.

The words “cast down” is from a single Aramaic word “remah’” meaning to “to place” or “set up” as well as “to throw” [25] down pillows or set up chairs to be seated upon. So, here, because “the Ancient of days” (who is God the Father) also “did sit,” Daniel was witnessing the convening of a judgment scene.

Therefore, the four earthly beasts Daniel just described in verses 1-8 comprise the context of this heavenly judgment scene. And, because the four beasts arose sequentially, one after another, it stands to reason that the convening of this judgment took place in heaven sometime after the other “little horn” began to speak “great things.” Note v 9 now which is AFTER the thrones were cast down...

DANIEL 7:9 [9], I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

What Daniel is seeing now is something taking place AFTER the thrones (Beasts) where cast down and AFTER the establishment of the "Little Horn" that was speaking great things.

The same sequence of events is then repeated and further explained by the angel in v16-27.

I am not much for the commentaries as mentioned earlier but thought this interesting.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Until the Ancient of days came - Notes, Daniel 7:9. That is, this was to occur after the horn grew to its full size, and after the war was made with the saints, and they had been overcome. It does not affirm that this would occur immediately, but that at some subsequent period the Ancient of days would come, and would set up a kingdom on the earth, or would make over the kingdom to the saints. There would be as real a transfer and as actual a setting up of a peculiar kingdom, as if God himself should appear on the earth, and should publicly make over the dominion to them.

............

So the context and scriptures here seem to indicate a judgement taking place sometime AFTER the establsihement of the little horn power (RCC) so cannot be the judgement of the 4 x kingdoms (beasts).

v11 is a continuation of the beast (little Horn) being spoken about in v8 saying v11, I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This is explained by the Angel again in v25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Now once again AFTER the establishment of the "Little Horn" AFTER wearing out the saints of the Most High and AFTER the little Horn thinking to change times and laws the ANGEL explains..

v26-27 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it to the end. v27, And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Note what has happened here...

The judgement shall sit AFTER the establsihement of the of the "Little Horn" and after its persecution of the Saints and after it has thought to change times and laws.

back to v9-10

DANIEL 7:9-10 [9], I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. [10], A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

What books where opened? How are God's Saints determined so that dominion and God's Kingdom can be given to them? This is where the story is continued in the book of REVELATION.

A similar scene in Revelation:

REVELATION 4:2 [2], And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

REVELATION 4:3 [3], And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

REVELATION 5:6 [6], And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

REVELATION 5:7 [7], And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

REVELATION 5:11 [11], And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; <links to Daniel 7:10>

.............

DANIEL 7:10 ... the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

REVELATION 20:11-12 [11], And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12], And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

REVELATION 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The saints and wicked are Judged and determined before the 2nd advent.

ISAIAH 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

2 THESSOLINIANS 2:8 [8], And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

REVELATION 22:12, And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

If God's judgement does not take place until the 2nd coming then the scriptures above are not true.

Hope this helps.

Will need to chat more latter bye for now

 

[tall73]

Hello tall, yes there is a lot of truth in what you have posted here (most of the post; could not add all of it as it would not fit).

Although the judgement of Daniel 7 as only in reference to the judgement of the 4 beasts I think is a mistake as it does not really apply full context and scripture order as shown in Daniel 7:9.

The words “cast down” is from a single Aramaic word “remah’” meaning to “to place” or “set up” as well as “to throw” [25] down pillows or set up chairs to be seated upon. So, here, because “the Ancient of days” (who is God the Father) also “did sit,” Daniel was witnessing the convening of a judgment scene.

Therefore, the four earthly beasts Daniel just described in verses 1-8 comprise the context of this heavenly judgment scene. And, because the four beasts arose sequentially, one after another, it stands to reason that the convening of this judgment took place in heaven sometime after the other “little horn” began to speak “great things.” Note v 9 now which is AFTER the thrones were cast down...

DANIEL 7:9 [9], I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

What Daniel is seeing now is something taking place AFTER the thrones (Beasts) where cast down and AFTER the establishment of the "Little Horn" that was speaking great things.

The same sequence of events is then repeated and further explained by the angel in v16-27.

I am not much for the commentaries as mentioned earlier but thought this interesting.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Until the Ancient of days came - Notes, Daniel 7:9. That is, this was to occur after the horn grew to its full size, and after the war was made with the saints, and they had been overcome. It does not affirm that this would occur immediately, but that at some subsequent period the Ancient of days would come, and would set up a kingdom on the earth, or would make over the kingdom to the saints. There would be as real a transfer and as actual a setting up of a peculiar kingdom, as if God himself should appear on the earth, and should publicly make over the dominion to them.

............

So the context and scriptures here seem to indicate a judgement taking place sometime AFTER the establsihement of the little horn power (RCC) so cannot be the judgement of the 4 x kingdoms (beasts).

God judges all the nations, and was the one to take away their dominion, because He sets up kings and takes them down. This is why I asked you your view of the timing earlier. The changes in these kingdoms did indeed happen before the little horn.

However, even here He allows the nations to continue to exist. But the fourth is destroyed along with the little horn. And all of Rome is not professed followers either.

DANIEL 7:9-10 [9], I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. [10], A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

What books where opened? How are God's Saints determined so that dominion and God's Kingdom can be given to them? This is where the story is continued in the book of REVELATION.

You just added to the text. God is not confused who His saints are. The saints and little horn were clearly referenced in the text. And as even James White knew, before He didn't, Jesus knows who are His. He knows His sheep.

A similar scene in Revelation:

REVELATION 4:2 [2], And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

REVELATION 4:3 [3], And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

REVELATION 5:6 [6], And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

REVELATION 5:7 [7], And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

REVELATION 5:11 [11], And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; <links to Daniel 7:10>

.............

DANIEL 7:10 ... the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

REVELATION 20:11-12 [11], And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12], And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Why did you have to go to a totally different judgment, in a totally different scene? I think it is because your text in Daniel 7 doesn't say what you say.

It doesn't picture individual judgment. The one in Rev. 20 clearly does. Which is why you have to quote Rev. 20.

The saints and wicked are Judged and determined before the 2nd advent.

ISAIAH 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

2 THESSOLINIANS 2:8 [8], And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

REVELATION 22:12, And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

If God's judgement does not take place until the 2nd coming then the scriptures above are not true.

Hope this helps.

Of course they are, He knows His own sheep.

Here, James White can explain it to you:

It is not necessary that the final sentence should be given before the first resurrection, as some have taught; for the names of the saints are written in heaven, and Jesus, and the angels will certainly know who to raise, and gather to the New Jerusalem. "A Word to the Little Flock"

But you still didn't show a judgment on saints in Daniel 7--and there is still the destruction of Rome in the time frame you reference, along with the little horn. And the others are allowed to exist.

 

[tall73]

The Bible is to be read and understood in the language one understands, for instance:

So for instance, if I can understand the RV better, or it is more accurate for a given text, I should use that?

 

[tall73]

Nope not really. That was not the point to my post at all. Only providing the point that you cannot know God as a scholar. None of us can tall. The truth of God's WORD is only revealed as we all become babes and seek Jesus for it through his WORD. Please do not misunderstand my comments as directed towards you as they were not. It was the scholars of the day that put Jesus to death and persected the Saints. I do not like to use man made references. I think I stated this earlier and prefer God's WORD alone. But sometimes I will use them if I think others may benefit.

It was certainly curiously timed though, don't you think?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

God judges all the nations, and was the one to take away their dominion, because He sets up kings and takes them down.
However, even here He allows the nations to continue to exist. But the fourth is destroyed along with the little horn. And all of Rome is not professed followers either.

Hello tall, thanks for your thoughts, Not sure of your point here or why you think I do not believe God judges nations. What is a nation? It is a people. It is people that make up nations. and the people within the nations that God judges.

You just added to the text. God is not confused who His saints are. The saints and little horn were clearly referenced in the text. And as even James White knew, before He didn't, Jesus knows who are His. He knows His sheep.

I did not add to the text at all only pointed out the context you missed out comparing the dream and context of the dream with the Angels intepretation of the dream.

Why did you have to go to a totally different judgment, in a totally different scene? I think it is because your text in Daniel 7 doesn't say what you say. It doesn't picture individual judgment. The one in Rev. 20 clearly does. Which is why you have to quote Rev. 20.

These are the two great witnesses from the OLD and NEW COVENANT. You should know that the books of DANIEL and REVELATIONS go to gether to help interpret prophecy. You can see the scripture links (already provided) as well as the Chapter context of Daniel 7.

But you still didn't show a judgment on saints in Daniel 7--and there is still the destruction of Rome in the time frame you reference, along with the little horn. And the others are allowed to exist.

Well here we disagree as the previous post shows that the context of God's judgement is after the rising of the little horn, the persecution of the saints and thinking to change times and laws. The judgement of the nations is judgement of people and the judgements of God being delivered to the wicked and saints at the second coming.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It was certainly curiously timed though, don't you think?

Sorry you took it that way tall, that was not my intension. If the post was directed at you I would have posted it to you. Please forgive any misunderstanding that may have been caused by my post. If you read it you would have noted I applied it to myself.

Sorry will need to leave this now as my lunch break is finishing. BB for now.

 

[tall73]

Sorry you took it that way tall, that was not my intension. If the post was directed at you I would have posted it to you. Please forgive any misunderstanding that may have been caused by my post. If you read it you would have noted I applied it to myself.

Sorry will need to leave this now as my lunch break is finishing. BB for now.

Understood, and if you did not intend it such, there is nothing to forgive. And I hope you forgive me for jumping to the conclusion. God bless.