Still hope?

Poppyseed78

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I know you don't have a crystal ball but what are the "signs" that you have read that she wants this to work? I don't mean to sound like a 10 year old but I do appreciate the encouragement. The separation has thrown me for a loop...

I believe that if she wanted to leave, she would have done so already. And she has agreed to more marital counseling, right? I think she needs time to clear her mind and wants you to see how serious she is about this - and it is serious. I would encourage you to spend your time separated in prayer, keeping yourself busy, spending time with your kids, working on improving yourself through therapy, and not stressing as much as possible even though it is difficult.
 
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Hferry22

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I believe that if she wanted to leave, she would have done so already. And she has agreed to more marital counseling, right? I think she needs time to clear her mind and wants you to see how serious she is about this - and it is serious. I would encourage you to spend your time separated in prayer, keeping yourself busy, spending time with your kids, working on improving yourself through therapy, and not stressing as much as possible even though it is difficult.


That's the consensus that if she wanted to leave she would have done it by now, agreed. I cling to that hope. When I asked her about marriage counseling she hesitated because she said I should go for awhile and then we will see. I believe she does not want to invest time and money into marriage counseling until she has "seen" or "felt" the real change in me. I understand that if she feels like she can't trust me to change. She also wants to go for personal healing on her own as well.
 
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snoochface

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So, the chocolate incident is minor, but it leads me to wonder if it's a symptom of a more significant issue. I mean... your wife is an adult, and she decided on her own that she wanted to lose weight. Do you think she needs supervision with this? Do you think she can't also decide on her own that, on that particular night, she was allowing herself to have a piece of chocolate? You have a history of making snide comments to her without even realizing it, and I wonder about this particular incident and whether you might have made previous "snide remarks" that you thought were joking, but she felt were insulting, disrespectful, or disapproving about her weight or appearance. If her skin is burned by something like that, even a light touch is going to be painful to her.

And if that kind of thing did go on, and if you do have that sort of demeaning, "You can't lose weight on your own, do you really think that piece of chocolate is going to help you?" attitude toward her, then I can understand why she would think it will take much more than a two hour session with a therapist to make lifelong changes. You may have made remarks to her that were extremely hurtful, that you don't even recognize or remember, because it was second nature to you to be snide while considering it a joke. She needs for the "new" you to be second nature before she can trust you not to hurt her again.
 
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tall73

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Okay, here is an update....

The "plan" to speak with my wife with our pastors and their wives backfired. My pastor spoke to her on the phone and she was livid!! Here is what she said to my pastor...

She said this decision WAS going to happen; it's the best thing for the family right now; she does not want my bad example around the kids and this time of separation is a consequence to my sins.

A. It seems she is trying to fix the problem of you being controlling by her now being in control.

B. She has cut out other counselors, and will not allow them to meet with both of you because she insists on dictating the terms of "consequences"

C. Her solution to your control and abuse is to get livid with pastoral staff and insist on her way.

Sorry, but I am not convinced this is working. I do not know a ton about the book you mentioned, but in what I have seen it apparently does cast doubt on other counselors and encourages the person to take control of the process.

I would suggest your going to your therapy session, learning about your patterns of behavior, etc. was helpful. It gave outside advice on how to go forward, pointed out sinful behaviors, looked at causes, etc. I would also think counseling together might be helpful. It could look at what role you both play, how to build better patterns, help both of you see blind spots, help both of you come into line with what God desires. etc.. But for her to say that she is going to dictate all of the terms of your consequences of her choosing and imposition is not a solution to me. It is not bringing both of you into line with God's desire in your marriage, but is simply putting her in charge of the situation instead of you.

Others of course may disagree.

And no, this is not gender driven. If the wife were being controlling it would not be in line for the husband to just dictate everything from a one sided perspective either. If she admits to enabling and you admit to controlling, then get help for both of you in figuring out how to have Christ-centered marriage instead of taking turns compelling the other against their will.
 
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snoochface

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I believe it was their son that reminded her of her intention to not eat after dinner. I wouldn't expect a young boy to be doing anything other than abiding by her "rules" she set for herself.
True, but he said he'd said similar things to her himself.
 
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Hferry22

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So, the chocolate incident is minor, but it leads me to wonder if it's a symptom of a more significant issue. I mean... your wife is an adult, and she decided on her own that she wanted to lose weight. Do you think she needs supervision with this? Do you think she can't also decide on her own that, on that particular night, she was allowing herself to have a piece of chocolate? You have a history of making snide comments to her without even realizing it, and I wonder about this particular incident and whether you might have made previous "snide remarks" that you thought were joking, but she felt were insulting, disrespectful, or disapproving about her weight or appearance. If her skin is burned by something like that, even a light touch is going to be painful to her.

And if that kind of thing did go on, and if you do have that sort of demeaning, "You can't lose weight on your own, do you really think that piece of chocolate is going to help you?" attitude toward her, then I can understand why she would think it will take much more than a two hour session with a therapist to make lifelong changes. You may have made remarks to her that were extremely hurtful, that you don't even recognize or remember, because it was second nature to you to be snide while considering it a joke. She needs for the "new" you to be second nature before she can trust you not to hurt her again.


I think these are very valid points. This is indicative of our marriage over the years; unintentional abuse was going on and it was never brought up to the manner in which it was until 17 years later. I'm still in the dark about specific examples. However, I do agree that my attitude has probably made all of this worse over the years. Unintentional or not it was wrong. I hope it's not too late...
 
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HannahT

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A. It seems she is trying to fix the problem of you being controlling by her now being in control.

B. She has cut out other counselors, and will not allow them to meet with both of you because she insists on dictating the terms of "consequences"

C. Her solution to your control and abuse is to get livid with pastoral staff and insist on her way.

We don't know all the dynamics, but from what I read so far? They both agreed they were not getting anything from the pastoral counseling.

We have to be careful with how we approach actions of either party. Your statements seem to me a tad to black and white. Every human being has it within themselves to make decisions for themselves, and if she feels she needs a separation to get her head on straight? We aren't walking in her shoes, and we don't know if she is doing so with an attitude of control or wanting her way. We need to be careful to NOT to jump to conclusions.

I mean if you stand back and read what you have written? She needs to do it our way, or we will insist that she only wants it her way...has a bit of controlling aspect to it was well. If you feel you have been dealing with a controlling personality, and you approach her with a solution that tends to hint of the same attitude? She will run even faster. Finding blame instead of trying to understand her POV isn't going to help anything. She may have felt unheard, because pastoral staff do not always have the proper tools to deal with every circumstance. They are humans, and every Christian needs to admit their limitations. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

My uncle was a Pastor/Missionary and even he knew at times certain dynamics within relationships were out of his ballpark of expertise. Although, many individuals seem to not recognize this at times. They are suppose to be masters of everything it seems (pastors). If they are uncertain they can do more harm than good. Sadly - they have as well! The church doesn't have expertise in every area, and sadly in this arena have failed on more than one occasion. Some advice I have read or heard has been rather chilling. It's okay to have a combination of help, but the individuals must be ready to accept that. You won't get anywhere if they don't want your help.

Being controlling doesn't have a switch that you can turn off and on if it is truly within your DNA. It's something that must be dealt with, and it will be a hard process. That doesn't mean its impossible, and you have remember he even admitted he is having a hard time understanding the true issue. It comes with the territory, and he will in time. I mean how many humans do you know that have no issue with changing habitual habits they have clung to all their lifes? No one!

This might be a good time for reflection for both of them. He has time and space to truly wrap his mind and heart around what is happening - which he is struggling with now. That's okay too. It will come! She also has to step back, and find ways within herself to be more assertive - and learn boundaries - when it comes to this behavior. This also isn't an easy step, and she will STRUGGLE with that part too. She will get it in time - just as he will...if they both continue to walk that path.
 
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Hferry22

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A. It seems she is trying to fix the problem of you being controlling by her now being in control.

B. She has cut out other counselors, and will not allow them to meet with both of you because she insists on dictating the terms of "consequences"

C. Her solution to your control and abuse is to get livid with pastoral staff and insist on her way.

Sorry, but I am not convinced this is working. I do not know a ton about the book you mentioned, but in what I have seen it apparently does cast doubt on other counselors and encourages the person to take control of the process.

I would suggest your going to your therapy session, learning about your patterns of behavior, etc. was helpful. It gave outside advice on how to go forward, pointed out sinful behaviors, looked at causes, etc. I would also think counseling together might be helpful. It could look at what role you both play, how to build better patterns, help both of you see blind spots, help both of you come into line with what God desires. etc.. But for her to say that she is going to dictate all of the terms of your consequences of her choosing and imposition is not a solution to me. It is not bringing both of you into line with God's desire in your marriage, but is simply putting her in charge of the situation instead of you.

Others of course may disagree.

And no, this is not gender driven. If the wife were being controlling it would not be in line for the husband to just dictate everything from a one sided perspective either. If she admits to enabling and you admit to controlling, then get help for both of you in figuring out how to have Christ-centered marriage instead of taking turns compelling the other against their will.


Yes, I do agree with A, B, and C. I have not control over any of this right now. I really don't know my wife right now. There are no deep discussions about this marriage; she is hurting and needs healing and that's all I got...
 
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Hferry22

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We don't know all the dynamics, but from what I read so far? They both agreed they were not getting anything from the pastoral counseling.

We have to be careful with how we approach actions of either party. Your statements seem to me a tad to black and white. Every human being has it within themselves to make decisions for themselves, and if she feels she needs a separation to get her head on straight? We aren't walking in her shoes, and we don't know if she is doing so with an attitude of control or wanting her way. We need to be careful to NOT to jump to conclusions.

I mean if you stand back and read what you have written? She needs to do it our way, or we will insist that she only wants it her way...has a bit of controlling aspect to it was well. If you feel you have been dealing with a controlling personality, and you approach her with a solution that tends to hint of the same attitude? She will run even faster. Finding blame instead of trying to understand her POV isn't going to help anything. She may have felt unheard, because pastoral staff do not always have the proper tools to deal with every circumstance. They are humans, and every Christian needs to admit their limitations. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

My uncle was a Pastor/Missionary and even he knew at times certain dynamics within relationships were out of his ballpark of expertise. Although, many individuals seem to not recognize this at times. They are suppose to be masters of everything it seems (pastors). If they are uncertain they can do more harm than good. Sadly - they have as well! The church doesn't have expertise in every area, and sadly in this arena have failed on more than one occasion. Some advice I have read or heard has been rather chilling. It's okay to have a combination of help, but the individuals must be ready to accept that. You won't get anywhere if they don't want your help.

Being controlling doesn't have a switch that you can turn off and on if it is truly within your DNA. It's something that must be dealt with, and it will be a hard process. That doesn't mean its impossible, and you have remember he even admitted he is having a hard time understanding the true issue. It comes with the territory, and he will in time. I mean how many humans do you know that have no issue with changing habitual habits they have clung to all their lifes? No one!

This might be a good time for reflection for both of them. He has time and space to truly wrap his mind and heart around what is happening - which he is struggling with now. That's okay too. It will come! She also has to step back, and find ways within herself to be more assertive - and learn boundaries - when it comes to this behavior. This also isn't an easy step, and she will STRUGGLE with that part too. She will get it in time - just as he will...if they both continue to walk that path.


There is a lot of work to be done in a short amount of time; honestly I feel I have to make changes quickly in order to "prove" myself to her. Yesterday was an anxious, panic filled day.
 
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Hferry22

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*This is a message from a mutual friend who spoke with my wife; any takeaways from her

I am on my way into my classroom and can't respond a great deal, but I always believe in hope! I've seen God restore marriages time and again! I believe in it! I know it doesn't always end up that way, but just because things look dark doesn't mean it's over. Right now, I can only see one little line on my phone and can't see the rest of what I'm typing so please forgive any typos or is this seems to not run together properly.
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As you have asked for confidence, I also feel the same about keeping Sarah's confidence. I'm not going to share what either of you have said, but I did feel I needed to mention to her that I was going to talk to you. My friends did that for me when they talked to my ex and it made me trust them and feel respected. I hope you understand that. I know why you reached out. I've been in your shoes.

The place you are in is scary, but it doesn't mean it is over. If you love her, and it sounds like a resounding yes, then keep doing all the great steps you are taking. Those are very positive things. I'm sure you have so many praying and hoping the best for you guys. Sarah is a wonderful girl who loves God and has dedicated her life to him, and she's sincere. Those things alone would give me hope. I will pray and I truly hope for the absolute best for you guys! I had told my husband before about the two of you and about how God had healed your marriage. It was encouraging and a blessing to see. I always felt God the most in the worst of times, especially when I was alone at home feeling all of the grief and fear of different situations in my life. He never let me down, even when I couldn't see the next step or the next hour or day. He's got you!
 
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HannahT

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There is a lot of work to be done in a short amount of time; honestly I feel I have to make changes quickly in order to "prove" myself to her. Yesterday was an anxious, panic filled day.

You will have a number of those days. It's called being human I'm afraid.

You can't go to fast, because you will NOT understand the entire thing. Listening to other stories from other individuals about their experience sometimes helps turn on the light to hints of what your wife has experienced. She isn't the person that should be explaining all this to you. She is a crispy right now - meaning burnt out - on explaining things. You may feel differently, but you have to respect her POV anyway. She can't fix that for you - its something you must find yourself.

Slow down and take a breath. Don't get to legalistic about this. Change isn't going to happen in 4 months, but progress can. That is what she is looking for. Genuine progress. You can't show her contrition if you don't understand WHY you need to be contrite. I bet if you allow yourself to slow down a bit you may remember some hints here and there within your marriage in which she did explain, and you were not in a place to hear at the time. lol it happens to all of us! We have all been in a position in which what someone was telling us something that seemed like NOT a big deal - or they are making a mountain out of a molehill. Sadly, that is where we miss important parts of what is important to them. We all blow it.

First step - trying to wrap your head around parts of the dynamic that you can't recognize right now that was downright damaging to your relationship. I will use something from your first post here. This is NOT a revelation or anything. Just using your own words about something important to you, and feeling right now - and how a snide remark can slice you half! It may give you an idea of what she has been dealing with!

You to wive: I want this relationship to work, and I'm ready to do anything! I love you!
Your wive's response: Get over it.

Now, think of how that could impact your view of the world - and your relationship if this was ongoing. Yes, it is soul crushing isn't it? I didn't mean to come across as nasty using this example, but just give you a taste.
 
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tall73

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We don't know all the dynamics, but from what I read so far? They both agreed they were not getting anything from the pastoral counseling.

a. He went to the therapist which sounded very helpful, and was looking for both of them to work in a similar situation. The therapist did not side with him, but helped him recognize sinful patterns.

b. So you think that she is justified in responding to the pastors who were just wanting to meet to discuss this proposal of time apart by being livid and demanding?

We have to be careful with how we approach actions of either party. Your statements seem to me a tad to black and white. Every human being has it within themselves to make decisions for themselves, and if she feels she needs a separation to get her head on straight? We aren't walking in her shoes, and we don't know if she is doing so with an attitude of control or wanting her way. We need to be careful to NOT to jump to conclusions.

The conclusion is pretty straight-forward. She demands this, and wanted no other counselors, and no pastoral input. Can she make the decision for herself? Of course. Does he have to agree to it? No. He doesn't have to move out of his own house. He doesn't have to agree that the best thing is not to get any outside counsel.

I mean if you stand back and read what you have written? She needs to do it our way, or we will insist that she only wants it her way...has a bit of controlling aspect to it was well.

They were indicating they wanted to meet together with both of them to discuss. That is different then you must accept the consequences I decide for you.

If you feel you have been dealing with a controlling personality, and you approach her with a solution that tends to hint of the same attitude? She will run even faster.
And if you are reading a book that discourages outside counsel and tells you to take charge, you might try to take charge.

But apart from that, she needs the outside help as much as he does. And the therapist he saw did not sound like he was dictating everything. He was helping him recognize what was going on.

Finding blame instead of trying to understand her POV isn't going to help anything. She may have felt unheard, because pastoral staff do not always have the proper tools to deal with every circumstance.

The pastoral staff was not the option either of them were looking at. He was seeing a qualified therapist who was actually helping and wanted that for both of them. The pastoral request was just to talk over her unilateral decision that forced him out and short-circuited joint efforts.

Now if they had all met together and discussed the issue and she still felt that she needed a separation to work things through, they could at least set some parameters for how that might look, gain his buy-in, etc.

They are humans, and every Christian needs to admit their limitations. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

My uncle was a Pastor/Missionary and even he knew at times certain dynamics within relationships were out of his ballpark of expertise. Although, many individuals seem to not recognize this at times.

So how much more is her deciding both her and his steps to recovery outside of her expertise?

He was wanting a qualified therapist who could help them both recognize possible issues to work with them, not wanting to have just the pastoral staff handle it.

They are suppose to be masters of everything it seems (pastors). If they are uncertain they can do more harm than good. Sadly - they have as well! The church doesn't have expertise in every area, and sadly in this arena have failed on more than one occasion. Some advice I have read or heard has been rather chilling. It's okay to have a combination of help, but the individuals must be ready to accept that. You won't get anywhere if they don't want your help.

I have been in that position as a pastor. I referred a great many issues that I couldn't deal with. But the pastor still has to minister to both, and help them to get in touch with someone who does have that expertise.

Being controlling doesn't have a switch that you can turn off and on if it is truly within your DNA. It's something that must be dealt with, and it will be a hard process. That doesn't mean its impossible, and you have remember he even admitted he is having a hard time understanding the true issue. It comes with the territory, and he will in time. I mean how many humans do you know that have no issue with changing habitual habits they have clung to all their lifes? No one!
All the more reason he needs the therapist.

And if patterns of appeasement and failing to speak out, and at the same time letting hurt build up without seeking help are in your life for years, do you think you can immediately recognize all of that and get rid of it on your own, while also prescribing the exact remedy for the other party? Might someone who is trained to help with that be able to assist?

This might be a good time for reflection for both of them. He has time and space to truly wrap his mind and heart around what is happening - which he is struggling with now. That's okay too. It will come! She also has to step back, and find ways within herself to be more assertive - and learn boundaries - when it comes to this behavior. This also isn't an easy step, and she will STRUGGLE with that part too. She will get it in time - just as he will...if they both continue to walk that path.

And what he was suggesting was help for both.
 
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snoochface

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Please, please just try to take a step back and don't keep reaching out to other people - your pastor (she reacted very badly to that because it felt like an ambush to her) and now one of her friends. The mutual friend is trying to give you hope, as we've tried to do, but she's also going to share with your wife that you reached out in a desperate attempt to find out what is going on with your wife, and that is EXACTLY what she does not want right now. She wants time, she wants space. You aren't giving her that. I know why you reached out to the friend, but how is that going to look to your wife? "I asked him for time and space to work on himself, and he's now contacting my friends to try to find out what's going on with me." Your desperation is going to backfire on you. You HAVE to calm down and back off a little.

You have no control over this situation right now. You know that, you've acknowledged it. But the panicky part of you is still trying to exert some control by asking anyone and everyone if they think there's hope, if they have ideas about what's going on, if they have feedback to share. Asking us is one thing, but asking her friends is something else altogether. If it were me.... as a woman's perspective... I would not want my personal business on blast like that. You have to trust her to be the integrous, sincere woman you have known her to be, and trust her when she says she is using this time to try to figure things out.

Most of all, you have to trust God to be the one to handle this right now. You have to stop trying to exert control and get constant reaffirmations of hope, because it's going to seem so controlling to your wife that you are going to waste some of this time that she has asked for.
 
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Hferry22

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Please, please just try to take a step back and don't keep reaching out to other people - your pastor (she reacted very badly to that because it felt like an ambush to her) and now one of her friends. The mutual friend is trying to give you hope, as we've tried to do, but she's also going to share with your wife that you reached out in a desperate attempt to find out what is going on with your wife, and that is EXACTLY what she does not want right now. She wants time, she wants space. You aren't giving her that. I know why you reached out to the friend, but how is that going to look to your wife? "I asked him for time and space to work on himself, and he's now contacting my friends to try to find out what's going on with me." Your desperation is going to backfire on you. You HAVE to calm down and back off a little.

You have no control over this situation right now. You know that, you've acknowledged it. But the panicky part of you is still trying to exert some control by asking anyone and everyone if they think there's hope, if they have ideas about what's going on, if they have feedback to share. Asking us is one thing, but asking her friends is something else altogether. If it were me.... as a woman's perspective... I would not want my personal business on blast like that. You have to trust her to be the integrous, sincere woman you have known her to be, and trust her when she says she is using this time to try to figure things out.

Most of all, you have to trust God to be the one to handle this right now. You have to stop trying to exert control and get constant reaffirmations of hope, because it's going to seem so controlling to your wife that you are going to waste some of this time that she has asked for.


Thank you for this; I am waaaayyy consumed by this right now. I did not know she had reached out to my friend. My wife knows now because she said something to her about letting her know that we would talk. So, I took the step of ceasing communication with my wife's friend. To be clear, this a mutual friend that we have not seen in years but reached out to us during a trying time in her previous message. My attempt was to ask her how she navigated that season of restoration (which it did at the time). However, once she told me I told her that I would stop talking to her about it. So I have deleted those Facebook conversations and I am going to unplug Facebook for awhile.

Question; since my wife knows should I just let her friend tell her that I ceased the conversation OR should I contact my wife and tell her that this was not intentional and that I have ceased the conversation at this point?
 
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Hferry22

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For the past week, especially, I have been trying to manipulate this entire situation. I have reacted out of fear and desperation. After yesterday I felt extremely guilty and really at the end of my self emotionally. I'm done trying to manipulate but it's still very much in me so I will have to work this out with the Lord and in therapy next week. I have a HUGE problem with obsessing, worrying, fearing, doubting, etc...and this separation has really taken its toll on me. I don't mean to make this about me but you all know what I'm trying to say. So, in the past week my pastor calls her and then I reach out to this mutual friend, even though I did not know my wife had reached out. It still left an impression I was not intending to make. I feel horrible today for trying to manipulate God and then this situation. As you pray for healing for my wife and healing for this marriage please pray for healing for me with regards to this behavioral patterns that are not godly in any way.

Our female counseling pastor encouraged me to pray for three things when speaking to God; God show me how to KNOW my wife, LOVE my wife, and RESPECT my wife. I do not love or respect her when I try to manipulate. She felt strongly if I would pray and ask the Lord he would reveal these things to me and she will then see them. Since we are married and we know God's will is for this marriage to thrive then we are also connected spiritually. THIS is where God will need to speak to my wife in all of this and THIS is where she will know and sense that my heart has changed. There is nothing in the natural that I can do or say; it has to be a heart change in me, which is a spiritual transformation.

I also have to get to the point of not making this about the marriage; yes it is all part of the prayer but my obsession needs to be getting closer to the Lord. If she is seeking the Lord, and I know she is, and I'm seeking the Lord then he will draw us closer to him and then eventually to each other. So, after one week of separation I believe I've gotten this garbage out of my system. As you all can see I have MUCH work to be done. I have to find some way to not worry about all of this (hard right now) and let it go and give God room to work. He can't work if I'm in the way...
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Ok, I’m caught up and I have some thoughts.

1. From when I started reading to getting caught up just now, I never got the impression that she was sending a vibe that she had true confidence your marriage was salvageable. I really, really didn’t. You and your peers are hanging your hat on “well if she wanted to leave, she would have,” but the fact is... She’s wanting to leave. By sending you the letter, speaking less optimistically of the marriage, pulling away emotionally for 3+ weeks before the letter, all of that lines up with somebody getting closure in the demise of a relationship. Even the thing you took as a victory (she would have been long gone if it wasn’t for spiritual conviction saying to give it a shot) was, in my mind and from my vantage point of being divorced and seeing my now-husband’s divorce play out, you were in the extreme, extreme, “it’s ending soon” red zone. I think your pastor sensed that because when you reached out for the “things are good, huh?” ego injection, you were told to be patient. That’s a cautious answer that really runs counter to things going great.

TBH, I’ve seen a lot of cases where wives who feel abused ease their partners into the process because they’re worried about what would happen if they approached more directly and more speedily.

2. You are very, very, very, very, very, very, very self-focused and look for high rewards with minimal invested time. Through this whole thread, we’ve heard about what you learned about you, what you did for you, what you feel, what you interpret what she says to a way that suits what you want to hear, what your pastor thinks of you, how far you drove for this amazing therapist you always wanted to try since about a month ago when you realized you were in danger of losing your marriage. We are throughly up to date on what you have done, how you feel, what you will do, what you want, and how changed you are.

So... Now... How about your wife? What does she need? Does she need you to work on trauma eggs and 2 hour trips to therapists? Or does she need something else from you to feel like you’re making an effort. You showed up at her employer to give her a Diet Coke (?!?)... Is that what she wants from you? Because you can do allllllll these activities until you are blue in the face. If it’s not what she needs to feel like changes have been made, all these things are not you proving to her you’ve grown, it’s actually the opposite. It’s things you are doing to make you feel good about you, not things you are doing for her or the marriage.

Like, take the Diet Coke example... What did you think she’d do? Gush over the gesture? Be flattered? Show affection? I mean... She’s at work. Considering she’s debating ending the marriage and has settled on having you move out so she doesn’t see you daily, here’s guessing you popping by her job to give her a $1.50 drink wasn’t welcome, appreciated, or seen as any sort of gesture. More likely she thought it was strange, reinforced your lack of boundaries with her needs, and put her in a weird place with her Co-workers. Here you are adding it into your “I am a good guy” list, and she’s like “what the heck was that about?” That was a move purely for your ego, not your marriage or her.

Another sign of not getting it... You say you had sex Easter weekend. Great. But sex is sex. It’s an action. I can say I ate today. I can say I went to the movies. I can’t say that what I ate was something meaningful or especially poignant or wonderful and I can’t say the movie I saw changed my life. Sex? Same thing.

So you had sex... When was the last time you had meaningful, connective, emotional sex... For both of you? Have you asked her? Here’s guessing the answer she will give you isn’t Easter weekend.

3. Stop with the self-martyrdom. It is not endearing. It is not constructive. It is not a tangible change. It is self serving. It is attention seeking. It is ego serving. It is pity shopping. It is highly, highly manipulative. Like, if it were me, I’d have lost my noodles at how you presented moving out to your son. Your letter about snooping through her journal? Patronizing, manipulative, and passive aggressive. Don’t tell her how she feels. She knows. Tell her your understanding of what you did wrong and why it was wrong and what you will change.

If you truly, truly believe this is your fault (for the record, I don’t think it’s 100% only one spouses fault when a marriage fails, nor do I think it matters if it is or isn’t), do the work. The work you need, the work she needs, the work your marriage needs.

4. Your expectation of the degree of change and the rewards you get for it after just barely a month of work is unrealistic. It’s like those memes that say “I ate like crap for 20 years but exercised every day this week, why am I not skinny yet?” This takes time, true change, and possibly accepting that to show you’ve truly changed you can lose everything and still not revert to old behaviors. And, TBH, I’ve seen a lot that shows maybe you haven’t changed as much as you’d like.

For example, you spoke of having to carefully pick your words to make sure you don’t accidentally revert to your old behavior. You also, in a post where you were self-martyring for being such a bad guy, you said you were abusive in your words... But you don’t think you are. You didn’t know how bad things were... But you’ve always had that sense of humor but “she chose” to marry you and have kids. It’s all your fault... But she enabled you in your abusive behavior by tolerating it. That’s all blame shifting, and if you believe you’re abusive (and you said you don’t), saying somebody enabled you to abusing them is... Um... Gross. It’s not indicative of real change. She has every right to see a month of you-focused Work and worry based off of these comments that it might not stick.

To be honest, I feel like if you really thought you couldn’t get her back, these changes wouldn’t stick and your sarcastic humor would only escalate.

5. Some of your behaviors are overbearing at best, stalkerish at worst. Reading her journal? Showing up at work to give her a can of soda? Reading a book she’s reading then panicking it’s filling her head with ideation to leave you? Passive aggressive comments about her friends/family who don’t agree with your behavior? Praying over her bed? Anointing windows? Investigating her via friends? The Pastor incident?

Dial. It. Down. I’m not even involved in this but reading all that made me want to run.

6. When doing custody changes, park the car, get out, knock on the door, and properly receive your child and their bags. You are picking up your flesh and blood, not a package. Treat them with dignity and respect in this process, it will encourage him to do the same. You are a gentleman who’s raising a gentleman. Unless she has specifically told you to not approach her or the Home, which seems unlikely, do not act like a bad date when picking up your children. Act like a gentleman, raising gentleman, showing his children that just because he doesn’t live there anymore he’s not treating them any differently. He is not announcing via horn to the neighborhood that he’s driven into their lives for a few hours and they should come running. It implies it’s too much of a hassle to come out and get them properly, or they need to scoot because you don’t want to wait. It shifts the emotional burden of exchange into Kids.

I have two boys from my husband’s first marriage. No matter where he gets them from or drops them off to, no matter the weather, no matter the time, he parks, gets them or drops them off, and gives them proper greetings and goodbyes. It’s one of the thousand little things he does to show that they are in a two-household family, but are not treated like a scheduled obligation on a checklist. Their mother does the same and it is an act that reinforces unity and stability, not to mention compassion and understanding in a dynamic that is foreign and at times uncomfortable.

Watching parents do the curb exchange or the honk-and-wait make me bonkers. The looks on the kids faces as they scurry out, heads down, a cross between embarrassed and anxious... It’s terrible. Don’t be that guy.
 
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Hferry22

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Ok, I’m caught up and I have some thoughts.

1. From when I started reading to getting caught up just now, I never got the impression that she was sending a vibe that she had true confidence your marriage was salvageable. I really, really didn’t. You and your peers are hanging your hat on “well if she wanted to leave, she would have,” but the fact is... She’s wanting to leave. By sending you the letter, speaking less optimistically of the marriage, pulling away emotionally for 3+ weeks before the letter, all of that lines up with somebody getting closure in the demise of a relationship. Even the thing you took as a victory (she would have been long gone if it wasn’t for spiritual conviction saying to give it a shot) was, in my mind and from my vantage point of being divorced and seeing my now-husband’s divorce play out, you were in the extreme, extreme, “it’s ending soon” red zone. I think your pastor sensed that because when you reached out for the “things are good, huh?” ego injection, you were told to be patient. That’s a cautious answer that really runs counter to things going great.

TBH, I’ve seen a lot of cases where wives who feel abused ease their partners into the process because they’re worried about what would happen if they approached more directly and more speedily.

2. You are very, very, very, very, very, very, very self-focused and look for high rewards with minimal invested time. Through this whole thread, we’ve heard about what you learned about you, what you did for you, what you feel, what you interpret what she says to a way that suits what you want to hear, what your pastor thinks of you, how far you drove for this amazing therapist you always wanted to try since about a month ago when you realized you were in danger of losing your marriage. We are throughly up to date on what you have done, how you feel, what you will do, what you want, and how changed you are.

So... Now... How about your wife? What does she need? Does she need you to work on trauma eggs and 2 hour trips to therapists? Or does she need something else from you to feel like you’re making an effort. You showed up at her employer to give her a Diet Coke (?!?)... Is that what she wants from you? Because you can do allllllll these activities until you are blue in the face. If it’s not what she needs to feel like changes have been made, all these things are not you proving to her you’ve grown, it’s actually the opposite. It’s things you are doing to make you feel good about you, not things you are doing for her or the marriage.

Like, take the Diet Coke example... What did you think she’d do? Gush over the gesture? Be flattered? Show affection? I mean... She’s at work. Considering she’s debating ending the marriage and has settled on having you move out so she doesn’t see you daily, here’s guessing you popping by her job to give her a $1.50 drink wasn’t welcome, appreciated, or seen as any sort of gesture. More likely she thought it was strange, reinforced your lack of boundaries with her needs, and put her in a weird place with her Co-workers. Here you are adding it into your “I am a good guy” list, and she’s like “what the heck was that about?” That was a move purely for your ego, not your marriage or her.

Another sign of not getting it... You say you had sex Easter weekend. Great. But sex is sex. It’s an action. I can say I ate today. I can say I went to the movies. I can’t say that what I ate was something meaningful or especially poignant or wonderful and I can’t say the movie I saw changed my life. Sex? Same thing.

So you had sex... When was the last time you had meaningful, connective, emotional sex... For both of you? Have you asked her? Here’s guessing the answer she will give you isn’t Easter weekend.

3. Stop with the self-martyrdom. It is not endearing. It is not constructive. It is not a tangible change. It is self serving. It is attention seeking. It is ego serving. It is pity shopping. It is highly, highly manipulative. Like, if it were me, I’d have lost my noodles at how you presented moving out to your son. Your letter about snooping through her journal? Patronizing, manipulative, and passive aggressive. Don’t tell her how she feels. She knows. Tell her your understanding of what you did wrong and why it was wrong and what you will change.

If you truly, truly believe this is your fault (for the record, I don’t think it’s 100% only one spouses fault when a marriage fails, nor do I think it matters if it is or isn’t), do the work. The work you need, the work she needs, the work your marriage needs.

4. Your expectation of the degree of change and the rewards you get for it after just barely a month of work is unrealistic. It’s like those memes that say “I ate like crap for 20 years but exercised every day this week, why am I not skinny yet?” This takes time, true change, and possibly accepting that to show you’ve truly changed you can lose everything and still not revert to old behaviors. And, TBH, I’ve seen a lot that shows maybe you haven’t changed as much as you’d like.

For example, you spoke of having to carefully pick your words to make sure you don’t accidentally revert to your old behavior. You also, in a post where you were self-martyring for being such a bad guy, you said you were abusive in your words... But you don’t think you are. You didn’t know how bad things were... But you’ve always had that sense of humor but “she chose” to marry you and have kids. It’s all your fault... But she enabled you in your abusive behavior by tolerating it. That’s all blame shifting, and if you believe you’re abusive (and you said you don’t), saying somebody enabled you to abusing them is... Um... Gross. It’s not indicative of real change. She has every right to see a month of you-focused Work and worry based off of these comments that it might not stick.

To be honest, I feel like if you really thought you couldn’t get her back, these changes wouldn’t stick and your sarcastic humor would only escalate.

5. Some of your behaviors are overbearing at best, stalkerish at worst. Reading her journal? Showing up at work to give her a can of soda? Reading a book she’s reading then panicking it’s filling her head with ideation to leave you? Passive aggressive comments about her friends/family who don’t agree with your behavior? Praying over her bed? Anointing windows? Investigating her via friends? The Pastor incident?

Dial. It. Down. I’m not even involved in this but reading all that made me want to run.

6. When doing custody changes, park the car, get out, knock on the door, and properly receive your child and their bags. You are picking up your flesh and blood, not a package. Treat them with dignity and respect in this process, it will encourage him to do the same. You are a gentleman who’s raising a gentleman. Unless she has specifically told you to not approach her or the Home, which seems unlikely, do not act like a bad date when picking up your children. Act like a gentleman, raising gentleman, showing his children that just because he doesn’t live there anymore he’s not treating them any differently. He is not announcing via horn to the neighborhood that he’s driven into their lives for a few hours and they should come running. It implies it’s too much of a hassle to come out and get them properly, or they need to scoot because you don’t want to wait. It shifts the emotional burden of exchange into Kids.

I have two boys from my husband’s first marriage. No matter where he gets them from or drops them off to, no matter the weather, no matter the time, he parks, gets them or drops them off, and gives them proper greetings and goodbyes. It’s one of the thousand little things he does to show that they are in a two-household family, but are not treated like a scheduled obligation on a checklist. Their mother does the same and it is an act that reinforces unity and stability, not to mention compassion and understanding in a dynamic that is foreign and at times uncomfortable.

Watching parents do the curb exchange or the honk-and-wait make me bonkers. The looks on the kids faces as they scurry out, heads down, a cross between embarrassed and anxious... It’s terrible. Don’t be that guy.


Thank you
 
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Hferry22

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Hi Folks,

Well we've been around and around with all of this for awhile now and her are a few things after this long weekend that I have to share...

1. I've been very selfish in this process. It's very, very hard right now, yes, and I believe it's okay to say that of course but I have been selfish in making this about me more than my wife.

2. I have asked God to break me before him. I need to have a brokenness like David did when he sinned with Bathsheba. It's hard to gauge this since I'm in the middle of it but I know that my heart aches in all of this. But, why? Do I just not want to lose my wife or is it deeper in that I have sinned against God? I'm asking God about the latter.

3. I have also asked God to break me for the hurt that I have caused my wife. Similar to number 2 I'm asking him to truly allow me to feel the pain that I have caused.

4. I still have work to do on my flesh; I'm not a monster but I feel like this is portrayed and my flesh wants to rise up against this. I need prayer here.

5. God IS in this!

6. Sure, she may not really want to be with me right now and I know that. I can't do anything about it other than to love her from afar and be genuine and cordial when I see her three nights a week when I go see the kids.

I did receive what I felt to be an encouraging text from her childhood friend she recently spoke to...

"We are praying for restoration. I think keep doing what your doing is a great idea (counseling). Me and my husband have been here before and I just needed him to show me that he was willing to put in the work no matter how long it took me to come around. We love you guys and are standing together in prayer for you, your wife and the boys."
 
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