Messianics who preach circumcision

Open Heart

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Ahh, but why preach a need to be Jew?
I'm have not read every post in the thread, and am not sure I'm going to read all five pages. Is someone saying that Gentiles SHOULD become Jews? That is not a claim of Messianism or Messianic Judaism.
 
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Open Heart

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Israel was multinational, and is multinational. Besides the Hebrews, other people joined Moses when they came out of Egypt.
Israel was not multinational. The mixed multitude that joined it became Israelites. There were sojourners in the land, but they did not become part of Israel. Often, their children did, becoming Israelites, but then having become Israelites, they weren't another nationality anymore.
 
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Open Heart

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Replacement Theology is where the Catholic Church takes the place of Israel and the Rabbi's.
1. The Catholic Church no longer allows the teaching of Replacement Theology. See the Vatican 2 document Nostra Aetate.

2. Replacement Theology was rampant in ALL Christian Churches, and is still taught in too many Protestant churches.
 
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Open Heart

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I am not aware of any other denomination preaching RT.
Seventh Day Adventist
United Methodist Church
Evangelical Lutheran Church inAmerica
Presbyterian Church
American Methodist Episcopal Church
Assemblies of God
National Baptist Convention of America
The Church of God in Christ
Southern Baptist Convention
National Baptist Convention USA
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
Progressive National Baptist Convention Inc
Episcopal Church
Churches of Christ
Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc
American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A
African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
United Church of Christ
Baptist Bible Fellowship International
Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, Joplin, Mo
Church of God, Cleveland, Tenn
 
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Open Heart

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The Covenant of Circumcision was a means for other people from other nations to enter that covenant with God.
The Covenant of Circumcision was conditional, and because it was continually broken, it was revoked by God.
Genesis 17:13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
 
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Open Heart

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You are making another false allegation. The Sabbath and moral commands remain. It was the priesthood that was changed and the festivals done away with. To say it is not so is Anti-Christ.
He is correct. You are teaching that we SHOULD NOT obey all aspects of the Torah. That is contrary to the SOP, which he quoted to you.
 
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Open Heart

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I see everyone dodged my question and ignored the scriptures I posted.
There is more than one place in Genesis that it says "everlasting covenant." You did not reply yet to my quote about circumcision being an everlasting covenant.
 
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visionary

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I'm not sure what you mean. Ritual purity has nothing to do with sin. It's ceremonial. I do it. I wash my hands and stuff. Very MJ.
Those that were condemning Yeshua and His Disciples for not washing their hands, were very concerned over the importance of hand washing and walking the pure life.
 
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BukiRob

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I've ran into a few teachings on this sunject recently, and it has left me wondering how this is justified by someone who believes the New Testament. They say that Christians actually should get circumcised as an act of obedience, yet I am not convinced that this is what the New Testament teaches.

In Acts 15 the council in Jerusalem concludes that circumcision is unnecessary for the Gentiles, and then maybe 10 years later, ( according to one timeline) when Paul goes on his last known trip to Jerusalem, they seem to be telling the Gentiles the same thing. Also in all the many places Paul tells his readers the whoever is circumcised, he is fallen from grace! In order to fall from grace you had to be in it in the first place I would think. So I may be wrong, but these are Gentiles who are already saved, being told not to be circumcised.

We do have the example of Timothy being circumcised, but I've never heard of a better explanation for this other than it was so that Timothy could participate in things that an uncircumcised man could not, and that he might be more respectable to the other Jews.

I may totally be wrong and if someone disagrees with me please share your understanding of the scriptures.


Well, your first premise regarding Acts 15 is completely wrong.

This stems from the mistaken belief that people make because they try and make Acts 15 about something that it is not.

Instead of trying to "figure out" what Acts 15 is about, why don't we see if scripture itself TELLS us what Acts 15 is all about shall we?

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

So, what we see here is that Acts 15 is about "WHO CAN BE SAVED."

So if you were to become a proselytized what as a goy did you have to do? Well, as a male you had to #1 be circumcised and #2 keep the mitzvot (commandments.) Which explains why those pharisee's who are BELIEVERS state in verse 5 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.

In order to understand act 15, you have to try and put yourself in the place of the first century Jew. That is to say, that ONLY the Jew had a national identification with G-d. No other nation had a covenant with G-d other than Israel. If a Gentile wanted to have a relationship with G-d he HAD to do exactly what the Pharisee's explained. As such it was only natural for them to assume that ONLY the Jew could be saved.

This is further supported by the TESTIMONY that is given by Peter, Paul and Barnabas. What you see in Acts 15 is the Mosaic dispute resolution in action. It was on the mouth of 2 or more witnesses that a matter is established.

Peter, Paul and Barnabas ALL testify that G-d is working among the Gentiles and they are being SAVED.

When you see it from its proper context it all makes sense and there is no conflict. James renders his judgment and when you take ALL of what he says you discover that the setting aside of the Torah is GROSS ERROR.

The things to abstain from; 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from [j]things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

That is a bit of an odd list is it not? Idols, fornication, strangled and blood? What you see are the 4 things that are directly associated with Pagan Idolatry. Animals that were sacrificed to these idols were usually strangled and after the animal is dead they would often drain the blood and drink it. Additionally, temple prostitution was a social norm.

Why this particular sin? Well, Idolatry was the only sin for which Israel was cast out of the land. When an unchurched person comes to Messiah as he or she is being discipled we don't unload everything at once but we start with the more serious sin and they will learn the rest over time by coming to church/synagogue and bible study.

21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since [k]he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
 
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pinacled

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I disagree. Josephus tells us the priests were the head of government as Judges in the beginning, and remained for a very long time.
This IMO agrees with all scripture.

Dt 17:9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:

Paul a pharasee, receiving Letters from the high priest gave him authority. IOW, a decree from the high priest
1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord,
went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

Ac 22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Ac 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.


Ac 28:21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
Governing authorities.
Yes,
Which also reminds me of Romans 13.

I believe what viz was explaining is the apropriate services of the levites, until the garment of ten tribes were removed from yhdh, and levi.
I'm not sure if there are many believers that have studied enough to Lean on the Lord for understanding.

Also, it seems that many have ignored the fact that yochanon is born of levitical parents. And whose birth and later service was significantly an example of sound judgement and resolve.
 
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pinacled

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You are making another false allegation. The Sabbath and moral commands remain. It was the priesthood that was changed and the festivals done away with. To say it is not so is Anti-Christ.
By change of preisthood.
Are you referring to the levites being counted among the tribes in Revelation?

That is probably a subject that needs more than random statements.
A congruent process of mature teaching like road marks throughout the terrain of the Torah.

As for statement of festivals done away with.
No, you are mistaken.
You might as well remove singers from the Body of Messiah.
 
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CherubRam

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Israel was not multinational. The mixed multitude that joined it became Israelites. There were sojourners in the land, but they did not become part of Israel. Often, their children did, becoming Israelites, but then having become Israelites, they weren't another nationality anymore.
Wrong!
 
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CherubRam

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There is more than one place in Genesis that it says "everlasting covenant." You did not reply yet to my quote about circumcision being an everlasting covenant.
Everlasting means continual, that is, unless the covenant should be revoked.
 
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pat34lee

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Again, Jews disagree. Enough said.

Like anything true, it doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees.
Galatians 3:7
Galatians 3:29
Romans 4:16

On circumcision of believers (sons of Abraham)
Genesis 17:10-14
 
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