Messianics who preach circumcision

pat34lee

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The covenant of circumcision was revoked in order to establish the New Covenant. The covenant of circumcision was conditional.

The covenant that Abraham would be the father of many nations will never be revoked.

There was no condition on our part to the
covenant of circumcision. As long as Yahweh
is Elohim, circumcision applies to ALL males
who follow him.

I hope you didn't intend it, but your arguments
call everyone from Abram to Moses and all who
circumcised their children in the bible Judaizers.

Judaizers actually taught salvation through the
act of circumcision and obedience to the law.
They wanted all believers to become Jews and
follow the law before they understood it.
 
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pat34lee

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Why do we to need to move to Israel to be circumcised? That makes absoluetly no sense!
Paul said the Law was good and he kept to it. However, he also believed in Yeshua. What you are quoting is where Paul tells people that if they get circumcised in order to be saved by legalistically following the law, then Yeshua is of no use to them - they will be judged by their obediaence to the last letter of the Law.

True. And if they are circumcised because that
is what the law says, it will not get them into
heaven, but they will be blessed for doing what
is right, and they will gain honor.
Corollary of Matthew 5:19

The one thing I don't want to hear, but so many
Christians will hear it: Matthew 7:23
 
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pat34lee

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There is no Israeli law of return for Gentile believers in Messiah. Believers in Yeshua do not become Israel. That is Replacement Theology - at no time do Gentiles become Jews.

No, they become children of Abraham: Hebrews.
 
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CherubRam

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There is no Israeli law of return for Gentile believers in Messiah. Believers in Yeshua do not become Israel. That is Replacement Theology - at no time do Gentiles become Jews.
Replacement Theology is where the Catholic Church takes the place of Israel and the Rabbi's.
 
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ralliann

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There was no condition on our part to the
covenant of circumcision. As long as Yahweh
is Elohim, circumcision applies to ALL males
who follow him.

I hope you didn't intend it, but your arguments
call everyone from Abram to Moses and all who
circumcised their children in the bible Judaizers.

Judaizers actually taught salvation through the
act of circumcision and obedience to the law.
They wanted all believers to become Jews and
follow the law before they understood it.
Abraham did not have Moses law, that came 430 years after Abraham. Those Abraham circumcised were members of his household. They were not all Hebrews.
 
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Heber Book List

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Replacement Theology is where the Catholic Church takes the place of Israel and the Rabbi's.

What has it to do just Catholics - that ia a mega insult to all Catholics. Many Protestants are more guilty of RT than the Catholics, many, many, many more!

I know you are anti-Catholic but that is taking things far to far.

RT is also where someone declares that Gentiles can become the new Israel, effectively replacing the 'lost' Jews.
 
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Heber Book List

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Abraham did not have Moses law, that came 430 years after Abraham. Those Abraham circumcised were members of his household. They were not all Hebrews.

So how did Noah know what G_d meant when he was told to gather together, in the ark, two of every clean animal?
 
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CherubRam

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What has it to do just Catholics - that ia a mega insult to all Catholics. Many Protestants are more guilty of RT than the Catholics, many, many, many more!

I know you are anti-Catholic but that is taking things far to far.

RT is also where someone declares that Gentiles can become the new Israel, effectively replacing the 'lost' Jews.
I am not aware of any other denomination preaching RT.
 
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Heber Book List

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I am not aware of any other denomination preaching RT.

Oh my! You really should read up on the issue! Peakes' Commentary was widely used in theological colleges in the 60's and is still used in some - it says within its covers, quite literally, that the Church is the new Israel and has inherited all of Israel's blessings (but, strangely, it says nothing about accepting Israel's curses!). Some Methodist, Baptist, Reformed, FIEC, Anglican, Catholic, Pentecostal etc etc etc., believe this rubbish, and their theology shows it. One doesn't have to preach on it - it shows in other ways, too. It is little more prevalent in Liberal congregations, but certainly not unknown in many evangelical congregations.

Suggested reading:

Horner, B. Future Israel B&H Academic TN 2007

Jacob, A. The Case For Enlargement Theology Glory to Glory Publications Essex UK 2010

Kessler, E. & Wenborn N. A Dictionary of Jewish - Christian Relations Cambridge University Press NY 2008 [Pages 375-6]

Soulen, R.K. The God of Israel and Christian Theology Fortress Press MN 1996 [it is called Supercessionism in this book]

there are many more books on the subject. The above books have been listed on the sticky of this forum for years!! If the leader is taught it, and his theology is based on it, the congregation will believe it, and tell others.

RT is not permitted on MJ fora.
 
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CherubRam

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Oh my! You really should read up on the issue! Peakes' Commentary was widely used in theological colleges in the 60's and is still used in some - it says within its covers, quite literally, that the Church is the new Israel and has inherited all of Israel's blessings (but, strangely, it says nothing about accepting Israel's curses!). Some Methodist, Baptist, Reformed, FIEC, Anglican, Catholic, Pentecostal etc etc etc., believe this rubbish, and their theology shows it. One doesn't have to preach on it - it shows in other ways, too. It is little more prevalent in Liberal congregations, but certainly not unknown in many evangelical congregations.

Suggested reading:

Horner, B. Future Israel B&H Academic TN 2007

Jacob, A. The Case For Enlargement Theology Glory to Glory Publications Essex UK 2010

Kessler, E. & Wenborn N. A Dictionary of Jewish - Christian Relations Cambridge University Press NY 2008 [Pages 375-6]

Soulen, R.K. The God of Israel and Christian Theology Fortress Press MN 1996 [it is called Supercessionism in this book]

there are many more books on the subject. The above books have been listed on the sticky of this forum for years!! If the leader is taught it, and his theology is based on it, the congregation will believe it, and tell others.

RT is not permitted on MJ fora.




Congregations that believe in Replacement Theology

The Roman Catholic Church – 66,407,105

Seventh Day Adventist – 19,126,438

The United Methodist Church – 8,251,042

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – 5,410,544

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America – 5,038,006

Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) – 3,407,329

The Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod – 2,512,714

African Methodist Episcopal Church – 2,500,000

The Episcopal Church – 2,333,628

Churches of Christ, Corsicana, Texas – 1,500,000

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America – 1,500,000

African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church – 1,430,795

United Church of Christ – 1,330,985

Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, Joplin, Mo. – 1,071,616

Jehovah’s Witnesses – 1,022,397
 
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Heber Book List

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Congregations that believe in Replacement Theology

The Roman Catholic Church – 66,407,105

Seventh Day Adventist – 19,126,438

The United Methodist Church – 8,251,042

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – 5,410,544

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America – 5,038,006

Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) – 3,407,329

The Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod – 2,512,714

African Methodist Episcopal Church – 2,500,000

The Episcopal Church – 2,333,628

Churches of Christ, Corsicana, Texas – 1,500,000

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America – 1,500,000

African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church – 1,430,795

United Church of Christ – 1,330,985

Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, Joplin, Mo. – 1,071,616

Jehovah’s Witnesses – 1,022,397

and 10s of 1000's more around the world!

Your titlle is incorrect - they are denomination names, not congregation names :)
 
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Heber Book List

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Although Replacement Theology is not correct, there still remains the fact that the Old Covenant has been revoked.

That statement is contrary to MJ rules, and it is not true.
 
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Heber Book List

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The correct word for the administrative entity is Denomination - you listed the Denominations, each of which had oversight over xxxxx number of local CONGREGATIONS or CHURCHES. Congregation and Denomination are not the same.
 
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CherubRam

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That statement is contrary to MJ rules, and it is not true.
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant

Zechariah 11:7-11. Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant.


Zechariah 11
7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]

The Sadducees were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducees, and Pharisees.
 
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CherubRam

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The correct word for the administrative entity is Denomination - you listed the Denominations, each of which had oversight over xxxxx number of local CONGREGATIONS or CHURCHES. Congregation and Denomination are not the same.
Titles of the Denominations is to identify the Congregations.
 
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Heber Book List

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Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant

Zechariah 11:7-11. Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant.


Zechariah 11
7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]

The Sadducees were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducees, and Pharisees.

It is usually best to read the rules before posting!

Non-negotiable points:
  • No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or against Yeshua as Messiah**
  • No replacement theology. No posts teaching or debating that the Church/Christians have replaced Israel or the Jewish people.
  • No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, Torah has been made invalid for today, or Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them. It's not permitted to tell members to keep the Universal (Noachide) laws or not to keep Shabbat.
I didn't write the rules so you had best shout at somone else.
 
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Heber Book List

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Titles of the Denominations is to identify the Congregations.


That is what I said - that you listed the denominations, not the local Church or Congregation
 
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