Messianics who preach circumcision

[31gH9N.9.]

I've ran into a few teachings on this sunject recently, and it has left me wondering how this is justified by someone who believes the New Testament. They say that Christians actually should get circumcised as an act of obedience, yet I am not convinced that this is what the New Testament teaches.

In Acts 15 the council in Jerusalem concludes that circumcision is unnecessary for the Gentiles, and then maybe 10 years later, ( according to one timeline) when Paul goes on his last known trip to Jerusalem, they seem to be telling the Gentiles the same thing. Also in all the many places Paul tells his readers the whoever is circumcised, he is fallen from grace! In order to fall from grace you had to be in it in the first place I would think. So I may be wrong, but these are Gentiles who are already saved, being told not to be circumcised.

We do have the example of Timothy being circumcised, but I've never heard of a better explanation for this other than it was so that Timothy could participate in things that an uncircumcised man could not, and that he might be more respectable to the other Jews.

I may totally be wrong and if someone disagrees with me please share your understanding of the scriptures.

 

[CherubRam]

I've ran into a few teachings on this sunject recently, and it has left me wondering how this is justified by someone who believes the New Testament. They say that Christians actually should get circumcised as an act of obedience, yet I am not convinced that this is what the New Testament teaches.

In Acts 15 the council in Jerusalem concludes that circumcision is unnecessary for the Gentiles, and then maybe 10 years later, ( according to one timeline) when Paul goes on his last known trip to Jerusalem, they seem to be telling the Gentiles the same thing. Also in all the many places Paul tells his readers the whoever is circumcised, he is fallen from grace! In order to fall from grace you had to be in it in the first place I would think. So I may be wrong, but these are Gentiles who are already saved, being told not to be circumcised.

We do have the example of Timothy being circumcised, but I've never heard of a better explanation for this other than it was so that Timothy could participate in things that an uncircumcised man could not, and that he might be more respectable to the other Jews.

I may totally be wrong and if someone disagrees with me please share your understanding of the scriptures.

The covenant of circumcision was revoked in order to establish the New Covenant. The covenant of circumcision was conditional.

Revoked Covenant and Converts

The mission was to convert the NATIONS to Judaism.

Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.


Genesis 17:10
This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.


Genesis 17:12
For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.

Foreigners—those who are not Abraham’s offspring were also included in the covenant.

Zech 11:10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]



Genesis 17:13
Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

Forever is forever, unless something should change that; like a revoked covenant.



Genesis 17:14
Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”


Genesis 17:23
On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him.

Abraham also had people from other nations living with him.




Genesis 17:4
“As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.


Genesis 17:5
No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

The covenant that Abraham would be the father of many nations will never be revoked.

 

[31gH9N.9.]

Thanks for the response CherubRam

Forever is forever, unless something should change that; like a revoked covenant.

This is interesting that you say that, Can you present any more examples of this happening in Scripture. Usually when I read that something is to be observed forever, then I interpret it that the party that is to keep or observe it forever must do so and can also return to that after maybe turning aside for a time.

Also...

Genesis 17:12
For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.

Foreigners—those who are not Abraham’s offspring were also included in the covenant.

Zech 11:10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]

I have never really thought of the covenant made with all the nations refering to the circumcision. I've actually only read that passage once and I'm not sure what I though about it, I probably set it aside for the time. In Gen 17:12, I see that as only refering to foriegners sold into Abraham's household, and not all of the nations.

 

[CherubRam]

The Grafted Branch of Israel.



Yahshua said we are a grafted BRANCH into Israel; that means that Christians are now Israel in the new covenant. The elect have become the seed of Abraham by election and not birth.

Jeremiah 31:31 "The time is coming", declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel." See also: Gen 35:10-11, Ex 20:8-10, Lev 19:34, Isa 9:3, Isa 26:15, Isa 44:5, Isa 46:13, Isa 56:3-6-8, Isa 62:2, Isa 65:15, and the examples go on.

John 1:12- "sons of God"
John 11:52- "gathering together in one the children of God."
Rom 8:14-16- "are the children of God"
2Cr 6:18- "shall be my sons and daughters"
Gal 4:5-7- "heir of God through Christ"
1John 3:2- "we should be called sons of God."
Rom 9:6-7- "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"
Gal 4:25-30.."are the children of promise"
Gal 3:7.."which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham"
Gal 3:29.."And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
2Cr 6:16.."I will be their God and they shall be my people."
Eph 2:12-19.."That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, (enmity means hostility) [even / toward] the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of [twain / us] one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the [cross / stake], having slain the enmity (hostility) thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were far away, and to them that were near. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

1Peter 2:9. "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, and holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
Which in time past (were not) a people, but (are now) the people of God: which hand not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

John 17:22.."And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."



• Isaiah 4:2
[ The Branch of the LORD ] In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel.

• Isaiah 11:1
[ The Branch From Jesse ] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

• Jeremiah 23:5
“The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.

• Jeremiah 33:15
“‘In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the land.

• Zechariah 3:8
“‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

• Zechariah 6:12
Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD.

• John 15:1
[ The Vine and the Branches ] “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

• John 15:2
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

• John 15:4
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

• John 15:5
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

• John 15:6
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

• Romans 11:11
[ Ingrafted Branches ] Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

• Romans 11:16
If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

• Romans 11:17
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

• Romans 11:18
do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

• Romans 11:19
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”

• Romans 11:21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

• Romans 11:24
After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

 

[Kevin Snow]

What did the council of all the disciples agree on in terms of this argument, for the Gentiles?

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. ~Acts 15:28-29

But what did the council of all the disciples agree for the Jews?

take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law. ~Acts 21:24

What we can understand from this is that the law still stands for those who are in Israel, who are of Israel. It was given only to Israel as a testimony to the nations. But this law does not save anyone. Being an Israelite does not mean you have salvation. That's the only difference. So what does the law require to become an Israelite?

For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you, a statute forever throughout your generations. You and the sojourner shall be alike before the Lord. One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.
~Numbers 15:15-16

So we see that it is through circumcision that one becomes an Israelite. And it was thought that the Gentiles were saved and brought into being Abraham's offspring by this means but God only commanded that we be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is for salvation what circumcision is for becoming an Israelite. So if you want to be an Israelite in Israel you will need to be circumcised according to the law but it has nothing to do with salvation.

There are specific laws which have changed even for the Israelites. But I'm trying to keep this brief. It is a quick explanation of the situation.

 

[CherubRam]

Psalm 78:10
they did not keep God’s covenant and refused to live by his law.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Psalm 78:56
But they put God to the test and rebelled against the Most High; they did not keep his statutes.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Jeremiah 11:8
But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubbornness of their evil hearts. So I brought on them all the curses of the covenant I had commanded them to follow but that they did not keep.’”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Deuteronomy 28:15
[ Curses for Disobedience ] However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Deuteronomy 28:20
The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Deuteronomy 28:45
All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Deuteronomy 29:20
The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[CherubRam]

What did the council of all the disciples agree on in terms of this argument, for the Gentiles?

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. ~Acts 15:28-29

But what did the council of all the disciples agree for the Jews?

take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law. ~Acts 21:24

What we can understand from this is that the law still stands for those who are in Israel, who are of Israel. It was given only to Israel as a testimony to the nations. But this law does not save anyone. Being an Israelite does not mean you have salvation. That's the only difference. So what does the law require to become an Israelite?

For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you, a statute forever throughout your generations. You and the sojourner shall be alike before the Lord. One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.
~Numbers 15:15-16

So we see that it is through circumcision that one becomes an Israelite. And it was thought that the Gentiles were saved and brought into being Abraham's offspring by this means but God only commanded that we be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is for salvation what circumcision is for becoming an Israelite. So if you want to be an Israelite in Israel you will need to be circumcised according to the law but it has nothing to do with salvation.

There are specific laws which have changed even for the Israelites. But I'm trying to keep this brief. It is a quick explanation of the situation.

From 30 AD to 70 AD it was a transitional period. The men who were circumcised did so to draw attention away from Paul. Paul was indeed preaching non-circumcision.

 

[Heber Book List]

The Grafted Branch of Israel.



Yahshua said we are a grafted BRANCH into Israel; that means that Christians are now Israel in the new covenant. The elect have become the seed of Abraham by election and not birth.

That is replacement theology - Gentiles do not become Israel in a new covenant. What it means is that G_d treats us the same, regardless as to whether we are Jews or Gentiles, slave or free, male or female. Today, we have Jews and Gentiles, men and women, slaves and free - but those categories do not change how G_d deals with us, neither does it make us all Jews, all Gentiles, all men, all women, all slaves or all free. The tree is a metaphor, not intended as practical gardening advice.

What we all are is G_d's people - all who believe in the G_d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and G_d's only begotten Son, Yeshua, and the Ruach HaKodesh, joined together by / in Him.

 

[Kevin Snow]

From 30 AD to 70 AD it was a transitional period. The men who were circumcised did so to draw attention away from Paul. Paul was indeed preaching non-circumcision.

Right but he still lived in observance of the law. He didn't want the Gentiles to get into it but he himself still lived in observance of the law. The law and Israel are inseparable.

 

[visionary]

Right but he still lived in observance of the law. He didn't want the Gentiles to get into it but he himself still lived in observance of the law. The law and Israel are inseparable.

Since the enmity "between" gentile and jew are gone, the inclusion and exclusion are gone. The covenant of God rules over all HIS people. Circumcision is a sign of the covenant. It is nothing more than a ring is for marriage. It is symbolic of the conviction of the heart. Paul is not for outward displays and makes a lot of noise against those who do things without the inward changes. Paul is not against the covenant rules of God. He is against using them without the heart convictions.

 

[Kevin Snow]

Since the enmity "between" gentile and jew are gone, the inclusion and exclusion are gone. The covenant of God rules over all HIS people. Circumcision is a sign of the covenant. It is nothing more than a ring is for marriage. It is symbolic of the conviction of the heart. Paul is not for outward displays and makes a lot of noise against those who do things without the inward changes. Paul is not against the covenant rules of God. He is against using them without the heart convictions.

Circumcision is not what was commanded by Yahshua Christ but he said to baptize. It sounds like you are saying circumcision is necessary for the Gentiles. I just listed in my first post why that's not the case.

 

[visionary]

Circumcision is not what was commanded by Yahshua Christ but he said to baptize. It sounds like you are saying circumcision is necessary for the Gentiles. I just listed in my first post why that's not the case.

And I am saying you are missing the reason for Paul's argument. It is not the covenant sign he is against, it is the misuse of it. Get the heart right and then the covenant sign makes sense.

 

[Heber Book List]

Circumcision is not what was commanded by Yahshua Christ but he said to baptize. It sounds like you are saying circumcision is necessary for the Gentiles. I just listed in my first post why that's not the case.

Baptism was not an option in Yeshua's day. Bodily immersion was normal for several reasons. The concept of Baptism is a church thing, not a Jewish thing; Yeshua was a Jew.

 

[tampasteve]

And you are just plain insane. Ever hear of John the Baptist?! Baptism is a common Jewish theme and all the disciples were baptized. The entire early church, all the church was BAPTIZED.

Speaking as a member, not mod.

First, calling someone insane is against forum rules.

Second, "John the Baptist" was not his name, he likely was known as Yohan the Immerser, similar to "Baptist" but not the same. Immersing in water was and is a common element of Jewish ritual. To convert to Judaism gentiles must immerse fully in a Mikvah. Jewish people use Mikvahs for a number of reasons then as well as now. The act that John was doing would have been familiar to people listening or following him, it would not have been new. Now, the reason he was saying to immerse was something new, and this is what The Way which developed into Christianity has continued. That said, scripture is clear that to be followers of Yeshua we must immerse in the way that has been handed down.

 

[Heber Book List]

No, he was against circumcision for Gentiles! He was against it at all. He said,

Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. ~Galatians 5:2

There is NO condition like, "oh have a good heart with it." You are mistaken BIG time. Circumcision is given for ISRAEL and ISRAEL only. You want to be circumcised then move to Israel. Circumcision means you are obligated to keep the whole law. And Paul kept the whole law but he said all that was nothing in comparison to knowing Yahshua his Lord.



And you are just plain insane. Ever hear of John the Baptist?! Baptism is a common Jewish theme and all the disciples were baptized. The entire early church, all the church was BAPTIZED.

Why do we to need to move to Israel to be circumcised? That makes absoluetly no sense!
Paul said the Law was good and he kept to it. However, he also believed in Yeshua. What you are quoting is where Paul tells people that if they get circumcised in order to be saved by legalistically following the law, then Yeshua is of no use to them - they will be judged by their obediaence to the last letter of the Law.

 

[visionary]

staff edit

First off, I am female. Second off, Circumcision does not have any advantage without Christ. Circumcision is a covenant sign that you are in His kingdom, with all its laws. And Yes, all those who worship God, are lawful believers.

 

[tampasteve]

MOD HAT ON
Let us all keep the rules of this group in mind:

• No replacement theology. No posts teaching or debating that the Church/Christians have replaced Israel or the Jewish people.
• Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.
• Congregational Rules: Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

And general rules:

• Please treat all members with respect and courtesy through civil dialogue.
• Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[Heber Book List]

All y'all. How about it?

Bapism is exclusively Christian- it did not exist in Yeshua's time. That is why it says there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Immersion, as Visionary has correctly pointed out, has a number of purposes, one of which is to immerse in a ritual bath for cleansing prior to meeting with G_d in the Temple.

The two have very different purposes and should never be confused with each other.

 

[ralliann]

First off, I am female. Second off, Circumcision does not have any advantage without Christ. Circumcision is a covenant sign that you are in His kingdom, with all its laws. And Yes, all those who worship God, are lawful believers.

Circumcision of the heart is for male and female. Which things were shadows of things in Christ. Moses law was 430 after Abraham, and he did not walk in Levitical law, nor was the priesthood the Levites under the order of Aaron.
Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
The common Israelites were not priests.

 

[visionary]

Not so. John did not Baptise - John immersed the people. Flowing water is often a metaphor for the Law, John was immersing the people in water as a means of showing them their sin of ignoring the Law and making them repent of this si, hence the immersion of repentance. Baptism, as a word, was written back into our scriptures, it was not available in Yeshua's time.

If I could hit winner again and again... I would be going "ding ding ding cha ching over and over again.

The word baptism comes from the Greek word baptizó, which primarily means a thorough change of condition accomplished through immersion. It is written in Bibles to take the place of the Hebrew word tevilah (to totally immerse). Tevilah (full-body immersion) marks a change of status from being tamay to tahor—ritually unclean (impure or unfit for the presence of God) to ritually clean.This is necessary because anytime a person is to come into the presence of God, they must come tahor (pure). This is where the spiritual significance of what John, the Baptist was doing, and brought convictions to the heart of the hearers.

This ritual immersion in water is carried out in a mikvah, which is a Hebrew word meaning gathering of waters. For the observant Jew, the mikvah personifies both the womb and the grave and consequently, rebirth. It is regarded as a pure, unadulterated avenue of connection with God; and for that reason, it is a place where hope is reawakened as in born again and strengthened.

1 Peter 3:21 “the waters of immersion is not the removal of dirt from the body, but one’s pledge to keep a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah.”

Ezekiel 36:24 “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.”

When Gentile converts go down into the waters of the mikvah, they leave behind their pagan ways—symbolically dying to their old life and come up out of the water as a newborn child with an entirely new identity in Judaism via Yeshua. They are in essence reborn.

The Talmud (oral law) states, “When he comes up after his immersion, he is deemed an Israelite in all respects.” (Yevamot 47b) The term “born again” originated in Judaism.

Understanding that the term “born again” referred to a conversion to Judaism sheds light on the conversation between Yeshua and Nicodemus. John 3:4 How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?

From his Jewish perspective, Nicodemus was asking, “How can I convert to Judaism if I am already a Jew?” Yeshua answered, “A man must be born of water and spirit.” (John 3:5) He was explaining to Nicodemus that you cannot rely on “Jewishness” to enter the kingdom of heaven. A conversion of our spiritual condition is necessary for salvation. This is also true of those who think "Christianity" or some Church is the boat to salvation and all they have to do is get in it.

Judaism regards the mikvah as a symbolic expression of rebirth. The mikvah represents the mother’s womb, which is called in Hebrew rechem. This comes from the same root as the Hebrew word for mercy (rahamah). Immersing fully into the waters of the mikvah is like re-entering the womb, the place of mercy; of God’s creative power. Emerging from the mikvah is like being born again.

Immersion in a mikvah also represents death and resurrection. A person under water enters a death-like state, like a person descending into a grave. When he comes back out of the water, he comes back to life as a new creation.

When we are immersed into Yeshua, our Messiah, we also become a new creation..
2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Messiah, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” ...because we are now going to start living like Him.

Paul understood this death and rebirth imagery of the immersion and compared it to the death and resurrection of Yeshua.

Romans 6:3 Don’t you know that all of us who were immersed into Messiah Yeshua were immersed into His death? We were therefore buried with Him through baptism [immersion or mikvah] into death in order that, just as Messiah was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.