To Be Kept In Eternity

[tall73]

Indeed so how does that support your theory that there is no moon in the new earlth when God's Word says there is?

You haven't apparently figured out that Isaiah describes Levites, restoration of people from captivity, People living as long as trees then dying, etc.

That is not heaven. That was the promise of restoration after God's judgment on the earth at that time which shook the heavens and earth. He then says he makes a new heaven and new earth and describes the restoration of Israel.

But in John's reality we don't have a Levitical priesthood. We have the Lamb Himself with us, no need of a temple. We don't live as long as a tree, we live forever. We don't just receive comfort from the captivity of Israel, but the whole world is restored.

John adapts the figurative language of Isaiah to describe the captivity and shows how it applies more so to the end of time restoration of all things.

Is everything in the book of revelations literal? Does a beast represent a beast? Is a dragon a dragon? Does the harlot represent a harlot? Does Babylon represent the country? Is a lamb a lamb? Who is the bride?

Is everything figurative? Is there no heavenly city? Is there no living forever? Is there no throne of God where the Almighty and the Lamb are present? Is there no place where the wicked cannot go (or are the wicked living 100 years in your "heaven").

By the end of the book there is little need for figures any longer. And it is clear he adopts the language and promises of Isaiah, and expands it far beyond that of Isaiah.

 

[tall73]

Something we agree on. I think all can see who has God's WORD on their side.

Yes, because you are the one arguing that Revelation cannot mean what it says because it doesn't agree with what Ellen White said.

You are the one arguing for a heaven with children dying, with sinners living 100 years, with Levites ministering with priests, and with those who were captive among the gentiles coming back, being carried by those nations.

You are the one arguing against God dwelling with His people and no longer needing a temple after He has put an end to sin.

 

[tall73]

I am ...

Well it shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Ellen says there is a temple after sin is dealt with, and Revelation says there is no temple because the Almighty and the Lamb are the temple.


I can't agree with Ellen when she contradicts God's word.

 

[tall73]

Indeed so how does that support your theory that there is no moon in the new earlth when God's Word says there is?

John says there is not one.

You might want to figure out why Isaiah's new earth has children dying, wicked living to 100, Levites, etc.

But we have mentioned that already. It was talking about restoration after the judgment on the earth at that time.

I think I like John's better.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You haven't apparently figured out that Isaiah describes Levites, restoration of people from captivity, People living as long as trees then dying, etc.

We may have to agree to disagree as to your teaching. All I can see in your teaching is that you teach it is ok to keep 9 Commandments and break one. When God's WORD teaches if we break one we stand before God guilty of breaking break them all (James 2:8-12).

Right away when someone teaches this it should set off warning bells to those who believe God's WORD because it is written...

1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

By the end of the book there is little need for figures any longer. And it is clear he adopts the language and promises of Isaiah, and expands it far beyond that of Isaiah.

So your saying that John changes his writing style to suit your teaching in Revelations 22 but not in the rest of the book of Revelation?

I do agree with you that there is literal mixed in with spiritual some more and less in different areas of Revelations but you can't have it both ways..

It is only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD through FAITH that enter in God's city, the bride is still there (Revelations 22:17) so is the lamb (v3) and the light (v5), those who are thirsty are called to come (what are they to drink?), Jesus is a root (v16)

...................

REVELATION 22:1-2 [1], And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2], In the middle of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bore twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

links to..

ISAIAH 66:22-23 [22], For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, said the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23], And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, said the LORD.

who will gather before him?

REVELATIONS 22:14 [14], Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You can see here that the tree of life yeilds its fruit once a month v2. Isaiah 66:22-24 says that this is when God's people will meet with God in the NEW EARTH and in Rvelations 22:14 God's people are descibed as those who keep God's Commandments. This includes the 4th Commandment which is one of the 10 that is continued to be kept in the NEW EARTH along with the NEW MOON (Isaiah 66:22-24)

Can you see the problem you are facing by rejecting God's 4th Commandment?

................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

 

[tall73]

We may have to agree to disagree as to your teaching. All I can see in your teaching is that you teach it is ok to keep 9 Commandments and break one. When God's WORD teaches if we break one we stand before God guilty of breaking break them all (James 2:8-12).

Right away when someone teaches this it should set off warning bells to those who believe God's WORD because it is written...

1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I already mentioned the Sabbath did not pass away. Jesus kept it, Paul kept it, the whole Jerusalem church kept it.

But that is a different thread for a different time.

So your saying that John changes his writing style to suit your teaching in Revelations 22 but not in the rest of the book of Revelation?

No, I am saying there is no need to hide in symbols the last portion of the book.

I do agree with you that there is literal mixed in with spiritual some more and less in different areas of Revelations but you can't have it both ways..

I think it makes sense to take it literally unless there is reason not to. Many things are definitely symbols. Why would the final restoration of God need to be in symbols? There are reasons for the other to be, and God spells out parts of it, enough to build our faith. But then when He speaks of our eventual restoration, there is no need to take that as figurative.

By the way, did you notice Ellen still agreed there was fruit on that tree of life, just like Revelation pointed out? Did you notice she said it was in the city, just like Revelation did? Apparently she took some of it as literal too.

The tree of life yeilds it's fruit every month when we are commanded to meet with God in the NEW earth (Isaiah 66:22-24; Revelations 22:2).

You just squished those together. Your new earth has children dying. Sounds different than John's.

Are you adding or taking away or adding to the book of Revelations (v18-19)?

I would say adding a vision of children with wings and a temple that is not mentioned, and the like is adding. I am actually the one arguing for taking it as it reads if you recall.

 

[tall73]

We may have to agree to disagree as to your teaching. All I can see in your teaching is that you teach it is ok to keep 9 Commandments and break one. When God's WORD teaches if we break one we stand before God guilty of breaking break them all (James 2:8-12).

Right away when someone teaches this it should set off warning bells to those who believe God's WORD because it is written...

1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



So your saying that John changes his writing style to suit your teaching in Revelations 22 but not in the rest of the book of Revelation?

I do agree with you that there is literal mixed in with spiritual some more and less in different areas of Revelations but you can't have it both ways..

It is only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD through FAITH that enter in God's city, the bride is still (Revelations 22:17) there is also the lamb (v3) and the light (v5), those who are thirsty are called to come (what are they to drink?), Jesus is a root (v16)

...................

REVELATION 22:1-2 [1], And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2], In the middle of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bore twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

links to..

ISAIAH 66:22-23 [22], For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, said the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23], And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, said the LORD.

who will gather before him?

REVELATIONS 22:14 [14], Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You can see here that the tree of life yeilds its fruit once a month v2. Isaiah 66:22-24 says that this is when God's people will meet with God in the NEW EARTH and in Rvelations 22:14 God's people are descibed as those who keep God's Commandments. This includes the 4th Commandment which is one of the 10 that is continued to be kept in the NEW EARTH along with the NEW MOON (Isaiah 66:22-24)

Can you see the problem you are facing by rejecting God's 4th Commandment?

................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

I very much believe we must keep His commandments. He had more than ten.

But the whole question of what we must keep is what we are discussing.

 

[tall73]

We may have to agree to disagree as to your teaching.

Well as long as you are teaching, I am willing to listen to a few points.

a. Why do we need Levites in your new earth?
b. Why will children die?
c. Why will sinners live 100 years in your new earth?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I very much believe we must keep His commandments. He had more than ten.

But the whole question of what we must keep is what we are discussing.

So maybe I am confused as to what your teaching? You keep God's 4th Commandment Sabbath?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Well as long as you are teaching, I am willing to listen to a few points.

a. Why do we need Levites in your new earth?
b. Why will children die?
c. Why will sinners live 100 years in your new earth?

I am not teaching only shaing God's WORD. GOd is our teacher and we should Believe and Follow his Word. Not everything in Isaiah 66 is in relation to the NEW Heavens and earth. Much of it is talking about the 2nd coming.

 

[tall73]

I am not teaching only shaing God's WORD. GOd is our teacher and we should Believe and Follow his Word. Not everything in Isaiah 66 is in relation to the NEW Heavens and earth. Much of it is talking about the 2nd coming.

So wait a second, you want to have it both ways and only apply it to your teaching? Isn't that what you said to me?

So you recognize that heaven does not have kids dying, Levites working the temple, etc.

Then you might want to rethink why you have put your hopes on this as a description of the new earth when it is pretty clear what is going on there is not going to be happening after the second coming.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So wait a second, you want to have it both ways and only apply it to your teaching? Isn't that what you said to me?

So you recognize that heaven does not have kids dying, Levites working the temple, etc.

Then you might want to rethink why you have put your hopes on this as a description of the new earth when it is pretty clear what is going on there is not going to be happening after the second coming.

Well that is not true at all. I am not the one teaching against God's 4th Commandment you are.

God's Word is very clear who his people are that will be entering in through the gates into the city and will be eating of the tree of life which bears it's fruit once a month when we are commanded to come before God. It is those who keep God's Commandments.

Which ever way you wich to say it. The only test is if you are of those who God's WORD describes as his people (Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-9)

Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

 

[tall73]

So maybe I am confused as to what your teaching? You keep God's 4th Commandment Sabbath?

I still am convinced that the Jewish believers kept all the law, even after Jesus died. Acts 21 spells that out. The sabbath is still there. And so are the laws regarding oaths in Matthew, and divorce, etc. Those were not from the 10, but from the law. And He said He did not come to do away with it.

I Corinthians 5 spells out that incest is still wrong, again a reference to the law in Leviticus. In his description of homosexual behavior Paul uses a word derived from the teaching in Leviticus.

In describing honoring parents Paul said to honor father and mother, the first command with a promise. But he did recast the promise a bit. Instead of being in the land the Lord God gave you (promised land, in context with covenant of Israel), he indicated long life.

Paul affirms in Timothy that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, noting that it is not for the righteous, but it condemns sinners.

As to your question, at this time I am not convinced that the gentiles were required to keep the sabbath. But I am still mulling things over.

Either way the law did not pass away. It was fulfilled.

The sanctuary was destroyed, which made a lot of the law less than applicable. But up until that point they were offering sacrifices such as Paul did for vows, etc. But they did so recognizing that Jesus was the fulfillment and true Sacrifice.

Paul also references trying to get back for a feast. James says that the whole Jerusalem church was zealous for the law. They continued living as Jews, but spelled out they did not require gentiles to become Jews.

Now your position is that gentiles do have to keep the Sabbath. You may convince me of that in time. But saying I am ignoring God when I am trying to understand what He is saying is not accurate.

I left the Adventist church after years of studying because I did not see it matching up with Scripture in all regards. I was willing to change despite family, friends, and of course the random internet folks calling me lost or heretic etc.

If you wish to say I am wrong, well I may be. And hopefully if so the Lord will make that clear to me. But I would not suggest judging another man's servant.

 

[tall73]

Well that is not true at all. I am not the one teaching against God's 4th Commandment you are.

So if I understand correctly, you have no need to explain the actual content of Isaiah 65 and 66 and can disregard the parts you don't like because....of my views of the Sabbath.

You are going to have to explain the connection.

 

[tall73]

Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

But you haven't explained why Isaiah says what it does. You only said that not everything applies to the new heavens and earth.

What does your saying some of it does and some of it doesn't have to do with me?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

As to your question, at this time I am not convinced that the gentiles were required to keep the sabbath. But I am still mulling things over. Either way the law did not pass away. It was fulfilled.

Please forgive me tall, I think maybe I misunderstood what you are talking about and your position here. This is my mistake not yours.

Now your position is that gentiles do have to keep the Sabbath. You may convince me of that in time. But saying I am ignoring God when I am trying to understand what He is saying is not accurate.

Once again my apologies. I should have asked you what is your position from the begining. Hope you can forgive me.

I left the Adventist church after years of studying because I did not see it matching up with Scripture in all regards. I was willing to change despite family, friends, and of course the random internet folks calling me lost or heretic etc.

If you wish to say I am wrong, well I may be. And hopefully if so the Lord will make that clear to me. But I would not suggest judging another man's servant.

Thanks very much for this post. It has really helped me to understand your position further. Fogive me for my assumptions.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

But you haven't explained why Isaiah says what it does. You only said that not everything applies to the new heavens and earth.

What does your saying some of it does and some of it doesn't have to do with me?

For me I do not prefess to know everying in God's WORD. I do not think anyone does. As our Lord says; as the heavens are higher then the earth... One thing we have on common is that I seek God in prayer for his Spirit that I may know his Word. This is also a part of the NEW Covenant promise that all may know him

 

[tall73]

Please forgive me tall, I think maybe I misunderstood what you are talking about.



Once again my apologies. I should have asked you what is your position from the begining. Hope you can forgive me.



Thanks very much for this post. It has really helped me to understand your position further. Fogive me for my assumptions.

It is alright. The internet is prone to such things. Here we are all trying to make sure we are following God. But we do not agree, so at least one must be wrong. If you go back and look I argued for the very positions you hold for years on these forums. So I understand wanting to share your convinced understanding.

It has been a long road trying to figure things out. I was an Adventist minister for a decade, and did not want to leave at all. I loved the people, loved the work, and loved the Adventist church as well.

But I could not stay and collect a check and call myself an Adventist if I did not accept all the fundamental beliefs. I do want to follow Christ. Though even in the things I do know for sure I still stumble, and am learning to walk in His Spirit.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

But you haven't explained why Isaiah says what it does. You only said that not everything applies to the new heavens and earth.

This is true I have only been focusing on Isaiah 66:22-23 and linking it into Revelations 22:1-2; 14. I see strong links here and the reason for the New moons being kept in the NEW earth. Also I outlined the Shadows of the New Moon sacrifices from the Old Covenant as to why we do not keep the New moon in post # 18 earlier. This has been my focus for the OP here.

 

[tall73]

This is true I have only been focusing on Isaiah 66:22-23 and linking it into Revelations 22:1-2; 14. I see strong links here and the reason for the New moons being kept in the NEW earth. Also I outlined the Shadows of the New Moon sacrifices from the Old Covenant as to why we do not keep the New moon in post # 18 earlier. This has been my focus for the OP here.

Well of course I agree we do not keep the new moon at this time. Though if someone wanted to, I would see no harm in it, as long as they recognize that it is fulfilled in Christ.

As to whether we do later, that I am not sure. Certainly the monthly fruit of the tree of life is there. If it has some connection to the new moon, I wish it were better spelled out.