A Letter to Islam - Your Critique, please!

[Godistruth1]

while you are correct that He would not inspire contradictions, what you are neglecting is that He inspired different authors to write to different audiences. which means the contradictions you noted might not actually be contradictions.

You have not taken a look at the contradictions I suppose. Bible can't attribute different father's to one person or different figures for same event etc

 

[4x4toy]

You have not taken a look at the contradictions I suppose. Bible can't attribute different father's to one person or different figures for same event etc

No contradictions in my Bible

 

[Godistruth1]

No contradictions in my Bible

I'm not going to debate because I already have many times. Just sharing the link for you to research
101 Contradictions in the Bible.

 

[4x4toy]

I'm not going to debate because I already have many times. Just sharing the link for you to research
101 Contradictions in the Bible.

You have nothing

 

[Light of the East]

You have nothing

This is not a reply. This is not apologia. If you have something to say, say it in a Christlike manner and give the proofs you have.

You will not convince people by insult.

 

[Lukaris]

How many additional hadiths ( or whatever their called) supplement the Koran? How reliable are Hadith? Some are contradictory.

How many of these hadths are traditions of men? St. Paul is an apostle of the Lord ( Acts of the Apostles 9 ). The book of Acts is written by St. Luke of which his Gospel is Biblical. He was a companion to Paul who was directly called by the Lord to preach to the Gentiles.

The Gospel does not teach slaughtering innocent civilians or plundering livestock ( Luke 9:51-56 ). The Old Testament is often hard to understand but the Lord affirms it ( Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:36-40, Luke 24:44-49 ) we put our faith in Him and His commandments say to love God & neighbor.

The Lord also says not to put on a prideful pretense of prayer outside of worship in His house ( Matthew 6:5-15 ) like this:
muslims praying in public - Google Search

The Lord also says we should fast in humility ( Matthew 6:16-18 ).

We do not worship the Mother of God, the mother of the Man who God chose to be Himself incarnate in the world ( John 1:1-18 ). We honor Her as the Lord told us to ( John 19:25-27 ).

 

[4x4toy]

This is not a reply. This is not apologia. If you have something to say, say it in a Christlike manner and give the proofs you have.

You will not convince people by insult.

That wasn't an insult

 

[Godistruth1]

How many additional hadiths ( or whatever their called) supplement the Koran? How reliable are Hadith? Some are contradictory.

How many of these hadths are traditions of men? St. Paul is an apostle of the Lord ( Acts of the Apostles 9 ). The book of Acts is written by St. Luke of which his Gospel is Biblical. He was a companion to Paul who was directly called by the Lord to preach to the Gentiles.

The Gospel does not teach slaughtering innocent civilians or plundering livestock ( Luke 9:51-56 ). The Old Testament is often hard to understand but the Lord affirms it ( Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:36-40, Luke 24:44-49 ) we put our faith in Him and His commandments say to love God & neighbor.

The Lord also says not to put on a prideful pretense of prayer outside of worship in His house ( Matthew 6:5-15 ) like this:
muslims praying in public - Google Search

The Lord also says we should fast in humility ( Matthew 6:16-18 ).

We do not worship the Mother of God, the mother of the Man who God chose to be Himself incarnate in the world ( John 1:1-18 ). We honor Her as the Lord told us to ( John 19:25-27 ).

I don't know if the comment is directed to me but since hadith is mentioned I would like to say that hadith are not inspired. Only Quran is in its entirely inspired by God. For hadith we have to research its authenticity. So there are sahih(authentic), daif(weak) or maudu(fabricared) hadiths

 

[Lukaris]

I don't know if the comment is directed to me but since hadith is mentioned I would like to say that hadith are not inspired. Only Quran is in its entirely inspired by God. For hadith we have to research its authenticity. So there are sahih(authentic), daif(weak) or maudu(fabricared) hadiths

It was a reply in general to the hadith tradition you mentioned, yes. I usually try to reply to the concept in general not to the individual stating it to avoid any misunderstanding of personal contention.

 

[Godistruth1]

It was a reply in general to the hadith tradition you mentioned, yes. I usually try to reply to the concept in general not to the individual stating it to avoid any misunderstanding of personal contention.

That's why there is 'sahih' mentioned after every hadith I quoted. I don't quote daif or maudu hadith

 

[ArmyMatt]

The evidence we would say and I say again is contradictions. Since bible is the word of God it can't have contradictions. Also bible at many places records Jesus saying he can't do anything on his own, that miracles he does is God doing it through him, that he did not know everything which are opposite of what God can do!
Mistranslation will have different words not having the whole verse/books removed!

again, you have to show they are contradictions from the understanding prior to Mohammed. what you are doing is akin to 50 years from now, having many translations of the Quran as disproving Islam. it's a foolish apology against Christianity.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You have not taken a look at the contradictions I suppose. Bible can't attribute different father's to one person or different figures for same event etc

sure it can. folks have done this all the time depending on context. a biological father is different from the stepfather who raised someone, and yet both men could rightfully be called father depending on the context.

you are ignoring or are ignorant of Luke's context as different from Matthew's.

 

[Godistruth1]

again, you have to show they are contradictions from the understanding prior to Mohammed. what you are doing is akin to 50 years from now, having many translations of the Quran as disproving Islam. it's a foolish apology against Christianity.

I you could bring Bible that was written/translated to English prior to time of Muhammad, I'd discuss that with you. Since you have the Bible now, I have to discuss that or if you believe they are not reliable then it just proves my point

 

[ArmyMatt]

I you could bring Bible that was written/translated to English prior to time of Muhammad, I'd discuss that with you. Since you have the Bible now, I have to discuss that or if you believe they are not reliable then it just proves my point

I can't because it didn't exist. you would have to take the Greek text with the Greek understanding to show any contradictions. you would also have to take into account how the Christians read it, and stop reading it like a Muslim reads the Quran. your arguments are weak because you are neglecting every context of the Scriptures.

 

[Godistruth1]

I can't because it didn't exist. you would have to take the Greek text with the Greek understanding to show any contradictions. you would also have to take into account how the Christians read it, and stop reading it like a Muslim reads the Quran. your arguments are weak because you are neglecting every context of the Scriptures.

Are you saying there was no bible before Muhammad? Bible we mean all scriptures/books of bible collectively. The Greek texts was the Bible. And its not Muhammad claiming the its God saying that and Quran does not specifically mention bible but says they changed their scriptures or made their own and said this is from God:

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79)

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Quran 3:78)

And remember Allah took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made! (Quran 3:187)

But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. (Quran 5:13-14)

No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (Quran 6:91)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Are you saying there was no bible before Muhammad? The Greek text was the Bible. And its not Muhammad claiming the its God saying that and Quran does not specifically mention bible but says they changed their scriptures or made their own and said this is from God:

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79)

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Quran 3:78)

And remember Allah took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made! (Quran 3:187)

But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. (Quran 5:13-14)

No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (Quran 6:91)

no, I said there was no English Bible before then. and you are using circular reasoning. you have to show Christian understanding changed from that time. I get that the Quran claims the message was changed, but where is the evidence from history that it was changed?

 

[Chesterton]

nm

 

[Godistruth1]

no, I said there was no English Bible before then. and you are using circular reasoning. you have to show Christian understanding changed from that time. I get that the Quran claims the message was changed, but where is the evidence from history that it was changed?

I think I will go one by one with the questions so we can start from somewhere!
Do you believe bible you have now is word of God?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think I will go one by one with the questions so we can start from somewhere!
Do you believe bible you have now is word of God?

fair enough.

no, the Word of God is His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. the Bible never calls itself the Word of God and only calls Christ the Word.

 

[Light of the East]

The evidence we would say and I say again is contradictions. Since bible is the word of God it can't have contradictions. Also bible at many places records Jesus saying he can't do anything on his own, that miracles he does is God doing it through him, that he did not know everything which are opposite of what God can do!
Mistranslation will have different words not having the whole verse/books removed!

I would say that the problem with this contention is that you believe that the way God transmitted his truth is that every message has to be word for word. Kind of like a secretary taking dictation. That's not how communication from God works.

For instance, when in the list of 101 contradictions in the Bible it gives two different numbers

2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

• Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
• One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

this is a historical report of an event which took place. Do you actually think that God said "Write down the number 800,000?" Not all of the Scriptures are a direct word from God, such as the 10 Commandments. You have to be able to look at the Bible and discern who is speaking, what the nature of the issue is, and whether it is a man simply reporting a fact, such as David's adultery with Bathsheeba, or if God is speaking directly, as in the prophecies of Daniel.

Your response is a rather common tactic among those who wish to discredit the Bible for one reason or another, yet there is no proof that the Biblical message was ever distorted, except that you say it is. That, sir, is not proof. You need to be able to give the original texts, which have long since disappeared, and then show that what is written now is different.

But more than that, to say such a thing infers that the men who died to defend and protect these truths were dishonorable men who did not protect the message that Jesus gave to them. It is a serious slander on their character, as well as the character of the whole Church. You see, it was the leadership of the Christian faith which presented the Gospel to the pagan masses of people. For there to be a change in the very message would mean that there was a collusion across the board with all the Apostles, with St. Paul, and with those who followed them.

Now if St. Paul had deviated from the message that the Apostles had received from Jesus, there would have been no small contention over this. We see that whenever there was a strange teaching that someone tried to introduce, the Church leadership called a council to discuss and either accept or reject what was being taught. If St. Paul was changing the message, then surely there would be a historical record of this argument between he and the Apostles, yet none exists!

Furthermore, men do not die, sometimes in most horrible and gruesome ways, to defend that which they know is a lie, or that which they have colluded to make up.

"What.....why are you heating up that oil in big pot?"

"You are going be boiled alive for preaching that Jesus is God."

"What??? No, no Jesus! I don't know what you are talking about. It was all a big joke. We are just kidding!!! We'll stop. I'll be good, I promise!!"

You have to prove that the Apostles changed the message entrusted to them. You can't. You have to prove that St. Paul - as members of Islam state - changed the message of the Apostles and preached a false Gospel. You can't. And if Paul didn't and was willing to die for that message, then you know tat his disciples learned the same truth for which they were willing to die.

So your objection is an entirely made up objection with no basis.