The Bible Claims...

cvanwey

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Hello all,

The Bible claims the Bible is given from God. How might one assess such a claim as valid or invalid? If all humans are flawed in reason, logic, and in assessing evidence... If all humans are bias in their assessments.... If no universal human standard exists for determining truth.... If all humans have a brain, and use that brain to assess all claimed information, with no other mechanism to determine reality verses fiction...

By what standard is then used to determine the Bible is given from a higher power?

When I read it, many stories, assertions, and claims seem to more fall in line with what mere humans would think and state; especially from the time period written.

By what specialized method was concluded to determine the Bible is given by God, besides the Bible's say-so?

Thank you in advance!
 

cvanwey

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If it is indeed the Word of God, it is self-authenticating. Jeremiah 2.29.

I asked how one might determine the Bible was actually given by God, without appealing to verses from the Bible. I already know the Bible claims the Bible was God inspired, but so does the Qur'an, via verse Surah 4:82.'(Word by Word), Then (do) not they ponder (on) the Quran? And if it had (been) from other than Allah, surely they (would have) found in it much contradiction.'

Reading the Bible, verses which state it's true, because it says so, is no better then reading any other competing text which states it says so.

Thank you though...
 
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Tree of Life

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Hello all,

The Bible claims the Bible is given from God. How might one assess such a claim as valid or invalid? If all humans are flawed in reason, logic, and in assessing evidence... If all humans are bias in their assessments.... If no universal human standard exists for determining truth.... If all humans have a brain, and use that brain to assess all claimed information, with no other mechanism to determine reality verses fiction...

By what standard is then used to determine the Bible is given from a higher power?

When I read it, many stories, assertions, and claims seem to more fall in line with what mere humans would think and state; especially from the time period written.

By what specialized method was concluded to determine the Bible is given by God, besides the Bible's say-so?

Thank you in advance!

The Bible evidences itself to be the Word of God through the testimony of the Holy Spirit working in the elect. If God has chosen you for salvation, then by reading the Bible and hearing it preached, you will become convinced that it is the word of God.
 
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Ken Rank

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Hello all,

The Bible claims the Bible is given from God. How might one assess such a claim as valid or invalid? If all humans are flawed in reason, logic, and in assessing evidence... If all humans are bias in their assessments.... If no universal human standard exists for determining truth.... If all humans have a brain, and use that brain to assess all claimed information, with no other mechanism to determine reality verses fiction...

By what standard is then used to determine the Bible is given from a higher power?

When I read it, many stories, assertions, and claims seem to more fall in line with what mere humans would think and state; especially from the time period written.

By what specialized method was concluded to determine the Bible is given by God, besides the Bible's say-so?

Thank you in advance!
Moses wrote the words of the Lord, and it tells us that Moses wrote all the words of the Lord. When the NT claims the bible was inspired by God, it isn't talking about the NT (which I believe to be inspired as well), rather, it is talking about the Scripture of that day. The NT wasn't even compiled and not all of it even written, when Paul said, "All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God." He was referring to what we call the OT.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Hello all,

The Bible claims the Bible is given from God. How might one assess such a claim as valid or invalid? If all humans are flawed in reason, logic, and in assessing evidence... If all humans are bias in their assessments.... If no universal human standard exists for determining truth.... If all humans have a brain, and use that brain to assess all claimed information, with no other mechanism to determine reality verses fiction...

By what standard is then used to determine the Bible is given from a higher power?

When I read it, many stories, assertions, and claims seem to more fall in line with what mere humans would think and state; especially from the time period written.

By what specialized method was concluded to determine the Bible is given by God, besides the Bible's say-so?

Thank you in advance!
The Bible needs the Church to vouch for it, and the Church does that, preserves it, canonizes it, explains it. The Bible does not stand alone.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Please elaborate, for all of us uncertain individuals.

I can't do common sense for you, so I can't elaborate, which puts us right back to the same square one that telling you it's all a matter of faith would, but at least adds a little something that we know exists and gives us answers even when we can't find them the conventional way.

But evidently what seems sensible to me, doesn't to you. Have you tried comparing the bibles way to the alternative?
 
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Danielwright2311

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Hello all,

The Bible claims the Bible is given from God. How might one assess such a claim as valid or invalid? If all humans are flawed in reason, logic, and in assessing evidence... If all humans are bias in their assessments.... If no universal human standard exists for determining truth.... If all humans have a brain, and use that brain to assess all claimed information, with no other mechanism to determine reality verses fiction...

By what standard is then used to determine the Bible is given from a higher power?

When I read it, many stories, assertions, and claims seem to more fall in line with what mere humans would think and state; especially from the time period written.

By what specialized method was concluded to determine the Bible is given by God, besides the Bible's say-so?

Thank you in advance!

Can I ask you a couple questions?

Not about the bible but the existent of God.
 
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4x4toy

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Hello all,

The Bible claims the Bible is given from God. How might one assess such a claim as valid or invalid? If all humans are flawed in reason, logic, and in assessing evidence... If all humans are bias in their assessments.... If no universal human standard exists for determining truth.... If all humans have a brain, and use that brain to assess all claimed information, with no other mechanism to determine reality verses fiction...

By what standard is then used to determine the Bible is given from a higher power?

When I read it, many stories, assertions, and claims seem to more fall in line with what mere humans would think and state; especially from the time period written.

By what specialized method was concluded to determine the Bible is given by God, besides the Bible's say-so?

Thank you in advance!
Biblical Prophesy fulfilled !!!
 
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Serving Zion

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If all humans are flawed in reason, logic, and in assessing evidence...
Hi there, my first question is to find out why you have made this assumption.

Do you believe it is impossible for a human to be perfect in reason, logic and assessing evidence? If so, could you explain what you think is responsible for that condition?

(also I shouldn't refrain to mention that I am ultimately looking to find out whether you are prepared to consider that the perfect answer rests upon the invalidation of this premise .. but I will wait to gauge your response).

I appreciate your thoughts!
 
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Halbhh

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The Bible needs the Church to vouch for it, and the Church does that, preserves it, canonizes it, explains it. The Bible does not stand alone.
We both believe I expect that these are the real words of Christ in the gospel accounts.

Isn't saying these Words of His need vouching by the church saying Christ's Words need men to agree to or validate them?

I think when you read what He says then you won't think these Words need men to validate them.
 
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chevyontheriver

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We both believe I expect that these are the real words of Christ in the gospel accounts.
Absolutely.
Isn't saying these Words of His need vouching by the church saying Christ's Words need men to agree to or validate them?
Not at all. it is saying that the Church which Jesus founded gives testimony to the Bible. It was at the hands of members of the Church that the New Testament was written, it was at the hands of the Church that the writings were collected, weighed, and approved. Jesus founded a Church, left the Holy Spirit to guide the same Church, and that Church canonized the OT and wrote, collected, and canonized the NT.
I think when you read what He says then you won't think these Words need men to validate them.
Nothing is self-validating. The Bible claiming the Bible is valid is like the Quran claiming the Quran is valid. The Quran, by the way, says exactly that too. Why is the Quran all wet when it self-validates? Because self-validation just doesn't cut it. The Bible needs other validation. And the best validation is from the same community that issued it, the Church, founded by Christ.

The OP recognizes exactly the problem. The Bible needs a proper validation. And the only proper validation it can have is from the community Jesus founded and promised to preserve. And the Church does validate the Bible. That's why I can believe the Bible. That's what Augustine was getting at when he said that he believes the Bible because the Catholic Church said so.

That's not very 'Sola Scriptura', but then Sola Scriptura has a bunch of problems, one of them being the 'table of contents' problem. Not to worry. The Church, the rightful validator of the Bible, has done so.
 
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Halbhh

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Absolutely.

Not at all. it is saying that the Church which Jesus founded gives testimony to the Bible. It was at the hands of members of the Church that the New Testament was written, it was at the hands of the Church that the writings were collected, weighed, and approved. Jesus founded a Church, left the Holy Spirit to guide the same Church, and that Church canonized the OT and wrote, collected, and canonized the NT.

Nothing is self-validating. The Bible claiming the Bible is valid is like the Quran claiming the Quran is valid. The Quran, by the way, says exactly that too. Why is the Quran all wet when it self-validates? Because self-validation just doesn't cut it. The Bible needs other validation. And the best validation is from the same community that issued it, the Church, founded by Christ.

The OP recognizes exactly the problem. The Bible needs a proper validation. And the only proper validation it can have is from the community Jesus founded and promised to preserve. And the Church does validate the Bible. That's why I can believe the Bible. That's what Augustine was getting at when he said that he believes the Bible because the Catholic Church said so.

That's not very 'Sola Scriptura', but then Sola Scriptura has a bunch of problems, one of them being the 'table of contents' problem. Not to worry. The Church, the rightful validator of the Bible, has done so.
Don't you think Paul had it correct though in Romans 10:17? Also, if the spirit is guiding....Then it's not people doing the choosing of the Word. But when we read what Christ said, then we know it's the real Word, by His power, you just know.

(It's not sola scriptura I believe in. That's a mere abstraction. It's the living Word, with God since the beginning.)
 
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Micah888

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The Bible claims the Bible is given from God. How might one assess such a claim as valid or invalid?
By studying the Bible carefully and taking it seriously.

Who other than God Himself would know how this creation came into existence? And Jesus (who is also God) and the apostles upheld that creation account as valid, true, historical, reliable, trustworthy, and perfectly accurate.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Don't you think Paul had it correct though in Romans 10:17? Also, if the spirit is guiding....Then it's not people doing the choosing of the Word.
I guess you think the Holy Spirit can guide you personally to the truth. Great if true, but since all of these people claim the Holy Spirit guides them personally to the truth, why do they disagree with each other?

But when I say the Holy Spirit guides the Church in validating the Bible then you say "Isn't saying these Words of His need vouching by the church saying Christ's Words need men to agree to or validate them?" Do you see the flaw there?

Jesus did not promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against individuals but against the Church. Jesus promised the community of believers that we would not be left orphans, and the Church has not been orphaned. It is that community founded by Christ and guided by the spirit that authored the NT and speaks to it's validity. Not just some guy with a feeling.

You saying you can validate the Bible because of a feeling, and then complaining about the Church validating the Bible is, well, odd. The truth is that the community of believers founded by Jesus is the rightful validator of the Bible. But that is a VERY uncomfortable truth for a Protestant.
But when we read what Christ said, then we know it's the real Word, by His power, you just know.
The Mormons have a phrase for exactly that. They say when they read the Book of Mormon they have a 'burning in the bosom' which tells them it is true. How is theirs false but yours true? Or is yours really a valid way to assess that the Bible is true? I think not. I think it could be wishful thinking. You reading something and having a feeling isn't validation. It's a feeling. A feeling about a valid thing, but the feeling is not what makes it valid.

The OP wants to know why he should trust the Bible. Augustine's answer is still the best. Because the Catholic Church says I can trust the Bible.
 
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Micah888

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The OP wants to know why he should trust the Bible. Augustine's answer is still the best. Because the Catholic Church says I can trust the Bible.
This is certainly adequate for Catholics, but it does not work for the rest of Christianity or non-Catholics. The Bible validates itself.
 
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chevyontheriver

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This is certainly adequate for Catholics, but it does not work for the rest of Christianity or non-Catholics. The Bible validates itself.
Saying so does not make it so. Does the Quran validate itself? It says it does. So why do you not believe that?
 
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