We both agree that our "theories" must conform to the whole of scripture. You mention "besides Judas." Is Judas exempt from consideration as someone who followed and believed in Jesus, yet because of his greed, fell away? Another couple because of that same greed, lied to the Holy Spirit and fell dead on the spot as a warning to the young church in Acts. Do you suppose they were not believers in the church? Or, what about Simon the magician? He believed and was baptized (Acts 8:24) yet was sternly warned to repent lest God not forgive him (v.22).
Actually, I meant someone you know personally. We can debate 'till kingdom come about who in the Bible we think had salvation or not.
Elsewhere we see:
But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some have already turned aside after Satan. If any believing man or woman has widows, let them relieve them, and do not let the church be burdened, that it may relieve those who are really widows. (1 Timothy 5:9-16) These young widows in the church have cast off their first faith and have instead turned aside to follow Satan.
I don't know the particulars of the circumstances here, and I'm not arrogant enough to judge that these women were actually saved and then lost their salvation. What I know is what scripture says about our security, and I believe that, as I outlined previously. So then, it's a legitimate question about this particular verse - did these women actually have saving faith, and believe unto salvation, were born again, were sealed by the Holy Spirit, had eternal life, were promised inheritance in Christ, saved from their sin, etc.? Well, this verse of scripture simply doesn't say so. If you make presumptions about the meaning (in contradiction to clear teaching on the subject), then it's a misunderstanding and misinterpretation of it.
Can "first faith" actually mean that they made promises to be celibate just like nuns today? Can "condemnation" mean that their witness for Christ of having integrity in their vows is denigrated in the eyes of others? Certainly there were heathens who were watching the churches and what they were doing (just as it is today), and it is important for the integrity of our witness of Christ to remain intact, otherwise the world has occasion to accuse us of hypocrisy (which they do constantly). Further, if someone "turns aside after Satan," then does it not prove that they were not saved
from their sins in the first place? Perhaps they are "barely escaping the corruption of the world," but that doesn't mean they have been born again. Since we judge according to appearance, we need to see proof of genuine faith, as James 2 teaches.
Therefore, this proof-text doesn't adequately support your idea that salvation can be lost. You have to assume the idea into the text, and so that action is called "eisegesis," which means "
an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text."
Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:14-19)
Once again, a Christian must be in the faith and in the truth in order to “stray concerning the truth” (2 Timothy 2:18). Not only did Hymenaeus and Philetus stray from the truth, but they also overthrew the faith of others (2 Timothy 2:18). Those other Christians had faith to begin with, but Hymenaeus and Philetus overthrew it. Faith cannot be overthrown if it’s not there to begin with. Notice also that in v.19 it references the "seal." Those believers who are sealed by God must depart from inequity. The seal of the Holy Spirit does not guarantee that a believer cannot choose to engage in willful, habitual sin. Only those who depart from inequity and persevere in faith and obedience remain sealed.
Again here you are assuming the theoretical possibility of losing salvation, since the text doesn't actually say these people were saved. Faith has more than one dimension, as is clearly shown in James chapters 1 and 2. To be "in the faith" means to be adhering in practice to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. But Jesus said "not everyone who calls me 'Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Not everyone "in the faith" has actually received the Holy Spirit and been sealed for redemption.
Further, "overthrow the faith of some" doesn't mean those people permanently departed from the faith. If a person is born again, their faith can be "overthrown" in the sense that tremendous doubts can come in due to powerful persuasions, which hinders their faith and walk with God, but doesn't mean they also depart from the faith permanently.
But the seal of the Holy Spirit does actually mean that believers depart from iniquity. Eph. 1:13-14 says that the Spirit is a
guarantee of our inheritance with the saints. It means
absolute security. The same idea of absolute security is taught in many places, including Heb. 9:14 "
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" If our conscience is cleansed from dead works, then how can we then continue to do dead works? Unless you don't believe that the cleansing of the conscience is a purification from sin? Paul is clear on this subject - Rom. 6:2 "
How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" In the same way John bears witness: 1 Jn. 3:9 "
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot [practice] sin, because he is born of God."
This is why the NT commands us to depart from iniquity, because when we first become Christians, we really don't know if we are among the elect or not - not until our life proves out the genuineness of our faith through trials, afflictions, and tribulations. The way we become
certain of being the elect of God and having eternal security is by our endurance of faith, not by parroting theories (which I suspect you would agree with here, at least to some extent). We are exhorted to endure in faith throughout the whole NT. And those who are born again prove so by obeying the scripture, and those who are not born again prove their disobedience by departing from the faith as soon as trouble comes along, or a false teaching designed to seduce them to the flesh is whispered in their ears.
Again, your argument doesn't align with clear teaching of scripture on the security of the believer (or insecurity in your case). I suspect it's not your intention, but you are actually pitting scripture against scripture, as if the clear teaching that I point out from scripture is false. What I quoted from scripture and the ideas portrayed in them isn't my personal opinion. I didn't write those things. I didn't invent those ideas. I'm getting them from the verses I quote. But because you disagree, you try to quote other scriptures to support your theory that salvation can be lost. I say if you wish (or need) to live in such fear, be my guest. I prefer to listen to what the NT teaches and have enduring peace.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (1 Timothy 4:1-5)
Once more, a Christian cannot depart from the faith if they were not in the faith to begin with. Those in the world cannot depart from the faith because they were never in the faith at all. Likewise, a false convert cannot depart from the faith because they were never truly in the faith. Only a “once saved” Christian can depart from the faith.
Again, "in the faith" doesn't automatically mean that they are sons of God. Just because someone claims to believe? Just because someone knows Christian jargon? "
The faith" is the set of doctrines and practices taught by the apostles that we are required to adhere to. Being
in the faith offers us the
opportunity to be born of God, but does not
guarantee it, nor does it
prove that we were. The only thing that guarantees salvation is receiving the Spirit, and the only thing that proves genuine personal faith is a lifestyle obedient to Christ. We need both of these to be certain that we are saved. This passage of scripture doesn't address that, so it doesn't prove your theory, and the same with all the verses you quote here.
TD