Those who fall away are still saved?

[justbyfaith]

I know no more than is written.

The Luke 8 passage does not address the things you are wrestling with.

I suggest you find other passages to explain your belief in loss of salvation - which, it seems to me, is the doctrinal agenda you are trying to foster here in a round about way.

I.e. - you have no question. You just want to push your held belief.

Read the passage where it says certain people received the word with joy. I didn't write it.

You are the one adding to what it says in saying that it is "not a saving faith".

The passage simply does not address loss of salvation. Find other passages to support your agenda.

I have no idea what you mean by "tasting" the words fall away.

I don't care what kind of picture you have in your mind. I only know what the passage says and what it does not say.

It does not address the eternal security of believers or the supposed possibility that they may come again into condemnation after believing and passing from death to life.

Other passages do that quite clearly.

I simply won't try to defend my belief that I was chosen by God before the foundation of the world, drawn by the Father in time, came to the Son when drawn who will lose none of whom the Father has given Him, was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, was raised with Christ and am even now seated with Him in glory and ruling in the Kingdom of God through Him by faith, have eternal life, have an advocate before God, have the Holy Spirit praying for me, have ministering angel all around me, and have a new home being prepared for me when the Lord comes for me in glory ----- by arguing from a passage which does not address those promises or God's supposed willingness to break them in the first place.

Suddenly everyone is attacking me. No, I did not come here with a hidden agenda, my question is sincere and genuine. Over 156 pages of going back and forth changed my view from eternal security for genuine bona fide believers, who by definition will persevere in their faith and who will walk in general holiness from the time of conversion to the view that someone can believe (i.e. have mental assent to the tenets and doctrines of the gospel) and later fall away. Scriptures that came up were Luke 8:13 (a valid scripture that does indeed speak of believers FALLING AWAY), James 5:9 (kjv) and James 5:12 (kjv) (scriptures addressed to BRETHREN that also speak of possible CONDEMNATION), and Hebrews 10:39 (a scripture which speaks of the believer drawing back UNTO PERDITION). There were more scriptures involved in the discussion; but these were the primary ones speaking of the fact that a believer can lose salvation.

 

[fhansen]

Suddenly everyone is attacking me. No, I did not come here with a hidden agenda, my question is sincere and genuine. Over 156 pages of going back and forth changed my view from eternal security for all believers to eternal security for genuine bona fide believers, who by definition will persevere in their faith and who will walk in general holiness from the time of conversion. And the view that someone can believe (i.e. have mental assent to the tenets and doctrines of the gospel) and later fall away. Scriptures that came up were Luke 8:13 (a valid scripture that does indeed speak of believers FALLING AWAY), James 5:9 and James 5:12 (scriptures addressed to BRETHREN that also speak of possible CONDEMNATION), and Hebrews 10:39 (a scripture which speaks of the believer drawing back UNTO PERDITION). There were more scriptures involved in the discussion; but these were the primary ones speaking of the fact that a believer can lose salvation.

Sure, but in all honesty the elect DO NOT know with 100% certainty that they are numbered among the elect. They can think they aren't when they are, like the sheep in Matt 25:31-46, or they can think they are when they're not, like the goats.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sure but in all honesty the elect DO NOT know with 100% certainty that they are numbered among the elect.

Okay...but what about Romans 8:16 and 1 John 5:13? Do not these scriptures state that we CAN know that we are children of God and therefore have eternal life?

 

[justbyfaith]

Someone who falls away is still saved? What did they fall away from? Is it not God, and faith, and salvation?

 

[tdidymas]

Suddenly everyone is attacking me. No, I did not come here with a hidden agenda, my question is sincere and genuine. Over 156 pages of going back and forth changed my view from eternal security for all believers to eternal security for genuine bona fide believers, who by definition will persevere in their faith and who will walk in general holiness from the time of conversion. And the view that someone can believe (i.e. have mental assent to the tenets and doctrines of the gospel) and later fall away. Scriptures that came up were Luke 8:13 (a valid scripture that does indeed speak of believers FALLING AWAY), James 5:9 and James 5:12 (scriptures addressed to BRETHREN that also speak of possible CONDEMNATION), and Hebrews 10:39 (a scripture which speaks of the believer drawing back UNTO PERDITION). There were more scriptures involved in the discussion; but these were the primary ones speaking of the fact that a believer can lose salvation.

a believer can lose salvation

The way I read the NT, esp. James 2 and other places, the "believer" who only has a claim or theory and not saving faith ("bona fide believers") don't have a salvation they can lose.

The nature of the epistles and certain passages of the gospels, the way they are written, assumes that some people in the churches claim to believe but are not true believers. These kinds of people are discussed in places like some of the parables, Romans, Galatians, James, 1 John, and other various places.

Jesus said "not everyone who calls me 'Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven."
1. He is talking about people who call Jesus 'Lord,' therefore they are claiming to be believers.
2. "Shall not enter" means that they have not been born again, even though they claim to believe. They have not entered at all, so they have not experienced rebirth, therefore have no salvation to lose.
3. He later calls them "workers of iniquity," which means they never believed for deliverance from their sins. They may have shown an appearance of repentance (like the Pharisees), but have not repented in spirit to surrender to God's call by trusting in Christ fully.

James 2 is a passage that makes a distinction between claiming to believe and actually believing. We shouldn't get those two confused, as many in the churches have done for 2k years.
TD

 

[fhansen]

Okay...but what about Romans 8:16 and 1 John 5:13? Do not these scriptures state that we CAN know that we are children of God and therefore have eternal life?

They don't mean that everyone who read or heard them had/has eternal life. We can nonetheless have a high level of assurance, based on God's trustworthiness and our obedience/fruits, while still gaurded in humility knowing our weaknesses and limitations. Turning away from Him and towards sin does not qualify as obedience/fruits, and should certainly give a person pause in thinking they're living according to His will for them, that they're saved at that point IOW.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

All of the verses you cited in John's epistle contain the pisteuōn which is a present tense participle. Therefore one must go on "believing" in order to have eternal life. If a Christian no longer believes then he/she is no longer saved.

A truly born-again believer will indeed keep on believing, because they have been regenerated by God the Holy Spirit. They might not keep on living the life of a believer, in that there could be sin that can cause the person to wander from their faith. However, this does not mean that they cease to believe in the Lord and the Holy Bible, even during their time of back-sliding. The Bible says that all those who have been truly born again, are "kept by the power of God through faith" (1 Peter 1:5). In the previous verses Peter says of the believers eternal life in the Lord, "and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you".

 

[justbyfaith]

In Luke 8:13, they BELIEVE, if only for a while, and later fall away.

So the question is, did their believing produce within them salvation?

If you take John 5:24 and John 6:47 at face value, the believing in Luke 8:13 did indeed produce salvation, but for time only not for eternity. I.e. for all practical purposes they were saved by grace through faith; they had access by faith into grace wherein they stood.

I think I agree with you that those who have genuine faith will not fall away later. However, the letter of the word seems to dictate that in believing they were saved but they later fell away and were therefore no longer saved.

So I again revert to the whole idea of mental assent vs. a heart faith that changes the life. The believing that saves the person who later falls away can only be mental assent to the tenets of the gospel, and may include an outward change in behaviour; but inward righteousness greater than that of the scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 5:20, Galatians 2:21, Philippians 3:9) is never produced. And also, the tenacity of a genuine faith doesn't abide in the person who only has a mental assent to doctrine.

The believing that produces everlasting life can only be a heart faith that produces real righteousness (Romans 10:10) and will also persevere to the end (Hebrews 3:14).

And it is also possible that the believing in Luke 8:13 is not a saving faith; and that John 5:24 and John 6:47 are speaking only of saving faith. I am getting tired tonight so I may not be saying things as clearly as I should.

 

[tdidymas]

Sure but in all honesty the elect DO NOT know with 100% certainty that they are numbered among the elect.

Who says?

I believe the Bible:
1 Jn. 5:13 "...that you may know (with absolute certainty) that you have eternal life"
1 Pet. 1:5 "...kept by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time"
Eph 1:13-14 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge (guarantee) of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Rom 8:16 "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God."
TD

 

[justbyfaith]

A truly born-again believer will indeed keep on believing, because they have been regenerated by God the Holy Spirit. They might not keep on living the life of a believer, in that there could be sin that can cause the person to wander from their faith. However, this does not mean that they cease to believe in the Lord and the Holy Bible, even during their time of back-sliding. The Bible says that all those who have been truly born again, are "kept by the power of God through faith" (1 Peter 1:5). In the previous verses Peter says of the believers eternal life in the Lord, "and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you".

At the very end of James' epistle, James writes,

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death (spiritual and possible eternal separation from God), and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

At the very end of James' epistle, James writes,

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death (spiritual and possible eternal separation from God), and shall hide a multitude of sins.

do you believe that a person who is truly born-again can lose their salvation? I note that your own text shows only a "possibility", as you say?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I think I agree with you that those who have genuine faith will not fall away later.

Exactly so.

So I again revert to the whole idea of mental assent vs. a heart faith that changes the life.

The way I read the NT, esp. James 2 and other places, the "believer" who only has a claim or theory and not saving faith ("bona fide believers") don't have a salvation they can lose.

You have answered your own “question”.

The nature of the epistles and certain passages of the gospels, the way they are written, assumes that some people in the churches claim to believe but are not true believers. These kinds of people are discussed in places like some of the parables, Romans, Galatians, James, 1 John, and other various places.

Jesus said "not everyone who calls me 'Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven."

1. He is talking about people who call Jesus 'Lord,' therefore they are claiming to be believers.

2. "Shall not enter" means that they have not been born again, even though they claim to believe. They have not entered at all, so they have not experienced rebirth, therefore have no salvation to lose.

3. He later calls them "workers of iniquity," which means they never believed for deliverance from their sins. They may have shown an appearance of repentance (like the Pharisees), but have not repented in spirit to surrender to God's call by trusting in Christ fully.

James 2 is a passage that makes a distinction between claiming to believe and actually believing. We shouldn't get those two confused, as many in the churches have done for 2k years.

Everyone agrees about these things.

But you have been fostering here the idea that one who has been truly saved and born again can lose their salvation - which of course is not true.

Suddenly everyone is attacking me.

My bold statement above is why.

The believing that saves the person who later falls away can only be mental assent to the tenets of the gospel, and may include an outward change in behaviour; but inward righteousness greater than that of the scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 5:20, Galatians 2:21, Philippians 3:9) is never produced. And also, the tenacity of a genuine faith doesn't abide in the person who only has a mental assent to doctrine.

The believing that produces everlasting life can only be a heart faith that produces real righteousness (Romans 10:10) and will also persevere to the end (Hebrews 3:14).

And it is also possible that the believing in Luke 8:13 is not a saving faith; and that John 5:24 and John 6:47 are speaking only of saving faith.

No problem from me.

Luke 8, ideally with support from other passages, may indeed be used to show that some do not believe at all and that some do not have true faith which took root.

You are now differentiating between mere human reasoned assent and being drawn by the Father to the Son for true salvation.

Again – you have answered your own question as it were.

A true “believer” is eternally secure and a “non true” believer never had any salvation to be secured by God’s faithfulness to never leave or forsake him, or the intercession and the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Blade]

Well this is silly. Well to talk about someone falling away.. knowing you cant read the heart knowing God Does not look at read the flesh like we are doing. So just what are you basing your "falling away" on? Its one thine for the 12 to talk about this. They LIVED what they believed day in day out 24/7. They KNEW HIM we do not. So much of what is asked is based on feelings. Before the NT how did they get saved? All they had what John 3:16-17. Some just had ONLY what some person remember Christ said.

The 12.. they prayed 24/7 in and about all things. Do we? They loved 1st. They looked at the good in people not the sin. When they did see the sin.. they loved that person.. bend down.. became all things to help that person. When they spoke in righteous anger it was not them but the Holy Spirit In which they had a RIGHT since they were apostles. No one here is. We don't get to play with this. You take it to the Father knowing only HE sees the heart. Then those they knew would not change.. they turned them over to Satan to save the soul. They loved them.

I am 57 and I and no one I know has ever heard the Father ..not once talk about how if you fall away our lost forever not once saved always saved nor if you sin or fall away your lost. He NEVER EVER EVER EVER talks about this. He ALWAYS comes back with the positive.. as in John 3:16.. or thats why I died..or the CROSS..or how deep wide the grace of the Father is...or how the Father will remember there sins nor more. So.. how can we talk about something when the Father is not even talking about it? What are the fruits of the spirit? What does 1st Cor 13 say? How are we to THINK? What did Phil say about this?

Christ NEVER lost..ever. Everything He starts He finishes and it ALWAYS grows. MAN just sees FLESH and then we judge based on ONLY what we see hear and feel. None of which is faith. And He knows in this world were we are born in to sin.. and never see Him feel Him hear Him touch Him and knowing how great the lies of our enemy is...He knows. One would have to have KNOW HIM.. in His power and the powers to come...and taste of SO MUCH of Him. Then to walk away...they KNOW HIM..they KNOW what they are walking away from. To bring that person back is almost impossible. There are NOT many like this.

Praise GOD we get no say in this.. AMEN. Say what we want believe what we want about this..but BE CARFUL! To hurt to confuse to cause one to stumple and fall to have fear of which is NOT of the Father...you dont answer to me. There is no time in heaven. So to face Him about this or the like.. it wont be hours days weeks years.. there is no time. These are HIS creation..HIS kids... so take them bring them before Him... since we get no say on just WHO IS or WHO IS not falling away. Man work out your own salvation. Tell people the good news. If someone falls HELP THEM! Pick them up.. become all things to help them. Pray not just 1 min but how ever long it takes as if it was your own child

 

[Discreetuser01]

The reasoning that has developed in the thread Salvation is COMPLETE and IRREVOCABLE, or something like that, in the Soteriology section of these boards, primarily argued by @FreeGrace2, is along the following lines:

In the parable of the sower, there are those who BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and then fall away. Luke 8:13.

But in John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:28 it is given that those who believe POSSESS everlasting life, and shall NEVER PERISH.

So then, if I believe for a while and then fall away, did I possess everlasting life while I believed?

And if, when I fell away, I died spiritually, was it NOT everlasting life in the first place?

Because it seems to me that if life is everlasting, it will never end.

So the argument is, that if I believe for a while I have everlasting life; therefore if I fall away I continue to have everlasting life.

I call it "believe-for-a-moment" theology, and I consider it to be false doctrine, a doctrine of devils, in fact (see 1 Timothy 4:1).

But I don't have an answer.

Maybe we can put our noggins together and figure out an answer for this dilemna in the scripture.

Common sense would tell you that if you fall away from the faith, you no longer have salvation. Since faith is the catalyst for salvation, i.e. we are saved by grace through faith, therefore without faith I am not a recipient of grace and am not saved. So if someone falls away from having faith in Jesus Christ, they wouldn't be saved anymore.

And yet the nature of the life given to those who believe is that it is everlasting; it can never have an end.

And that it is possible that someone can have faith for a season is evident in Luke 8:13.

So if they fall away do they continue to have everlasting life? Or does the fact that they no longer have faith mean that they are departed from Jesus Christ and have salvation no more?

Because also, we cannot have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

If we can have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ, why come to Jesus in the first place?
.
.
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A part of my answer is that when faith is mentioned in the Bible, it can mean different things regardless of the fact that it is the same Greek word. There may be a nominal faith vs. a radical faith, and/or a mental assent vs. a heart faith, the latter of which produces righteousness (Romans 10:10).

So is the "faith for a moment" wherein the person believes for a while and then falls away, is it talking about a mental assent only that does not produce real righteousness, or is it a heart faith that produces righteousness? Are there those whose hearts are changed by Jesus Christ who can fall away later? Or are the ones who can fall away only those who have mental assent to the doctrines of the faith, and who believe in this sense, but whose faith does not produce a change in the heart/life/behaviour?

If someone whose life is changed by faith in Jesus can fall away, was their life everlasting if they do? Because those who believe have everlasting life. John 6:47.

I believe in once saved, always saved. Jesus said no one can pluck them from his hand. My thinking is if you drift away, maybe you weren't truly saved to bring with. You need to pray about that. Salvation is a life long endeavor. When you bring Jesus Christ into you life, the cleanup begins. Just don't give up on God.

 

[Phil 1:21]

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1 John 2:19

 

[lamb7]

Sure, but in all honesty the elect DO NOT know with 100% certainty that they are numbered among the elect. They can think they aren't when they are, like the sheep in Matt 25:31-46, or they can think they are when they're not, like the goats.

How can we have joy or peace in this life if we don't know we are elect?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="justbyfaith, post: 72690390, member: 398457"]Suddenly everyone is attacking me. No, I did not come here with a hidden agenda, my question is sincere and genuine. Over 156 pages of going back and forth changed my view from eternal security for genuine bona fide believers, who by definition will persevere in their faith and who will walk in general holiness from the time of conversion to the view that someone can believe (i.e. have mental assent to the tenets and doctrines of the gospel) and later fall away. Scriptures that came up were Luke 8:13 (a valid scripture that does indeed speak of believers FALLING AWAY), James 5:9 (kjv) and James 5:12 (kjv) (scriptures addressed to BRETHREN that also speak of possible CONDEMNATION), and Hebrews 10:39 (a scripture which speaks of the believer drawing back UNTO PERDITION). There were more scriptures involved in the discussion; but these were the primary ones speaking of the fact that a believer can lose salvation.[/QUOTE
Good Testimony .

I believe in once saved, always saved. Jesus said no one can pluck them from his hand. My thinking is if you drift away, maybe you weren't truly saved to bring with. You need to pray about that. Salvation is a life long endeavor. When you bring Jesus Christ into you life, the cleanup begins. Just don't give up on God.

If you drift away, or fall away, and are lost, then it won't make any difference, on Judgment Day, to cry "but I believed in osas!" ....

How can we have joy or peace in this life if we don't know we are elect?

A lot of people, multitudes, think they are saved, and go to church every week, and do all the things religious people do, and think or claim at least that they are HAPPY ! / joyful and (some) that they have 'peace' .... and surround themselves with others likeminded, enough anyway to support one another in the total deception....
until...
the end.

Then they find out. No joy. No peace. Only turmoil , torture, and pain and suffering.

 

[lamb7]

QUOTE="justbyfaith, post: 72690390, member: 398457"]Suddenly everyone is attacking me. No, I did not come here with a hidden agenda, my question is sincere and genuine. Over 156 pages of going back and forth changed my view from eternal security for genuine bona fide believers, who by definition will persevere in their faith and who will walk in general holiness from the time of conversion to the view that someone can believe (i.e. have mental assent to the tenets and doctrines of the gospel) and later fall away. Scriptures that came up were Luke 8:13 (a valid scripture that does indeed speak of believers FALLING AWAY), James 5:9 (kjv) and James 5:12 (kjv) (scriptures addressed to BRETHREN that also speak of possible CONDEMNATION), and Hebrews 10:39 (a scripture which speaks of the believer drawing back UNTO PERDITION). There were more scriptures involved in the discussion; but these were the primary ones speaking of the fact that a believer can lose salvation.[/QUOTE
Good Testimony .


If you drift away, or fall away, and are lost, then it won't make any difference, on Judgment Day, to cry "but I believed in osas!" ....



A lot of people, multitudes, think they are saved, and go to church every week, and do all the things religious people do, and think or claim at least that they are HAPPY ! / joyful and (some) that they have 'peace' .... and surround themselves with others likeminded, enough anyway to support one another in the total deception....
until...
the end.

Then they find out. No joy. No peace. Only turmoil , torture, and pain and suffering.

I know what you mean, the modern emergent church etc etc I agree with youb, ut what about the true believers they get no assurance? God is not the authoring confusion so to live a life confused if one is saved seems odd.

 

[fhansen]

How can we have joy or peace in this life if we don't know we are elect?

It's not about complete uncertainty-of being left in the dark. It's just that God also wants us to strive, to know our place, to participate to the extent we're able in this great work of His. Our own justice increases to the extent that we do. Otherwise the gospel is gutted of its meaning. God may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect, and threw the rest in hell from the beginning, never giving the latter group any reason at all for "joy or peace". But if we have some uncertainty, based on humility, if we don't see ourselves so neatly and totally separated from the sinners or the reprobate out there, then we respect God all the more while still knowing He'll do the right and best thing in any case.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I know what you mean, the modern emergent church etc etc I agree with youb, ut what about the true believers they get no assurance? God is not the authoring confusion so to live a life confused if one is saved seems odd.

True believers suffer a lot, not just persecution, but deception and troubles on every side, like the Apostles faced as written in Scripture, even friends and family and religious 'enemies' pulling them this way and that way trying to get them over to 'their' side of things in error....
The "assurance" you probably already know, is found only in Scripture, unchanging Scripture, and the peace that God gives freely as we trust Him instead of men.

The confusion is not from God, but, as always, from men and from the devil.