Salvation of jews

[EmSw]

If you mean 'going to heaven after you die' you will not find this idea in the OT, so the question 'were Gentiles saved in the OT' seems like a non-starter.

Really? So there were no Gentiles in heaven before Jesus walked this earth?

 

[bcbsr]

Were Gentiles saved in the OT? If so, how?

Abraham was saved as a Gentile. And that by faith apart from works (Rom 4:1,2)

 

[Steve Petersen]

Really? So there were no Gentiles in heaven before Jesus walked this earth?

A better question is 'Was ANYBODY in heaven before Jesus died?' A couple of the OT prophets got a glimpse of heaven and God's thrones. They saw angels and 'the son of man', but no mention of anyone who had died already.

 

[bcbsr]

This is in regard to salvation and standing before God, but Paul goes on to say that Israel's gifts and calling are irrevocable and that to THEM were given the oracles of God.

The gift was not salvation. It was access to the scriptures. "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God." Rom 3:1,2

Same for those born in Christian households. Not automatically saved, but rather having access to the Bible.

 

[EmSw]

Abraham was saved as a Gentile. And that by faith apart from works (Rom 4:1,2)

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 

[Radagast]

What do you guys think about it? It's kind of obvious that they have a special role in God's plan, but are jews always saved the same way then gentiles? If not, how is their path to salvation different?

What makes you think that they, as a group, will be saved at all?

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23)

 

[Steve Petersen]

What makes you think that they, as a group, will be saved at all?

No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23)

Romans 11:26

 

[Steve Petersen]

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Faith can also be translated 'faithfulness.'

 

[bcbsr]

This is in regard to salvation and standing before God, but Paul goes on to say that Israel's gifts and calling are irrevocable and that to THEM were given the oracles of God.

Paul said to Peter (both being Jewish) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

Same for Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Paul said to Peter (both being Jewish) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

Same for Jew and Gentile alike.

In context, I think that Peter and Paul were saying that conversion to Judaism does not justify anyone (works of law would be the requirements of second temple Judaism to convert from paganism: circumcision, immersion, sacrifice.)

 

[EmSw]

A better question is 'Was ANYBODY in heaven before Jesus died?' A couple of the OT prophets got a glimpse of heaven and God's thrones. They saw angels and 'the son of man', but no mention of anyone who had died already.

Where did the 'dead' go?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Where did the 'dead' go?

Into the ground seems to be the OT answer to that question.

 

[bcbsr]

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

James was wrong. He was in opposition to Paul who said, "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Rom 4:1-3

Paul used Gen 15:5,6 to prove that justification is by faith apart from works by showing that Abraham believed the promise and then there was no intervening work between his belief and his justification in Gen 15:6.

James on the other hand viewed the promise of Gen 15:6 as only a prophecy not fulfilled until over a decade later when Abraham did a work of faith.

And since they're both referencing Gen 15:6 they're both speaking of the same "justification". These are logically incompatible statements. Paul is right, James is wrong.

 

[EmSw]

Faith can also be translated 'faithfulness.'

Can a man be 'faithful' without doing anything?

 

[EmSw]

James was wrong. He was in opposition to Paul who said, "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Rom 4:1-3

Paul used Gen 15:5,6 to prove that justification is by faith apart from works by showing that Abraham believed the promise and then there was no intervening work between his belief and his justification in Gen 15:6.

James on the other hand viewed the promise of Gen 15:6 as only a prophecy not fulfilled until over a decade later when Abraham did a work of faith.

And since they're both referencing Gen 15:6 they're both speaking of the same "justification". These are logically incompatible statements. Paul is right, James is wrong.

Really? Who chooses which one is right and which one is wrong?

 

[EmSw]

Into the ground seems to be the OT answer to that question.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but do you mean all the OT saints are in the ground until today?

 

[bcbsr]

In context, I think that Peter and Paul were saying that conversion to Judaism does not justify anyone (works of law would be the requirements of second temple Judaism to convert from paganism: circumcision, immersion, sacrifice.)

Nope. He says "We".
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even WE have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

He's not saying, "those people who are converts to Judaism"

 

[Steve Petersen]

Nope. He says "We".
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even WE have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

He's not saying, "those people who are converts to Judaism"

So what were those 'works of Law then?' Curiously, one of the Dead Sea Scrolls (4QMMT) is titled 'Misqat Ma'asseh ha Torah,' literally 'Some Works of the Law.'

 

[bcbsr]

Really? Who chooses which one is right and which one is wrong?

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Acts 17:11

James was not an apostle. Paul was God's chosen apostle to Jews and Gentiles. Since they contradict each other, one is wrong. Which one?

 

[Steve Petersen]

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Acts 17:11

James was not an apostle. Paul was God's chosen apostle to Jews and Gentiles. Since they contradict each other, one is wrong. Which one?

James was the head of the Jerusalem Council and Jesus' brother. Both Peter and Paul obeyed him. That is a pretty strong endorsement.