The Rapture

[seventysevens]

That's not what Jesus says. Jesus says that an entire church which had found false apostles and apparently told them so to their faces, an entire church which hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans which Jesus also literally hates, that they were in danger of having the candlestick removed because they had lost their first love. Having your candlestick removed means made into a synagogue of satan. The first love, IMHO, is giving up your life for your brother... i.e., putting his needs always and forever, before your own. The church with a wonderful aroma, and the church of brotherly love are the only two that make it... and they are clearly all about love.
The antichrists don't say that God doesn't exist, and they are definitely apostate. They say that God didn't really actually come in flesh that could sin. THE apostacy is exactly that. The fact that Jesus came in flesh that was able to sin is something most people don't think about. But of what use would an unable-to-sin example be? We are able to overcome, just as Jesus overcame. Otherwise the first few chapters of Revelation have no meaning. And if all we have to do is believe that Jesus will/has saved us from the consequences of our sins, and then turn away, forgetting the face in the mirror [as James says] we are something worse than lost. Resist unto death, resist to the point of sweating blood... this is what we are called to do.

You wanna provide scripture to prove what you say - seems you misinterpret scripture often as I see in this thread

 

[jgr]

The fulfilment of those Old Testament prophecies show those who follow the Law of Moses that Jesus is the Messiah, and that His crucifixion completed the sacrificial portion of the Law... and also that resurrection of the body is real... and the advent of the Holy Spirit as old to us by John 20:22... and the commission restated by Matthew 28:20... and then the Revelation given to John... and even now, this is still just a sample of what Jesus came to do, as told to us in His own words, and faithfully repeated by those who walked with Him.

Yes, and much more...the whole OT is about Him.

Daniel 9:24 is a great OT one-verse summary.

 

[gomerian]

You wanna provide scripture to prove what you say - seems you misinterpret scripture often as I see in this thread

And you want to provide scripture to prove what you call misinterpretations, right? Saying it doesn't make it so.

 

[seventysevens]

Personally, I don't see where repentance, after the wrath begins, is supposed to be happening.
.

People who have accepted Jesus then become apostate , don't receive Jesus again
Many people who have not heard the gospel will repent, as the events will unfold before every person has heard the gospel which it is still preached during the first half of the 7 year , as Jesus says IF they will repent he will forgive - the last half of the 7 people are not repenting

 

[seventysevens]

And you want to provide scripture to prove what you call misinterpretations, right? Saying it doesn't make it so.

I was asking you if you will provide the scripture that supports what you say
IS THERE ANY ?

 

[seventysevens]

That's not what Jesus says. Jesus says that an entire church which had found false apostles and apparently told them so to their faces, an entire church which hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans which Jesus also literally hates, that they were in danger of having the candlestick removed because they had lost their first love. Having your candlestick removed means made into a synagogue of satan. The first love, IMHO, is giving up your life for your brother... i.e., putting his needs always and forever, before your own. The church with a wonderful aroma, and the church of brotherly love are the only two that make it... and they are clearly all about love.

The antichrists don't say that God doesn't exist, and they are definitely apostate. They say that God didn't really actually come in flesh that could sin. THE apostacy is exactly that. The fact that Jesus came in flesh that was able to sin is something most people don't think about. But of what use would an unable-to-sin example be? We are able to overcome, just as Jesus overcame. Otherwise the first few chapters of Revelation have no meaning. And if all we have to do is believe that Jesus will/has saved us from the consequences of our sins, and then turn away, forgetting the face in the mirror [as James says] we are something worse than lost. Resist unto death, resist to the point of sweating blood... this is what we are called to do.

Where is the scripture that says what you claim it does ?

 

[David Kent]

You are aware that Judah has yet to believe, aren't you? Nobody gets the Commandments of God written on their heart unless and until they believe and follow.

You seem to have missed the fact that the early church at Pentecost was Jewish. Christians came into the church, so the church is part o Israel.

 

[David Kent]

I was asking you if you will provide the scripture that supports what you say
IS THERE ANY ?

There isn't usually.

 

[David Kent]

And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschtoloy?

From the bible.

 

[David Kent]

enesis 49:10 reveals that one of Judah is keep the royal sceptre all the way to the coming of Shiloh (Jesus), and to Him will the gathering of the people be. That means David's throne is still to exist today, on earth, with one of Judah sitting upon it, and Jesus when He comes will inherit it. David's throne is an earthly throne, always has been, always will be.

And who is sitting on David's throne today? Do you believe, like one church about 30 miles from here, that it is the queen of England?

It is Christ of course. He said his kingdom is not of this world.

Jacob's trouble was the Babylonians.

 

[BABerean2]

I try never to confuse canon with the character of God.
But John doesn't say that Jesus wrote "the whole Bible".
John says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us; that through the Word, all things were made.
For me, that means Jesus is building His church, all by His lonesome, without any help whatsoever.
What it doesn't mean is that 'Gone with the Wind', being a 'thing', came from the pen of God.

IMHO, the letter to the Hebrews trivializes the life and works of Jesus by making the Word of God into set of dogmas. In fact, it sounds very much like the leaven of the Pharisees, about which Jesus has warned us all.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


.

 

[Quasar92]

As BAB2 has more than thoroughly described and demonstrated in post #195 and others, there is not a soul on the planet whom God has recognized observing the Mosaic covenant since Calvary, because Christ was its complete fulfillment as of then.

The word "accomplish" or its variants is nowhere in NT Scripture associated with the second advent. Instead, Jesus' declaration in Matthew 5:18 is seen fulfilled at Calvary:

John 19:28
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

All things encompassed the Mosaic covenant, and a whole lot more; in fact, all else (Luke 24:25-45).

You are badly misinformed. Judaism is the tenth largest religion in the world today and still practice the Laws given them by Moses.

The Torah, or Jewish Written Law, consists of the five books of the Hebrew Bible - known more commonly to non-Jews as the "Old Testament" - that were given by G-d to Moses on Mount Sinai and include within them all of the biblical laws of Judaism. The Torah is also known as the Chumash, Pentateuch or Five Books of Moses.

The word "Torah" has multiple meanings including: A scroll made from kosher animal parchment, with the entire text of the Five Books of Moses written on it; the text of the Five Books of Moses, written in any format; and, the term "Torah" can mean the entire corpus of Jewish law. This includes the Written and the Oral Law.

Origin & Preexistence
Jewish tradition holds that "Moses received the Torah from Sinai," yet there is also an ancient tradition that the Torah existed in heaven not only before God revealed it to Moses, but even before the world was created.

In rabbinic literature, it was taught that the Torah was one of the six or seven things created prior to the creation of the world. According to Eliezer ben Yose the Galilean, for 974 generations before the creation of the world the Torah lay in God's bosom and joined the ministering angels in song. Simeon ben Lakish taught that the Torah preceded the world by 2,000 years and was written in black fire upon white fire. Akiva called the Torah "the precious instrument by which the world was created". Rav said that God created the world by looking into the Torah as an architect builds a palace by looking into blueprints. It was also taught that God took council with the Torah before He created the world.

Other Jewish sages, however, disregard the literal belief that the Torah existed before all else. Saadiah Gaon rejected this belief on the grounds that it contradicts the principle of creation ex nihilo. Judah Barzillai of Barcelona raised the problem of place. Where could God have kept a preexistent Torah? While allowing that God could conceivably have provided an ante-mundane place for a corporeal Torah, he preferred the interpretation that the Torah preexisted only as a thought in the divine mind. Similarly, the Ibn Ezra raised the problem of time. He wrote that it is impossible for the Torah to have preceded the world by 2,000 years or even by one moment, since time is an accident of motion, and there was no motion before God created the celestial spheres; rather, he concluded, the teaching about the Torah's preexistence must be a metaphoric riddle.

Judah Halevi attempts to alleviate the argument by explaining that the Torah precedes the world in terms of teleology; God created the world for the purpose of revealing the Torah; therefore, since, as the philosophers say, "the first of thought is the end of the work," the Torah is said to have existed before the world

See the following for the rest of the article:

Source: The Written Law - Torah



Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

From the bible.

Same place the LDS and the JW get their teachings from. Are you a subscriber to their interpretations of it as well?


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

You are badly misinformed. Judaism is the tenth largest religion in the world today and still practice the Laws given them by Moses.

The Torah, or Jewish Written Law, consists of the five books of the Hebrew Bible - known more commonly to non-Jews as the "Old Testament" - that were given by G-d to Moses on Mount Sinai and include within them all of the biblical laws of Judaism. The Torah is also known as the Chumash, Pentateuch or Five Books of Moses.

The word "Torah" has multiple meanings including: A scroll made from kosher animal parchment, with the entire text of the Five Books of Moses written on it; the text of the Five Books of Moses, written in any format; and, the term "Torah" can mean the entire corpus of Jewish law. This includes the Written and the Oral Law.

Origin & Preexistence
Jewish tradition holds that "Moses received the Torah from Sinai," yet there is also an ancient tradition that the Torah existed in heaven not only before God revealed it to Moses, but even before the world was created.

In rabbinic literature, it was taught that the Torah was one of the six or seven things created prior to the creation of the world. According to Eliezer ben Yose the Galilean, for 974 generations before the creation of the world the Torah lay in God's bosom and joined the ministering angels in song. Simeon ben Lakish taught that the Torah preceded the world by 2,000 years and was written in black fire upon white fire. Akiva called the Torah "the precious instrument by which the world was created". Rav said that God created the world by looking into the Torah as an architect builds a palace by looking into blueprints. It was also taught that God took council with the Torah before He created the world.

Other Jewish sages, however, disregard the literal belief that the Torah existed before all else. Saadiah Gaon rejected this belief on the grounds that it contradicts the principle of creation ex nihilo. Judah Barzillai of Barcelona raised the problem of place. Where could God have kept a preexistent Torah? While allowing that God could conceivably have provided an ante-mundane place for a corporeal Torah, he preferred the interpretation that the Torah preexisted only as a thought in the divine mind. Similarly, the Ibn Ezra raised the problem of time. He wrote that it is impossible for the Torah to have preceded the world by 2,000 years or even by one moment, since time is an accident of motion, and there was no motion before God created the celestial spheres; rather, he concluded, the teaching about the Torah's preexistence must be a metaphoric riddle.

Judah Halevi attempts to alleviate the argument by explaining that the Torah precedes the world in terms of teleology; God created the world for the purpose of revealing the Torah; therefore, since, as the philosophers say, "the first of thought is the end of the work," the Torah is said to have existed before the world

See the following for the rest of the article:

Source: The Written Law - Torah



Quasar92

What is "badly misinformed" about the following?

Matthew 5:18
For truly I say to you, the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

John 19:28
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, *said, “I am thirsty.”


Did Christ "accomplish",i.e. fulfill, the law of Moses?

 

[seventysevens]

Did Christ "accomplish",i.e. fulfill, the law of Moses?

Because this could become an extensive dialogue because it is not a simple manner to explain - it should be first acknowledge why the law of Moses was given in the first place.
Just as LORD said they have HIM as king - they insisted on a human king and the LORD said - have it your way; he will give a human king and He decides who that human king would be -
In modern times we have a saying of be careful of what you wish for cause you may get more than you bargained for

When Moses Law 10 Commandments were given - it was given to prove to humans that they cannot fulfill it - no human could - That IS the point - It made people slaves to the law because they were always trying to fulfill it - always trying to live up to it and no human can live up to it 24/7/365 -

The Law was given to show humans that no matter what they think or believe they cannot live up to what the law demands - it was LORDS way of showing that humanity Needs the Lord - for they cannot survive without HIM

Ask yourself if you believe ALL of the law is accomplished and no longer needed - do you really believe that these parts of the law are no longer needed ?

You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs

These are all part of the Law given by Moses - does Jesus crucifixion do away with
these ? Nope Not at all

This does not mean Christians should have no concern to follow God’s law. Christ frees us to obey it. Jesus’ disciples are called to a genuine love of God and neighbor (22:37–40; see 7:21). Jesus Himself embodied it throughout His life.
Through His obedience, Jesus releases us from the burden of trying to earn our salvation. We are to be merciful because of the mercy Jesus has shown to us (5:7; 9:13; 12:7; 23:23; see Hos. 6:6; Matt. 18:33). In sum, the law of God is an abiding witness to the person and work of Christ,
We are now free from having to try to fulfill the law - free from having to live up to the law - We are to learn that LORD is needed to survive and give every moment of our lives to the ONE who gives us life

But sadly there are still those who feel they have to earn salvation through their works and someday they will find that their views were in vain as they cannot do or perform enough works to gain salvation or enter into heaven because it is not obtainable through works as it is a GIFT from Jesus for believing in HIM -
The above laws will always be in effect and never pass away

 

[Quasar92]

What is "badly misinformed" about the following?

Matthew 5:18
For truly I say to you, the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

John 19:28
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, *said, “I am thirsty.”


Did Christ "accomplish",i.e. fulfill, the law of Moses?

You simply don't understand the fact that Israel has NEVER accepted the tenets of the New Covenant, and won't until Jesus second coming, as rcorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.

That Jesus fulfilled every aspect of it and that His Church was formulated from it, IS NOT THE ISSUE! They are all fully supported by the Scriptures.

Show me anywhere in the Scriptures where you think they have accepted Jesus as their Messiah, which is parallel to accepting the New Covenant of Grace as well!


Quasar92

 

[seventysevens]

You simply don't understand the fact that Israel has NEVER accepted the tenets of the New Covenant, and won't until Jesus second coming, as rcorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.

That Jesus fulfilled every aspect of it and that His Church was formulated from it, IS NOT THE ISSUE! They are all fully supported by the Scriptures.

Show me anywhere in the Scriptures where you think they have accepted Jesus as their Messiah, which is parallel to accepting the New Covenant of Grace as well!


Quasar92

Amen! Those who insist that the Church is all Israel will not understand it even though it is right out in front for everyone to see

 

[BABerean2]

You simply don't understand the fact that Israel has NEVER accepted the tenets of the New Covenant, and won't until Jesus second coming, as rcorded in Zech.12:10

Have you cut the following scripture out of your Bible?

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


In the NKJV below the Old Testament text is in Uppercase letters.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (NKJV)



Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

.

 

[seventysevens]

Have you cut the following scripture out of your Bible?

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


In the NKJV below the Old Testament text is in Uppercase letters.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (NKJV)



Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Do you not understands that the scripture that HE WILL - future tense as in not yet
If that had happened Jesus would not have been crucified
you twist scripture to any way to cram into to what you want it to say even though it does not say what you want
Show me anywhere in the Scriptures where you think they have accepted Jesus as their Messiah !

Not the Messianic Jews - it's not there because it has not yet happened - if it had happened there would be no reason for the punishment of Israel to come

you are hanging onto a failed doctrine

 

[seventysevens]

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.



Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (NKJV)



Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Most of what you rely on is still in the future and has not happened yet but your failed amil doctrine has tricked you into believing it has
Letting someone know does not mean they accept it - just as letting you know and you choose to ignore scripture - Just as Israel refuses the truth - so do you - until the remainder of the prophecies are fulfilled - then you will understand just as at that time Israel will then accept the truth