Is Just War ever acceptable?

[Francis Drake]

Did you miss my analogy about me praying to God for an angel to protect me and God telling that angel to use whatever force necessary to protect me?

I didn't miss it at all, I just dismissed it as irrelevant.

It is the same situation with the police except the players are different. Oh, and no. I do not know what country you live in, but here in the US, the police are not a hit squad. They don't shoot first and ask questions later. If you want to continue to argue otherwise, then have fun. But this is pretty obvious that they are not a hit squad. Maybe in some other countries they are; But not here.

I live in the UK where the police are generally unarmed. Nevertheless the UK police are still a hit squad, and despite your head in the sand thinking, (or maybe I should call it head in the clouds thinking,) your armed US police are even more so!
If police forces are not a potential hit squad ie. carrying the sword, then they cannot be a part of God's ordained government of the nations.
Romans13v4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain:

First, nobody was harmed physically. Second, nobody's lives were in any real danger.

That's an amazing delusion with absolutely no scriptural basis!

Jesus took a whip to them and overturned their money tables. He was obviously outnumbered many times over so, do you seriously imagine they all stood back and freely let him do that. Jesus must have been able to overcome their resistance by shear physical strength and the use of his whip.

If Jesus shot flaming arrows into the crowd, they would more than likely would have arrested him for endangering the lives of others.

There you go again with another imaginary scenario. Better to stick to the written script.
Why he wasn't arrested isn't mentioned despite the obvious seriousness of his offense.

In fact, if anyone was harmed, they would have used that against him at his trial. But that didn't happen now did it.

Jesus using the whip was in John2, that's about 3 years before his trial, so hardly likely to be relevant. His later venture into the temple doesn't seem to have included the whip.

 

[Armoured]

Just war > Unjust peace

but there's no point in war now because nothing humanity can do will ever regenerate this world from its fallen state. entering the darkest hour mankind will ever face

Despite world wide decreases in disease, hunger and violence, and increases in education, living standards and connectededness, yeah, sure. Worst days ever.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn't miss it at all, I just dismissed it as irrelevant.

I live in the UK where the police are generally unarmed. Nevertheless the UK police are still a hit squad, and despite your head in the sand thinking, (or maybe I should call it head in the clouds thinking,) your armed US police are even more so!
If police forces are not a potential hit squad ie. carrying the sword, then they cannot be a part of God's ordained government of the nations.
Romans13v4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain:

That's an amazing delusion with absolutely no scriptural basis!

Jesus took a whip to them and overturned their money tables. He was obviously outnumbered many times over so, do you seriously imagine they all stood back and freely let him do that. Jesus must have been able to overcome their resistance by shear physical strength and the use of his whip.

There you go again with another imaginary scenario. Better to stick to the written script.
Why he wasn't arrested isn't mentioned despite the obvious seriousness of his offense.

Jesus using the whip was in John2, that's about 3 years before his trial, so hardly likely to be relevant. His later venture into the temple doesn't seem to have included the whip.

Sorry. You are just hitting the disagree button repeatedly with no real logical thought and you are not offering anything Biblical or substantial in the real world to counter what I actually said. By your response it appears nothing I say will convince you otherwise.

Good day to you, sir;
And may the Lord’s love shine upon you today.

 

[RDKirk]

I didn't miss it at all, I just dismissed it as irrelevant.

I live in the UK where the police are generally unarmed. Nevertheless the UK police are still a hit squad, and despite your head in the sand thinking, (or maybe I should call it head in the clouds thinking,) your armed US police are even more so!
If police forces are not a potential hit squad ie. carrying the sword, then they cannot be a part of God's ordained government of the nations.

The fact that God removes kings and establishes kings does not mean those kings become standards of righteousness or that their actions are righteous.

Kings establish order in their kingdoms to maintain the wealth and power of the ruling structure, not to establish righteousness.

But in this age, the Body of Christ does benefit from an orderly society, even if that order is oppressive and unrighteous.

Paul could speak of this. Despite the fact that the Roman Empire under Nero was unrighteous--Nero was a pagan who did despicable things, Roman soldiers terrorized and murdered under his command--that same Roman power to maintain authority kept Paul protected from Jews who intended to murder him. That wasn't because Rome was righteous, that was because it was a threat to their power for anyone else but them to murder at will.

A pastor has said, "Satan moves easily under the veil of chaos," and that is true. An orderly society--even if unjust and oppressive--is more useful to the Body of Christ than social chaos. We can see that in the difference between an unjust and oppressive society like North Korea--where three generations of ruthless oppression has failed to extinguish the Body of Christ (the Body of Christ has grown in North Korea from about 5,000 in the mid 90s to about 50,000 today)--and the total chaos of south Sudan where even Christ cannot gain a foothold.

God removes kings and establishes kings. He uses kings for His own purposes, but that does not inviolate the absolute fact that "those who live by the sword will die by the sword," and all kings live by the sword--by having greater power to kill than anyone else.

All earthly nations fall. All fall. There is no exception. Even those existing when Christ returns will be brought down by Christ Himself.

The Body of Christ is not to be tied to that which will be destroyed.

 

[Francis Drake]

Sorry. You are just hitting the disagree button repeatedly with no real logical thought and you are not offering anything Biblical or substantial in the real world to counter what I actually said. By your response it appears nothing I say will convince you otherwise.

Good day to you, sir;
And may the Lord’s love shine upon you today.

No sir, I am just pointing out your misuse of scripture and misuse of facts.

 

[Francis Drake]

The fact that God removes kings and establishes kings does not mean those kings become standards of righteousness or that their actions are righteous.

Never doubted that for one moment.

Kings establish order in their kingdoms to maintain the wealth and power of the ruling structure, not to establish righteousness.

Never doubted that for one moment.

But in this age, the Body of Christ does benefit from an orderly society, even if that order is oppressive and unrighteous.

Today's society is no more ordered in a spiritual sense than it was 2 or 3 thousand years ago.

Paul could speak of this. Despite the fact that the Roman Empire under Nero was unrighteous--Nero was a pagan who did despicable things, Roman soldiers terrorized and murdered under his command--that same Roman power to maintain authority kept Paul protected from Jews who intended to murder him. That wasn't because Rome was righteous, that was because it was a threat to their power for anyone else but them to murder at will.

Never doubted that for one moment.

A pastor has said, "Satan moves easily under the veil of chaos," and that is true. An orderly society--even if unjust and oppressive--is more useful to the Body of Christ than social chaos. We can see that in the difference between an unjust and oppressive society like North Korea--where three generations of ruthless oppression has failed to extinguish the Body of Christ (the Body of Christ has grown in North Korea from about 5,000 in the mid 90s to about 50,000 today)--and the total chaos of south Sudan where even Christ cannot gain a foothold.

That all sounds reasonable, until you realise that the Antichrist will not come fighting publicly in direct opposition to Christ, but acting in the place of Christ.
ie. He will be well accepted among a well ordered society.

God removes kings and establishes kings. He uses kings for His own purposes, but that does not inviolate the absolute fact that "

those who live by the sword will die by the sword," and all kings live by the sword--by having greater power to kill than anyone else.

All earthly nations fall. All fall. There is no exception. Even those existing when Christ returns will be brought down by Christ Himself.

The Body of Christ is not to be tied to that which will be destroyed.

None of this makes any difference to what I said.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No sir, I am just pointing out your misuse of scripture and misuse of facts.

God bless you in the good things of the Lord that you do.

 

[Francis Drake]

God bless you in the good things of the Lord that you do.

I thought you weren't talking to me?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I wish there never needed to be war. I pray one day there will be no more war.

I think that no wishing is necessary nor helpful - wars are necessary until Jesus Returns, even though there has been and will be no just war.

The one(s) responsible for (all the wars) bloodshed ? - YHWH will take vengeance on them soon.
His Word says this clearly.

We can trust YHWH THE CREATOR, by GRACE in JESUS, and rely on HIM.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I would like other people to reply to this, to make sure I'm not missing something, because I have asked over and over again what would you as a Christian do in that situation, and no matter the length of all of your replies, you have still not provided a single direct answer. What does "being like a dove" mean when people are being hacked to death in front of you?

I think, though am not totally certain, that the answer you seek is in Foxes Book of Martyrs --- the true testimony of hundreds or thousands of ekklesia who were 'hacked' to death for their faith (and one or more shriveling cowards who renounced their faith in order to "save" their pitiable life (in their place, once, a seventeen year old girl immediately stepped forward and said "how can you renounce your faith in Jesus this way, after all that He has done for you?"
and
she was promptly hacked to pieces (or just killed) in his place...

Foxes Book is available free pdf online....

 

[Sammy-San]

I don't know. But Nate Saint told the truth: A Christian is ready to meet his Maker, but he cannot know that anyone else is, nor should he choose to take away that possibility.



Not our judgment to make.

Correct-there are vietnam veterans who are now saved due to evangelism. Holy Joe in the Vietnam War

 

[kepha31]

I think, though am not totally certain, that the answer you seek is in Foxes Book of Martyrs --- the true testimony of hundreds or thousands of ekklesia who were 'hacked' to death for their faith (and one or more shriveling cowards who renounced their faith in order to "save" their pitiable life (in their place, once, a seventeen year old girl immediately stepped forward and said "how can you renounce your faith in Jesus this way, after all that He has done for you?"
and
she was promptly hacked to pieces (or just killed) in his place...

Foxes Book is available free pdf online....

Foxe’s book of martyrs is mostly accurate, but it is extremely biased against the Catholic Church. The coverage of them martyrdoms in the early Church is generally good. It can serve as a great inspiration to see the early Christians standing up to withering persecution by the Roman empire. However, if you take a fair look at Church history, you will find that this book was written more as a polemic against Catholicism than as an accurate story of the martyrdoms experienced by Christians at the hands of her enemies.

What this book does not report is the sad story of Protestants using their faith as an excuse to kill Catholics, and more significantly, the Anabaptists in the sixteenth century. Foxe describes the brutal oppression of the early Protestants in England, but fails to mention the murders and executions which the Anglicans committed against the Catholics once they took power in England. In fairness to the Anglican leaders, Roman Catholics plotted incessantly to restore Catholic power in England throughout the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. For national security reasons some of the mistreatment of the Catholic elite may have been justifiable, but this does not excuse the unchristian behavior and the oppression of the common believers who wanted to submit to Rome. Also, Protestant England jailed and killed many Purintans and other dissenters. Their treatment of religious dissenters was hardly better than that described of Catholics against Protestants.

Arguably the most blatant omission of Foxe is the treatment by both the Lutherans and the Reformed Zwingliites of the Anabaptists in the sixteenth century. The Anabaptists were, arguably, the most Christian of all the groups which arose at the time of the Reformation. They rejected the tie between Church and state, taught baptism of adults upon a confession of faith, preached personal devotion and commitment to Jesus, lived a simple, Christ-like lifestyle and generally gave greater honor to the scriptures than the Lutherans and the followers of Zwingli and Calvin, yet they were viciously persecuted. Thousands were arrested and killed by both by burning at the stake and drownings at the hands of the Protestants that Foxe is presenting as innocent of such atrocities. Zwingli himself did not die a martyr. He died in a battle, fighting as a soldier against his religious rivals.
Evidence for Christianity | Evidence for Christianity Website

Protestant Inquisitions: “Reformation” Intolerance & Persecution

 

[Sammy-San]

I don't know. But Nate Saint told the truth: A Christian is ready to meet his Maker, but he cannot know that anyone else is, nor should he choose to take away that possibility.



Not our judgment to make.

What makes us not becomin monks different from Christians killing in self defense? Billions Of People Are On Their Way To Hell!

I’ve never heard anything like this on radio or TV, but it's a fact. Every day in this world, 313,000 people on average fulfill their appointment with death. Could you imagine reading the front page of a newspaper and seeing something like... “313,000 PEOPLE DEAD!”? It happens every single day my friend! The reason you’ll never see something like this is because it isn’t glamorous. People like to hear about the one person who was shot to death, or the CEO that jumped out of his office window, or the mentally-ill woman who drove her car into a group of pedestrians.


Their sins have not been forgiven. We estimated that 313,111 humans die every day on average. 313,111 minus 10% equals 281,800 people that perish into Hell-fire and destruction every single day that passes. So roughly, 275,000 HUMANS PLUNGE INTO HELL-FIRE EACH AND EVERY DAY! We also see that 31,311 people (10%) make it to Heaven each day on average. Of course, this is my opinion. We don't know the actual ratio of saved verses lost throughout the world. I can tell you one thing, most of the saved people in the world are amongst the poorest, as the Word of God teaches (James 2:5).

Its less weighty?

 

[RDKirk]

What makes us not becomin monks different from Christians killing in self defense? Billions Of People Are On Their Way To Hell!


Its less weighty?

I don't understand the point you're attempting to make against what I said.

 

[Sammy-San]

I don't understand the point you're attempting to make against what I said.

Two different situations?

 

[Sammy-San]

I don't know. But Nate Saint told the truth: A Christian is ready to meet his Maker, but he cannot know that anyone else is, nor should he choose to take away that possibility.



Not our judgment to make.

Can Christians Kill in Self-Defense?

I have heard Bible-hating scoffers make the argument that if a Christian is truly saved, then the Christian should die off so the thief can live on, but anyone who reads their Bible knows that's a ridiculous notion. Again, God does not protect the wicked, and we all must pay the consequences of our actions, whether in this life or the next.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
-Galatians 6:7

The time may come that you must defend your home and your family. As a Christian, we want to be ready to show mercy to others, as the Lord has shown mercy to us, but you should also be ready to do what is necessary to protect yourself and your family from the wicked. You do not need to pour guilt on yourself for defending your home and family.

 

[RDKirk]

Can Christians Kill in Self-Defense?

So?

 

[Sammy-San]

So?

What about the monk story I told you about?

 

[Sammy-San]

So?

It would depend on the person's motive and heart towards the attacker.

Also, the hundreds of millions of islamic people who died unsaved and found out the truth to late didn't have interceders. The harvest is plenty the workers are few. Were the Christians who didnt pray every day for revival and the harvest of strangers in sin?

 

[RDKirk]

It would depend on the person's motive and heart towards the attacker.

Also, the hundreds of millions of islamic people who died unsaved and found out the truth to late didn't have interceders. The harvest is plenty the workers are few. Were the Christians who didnt pray every day for revival and the harvest of strangers in sin?

You're only responsible for your decisions with regard to situations presented to you.