Is There Such a Thing as a Biblical Feminist?

SolomonVII

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Which is why I started this thread. There are clear violations of women in the world, and I have first hand knowledge, in Christian marriages. I am trying to read every post, even if I can't respond to every post. As I consider what all the men in this thread have said, we all agree that violence against women is antithetical to Christ. The arguments I see are the result of men attributing the negative aspects of secular feminism as part of what the sisters believe too in this thread. I see some negative influence on the sisters, but I don't see them contradicting Christ. Hence I am still seeking the common ground.
Christian men have been against rape and domestic abuse long before the feminists introduced their agenda against the patriarchy. That agenda describes masculinity as toxic regardless of the fact that every man in Christ recognizes violence and sexual perversity against a woman's body is a crime against God himself.
 
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Micah888

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Thank you for that input. Others have pointed out the victim mentality of feminism, too, and have been mocked and scorned by the sisters who embrace being a feminist.
Venus Williams (sportswoman) has just chimed in about this matter, and helped to put things in perspective:
American tennis player Venus Williams told Elle U.K. that she doesn’t identify as a feminist and thinks women have more opportunities than they’ve ever had before.

“I don’t like labels, though I do think as women we have much more power and opportunities in our hands than ever before,” Williams told Elle in an interview for its June magazine issue.

Venus Williams Issues Controversial Statements on Women, Feminism
 
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Zoii

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Christian men have been against rape and domestic abuse long before the feminists introduced their agenda against the patriarchy. That agenda describes masculinity as toxic regardless of the fact that every man in Christ recognizes violence and sexual perversity against a woman's body is a crime against God himself.
The issue isn't so much that christian men recognise that sexual and domestic assault is wrong. I'd hope that ALL men recognised it as wrong regardless of their religious status. The issue is that whether they recognise their act as wrong or not, domestic and sexual assault happen prolifically in your country and mine and its just as prevalent in christian societies, even amongst the clergy.

And in any case, even now we get christian leaders who insist women endure domestic violence in their marriage, and christian men take verses in the bible and use them to justify the unforgivable. 'Submit to your husbands': Women told to endure domestic violence in the name of God

So thank you for your staunch support of feminist values but feminists such as myself don't believe our job is done yet - far from it.
 
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Paidiske

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This means nothing. Most languages around the world ascribe masculine and feminine gender to inanimate objects. Is a table feminine? It is just a man made object, yet in Spanish, they call it "la mesa" in the feminine. Gender in language is more a matter of people ascribing gender than gender being inherently in the inanimate object.

Which is exactly my argument about God. As one Jewish person I talked about with this said to me, in English, "the mountain, he quakes" is non-literal use of a gendered pronoun (although we find that exact sort of construction in Hebrew); and perhaps we ought to be able to recognise the same thing in our use of gendered pronouns for God?

For women to boil men down to a penis is as shallow as men seeing women as sex objects..

I'm not "boiling men down to a penis." Every man is a whole person, with a unique mix of gifts and passions and personality and so on. Which is the exact opposite of seeing men as a sex object. (And is just as true of every woman).

What I'm trying to say is that the maleness is a matter of biology; of chromosomes and hormones and sexual characteristics. But I'm not reducing a person to their biology - to their sex or gender - that's exactly what I'm arguing against!

I know you are not. But you are arguing that as a Spirit God is gender neutral, which is not supported by Scripture.

Not exactly. I'm arguing that we cannot project attributes of human biology back onto God. Talking about God as male vs. female is as inappropriate as talking about God as blonde vs. brunette. It's about bodies, and God doesn't have one.

Correct. There are exceptions to the general, but the general still remains greater than the exceptions.

The problem with this is when we try to pigeonhole everyone based on generalisations.

That agenda describes masculinity as toxic regardless of the fact that every man in Christ recognizes violence and sexual perversity against a woman's body is a crime against God himself.

I believe you have misunderstood the phrase "toxic masculinity," which is not saying masculinity is toxic per se, but is describing particular cultural ideas about masculinity (especially in relationship to femininity) as toxic.

"The concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology and gender studies to refer to certain norms of masculine behavior in North America and Europe that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. Other stereotypically masculine traits, such as self-reliance and the stifling of emotions, are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse.

Other traditionally masculine traits such as devotion to work, pride in excelling at sports, and providing for one's family, are not considered to be "toxic". The concept of toxic masculinity was originally used by authors associated with the mythopoetic men's movement in contrast to a "real" or "deep" masculinity that they say men have lost touch with in modern society."

From here: Toxic masculinity - Wikipedia
 
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Strong in Him

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We are all accountable to God, to be sure, but God still held Adam responsible for not stopping Eve from her deception.

When Adam was given the command not to eat the fruit of a certain tree, Eve had not been created, Genesis 2:16-20. We are not told that the Lord spoke to Eve after she had been created to give her the same command, so it's not unreasonable to say that Adam told her - or that God expected Adam to tell her.
No doubt Adam told her something, because when the serpent asked Eve about eating the fruit, she repeated the gist of God's command - but she got it slightly wrong, Genesis 3:3, Genesis 2:16. This suggests, to me, that she hadn't been listening or that her mind was on other things, maybe she was talking to an animal. Maybe this is what Paul meant in 1 Timothy 2:11-14 where he says "A woman should learn in quietness and submission", and then goes on to say FOR Eve was the one who was deceived. Yes, if she hadn't been listening properly it would have been easier to deceive her, she would have been unsure of what God had said. If someone knows something for certain, they cannot be, or it is harder for them to be, deceived. And if someone is talking/not listening while someone else is talking/teaching, it is very likely they won't hear what the person has said, or understand correctly.
Note that the serpent didn't go to Adam and say "DID God say ....?" Adam knew perfectly well what God had said; he'd heard him. He was deliberately disobedient.

God held Eve responsible for her actions, that is why she was punished. But sin came into the world through Adam, Romans 5:12-21, because Adam knew for himself what God had said and yet disobeyed his word.
 
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mkgal1

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SolomonVII said:
That agenda describes masculinity as toxic regardless of the fact that every man in Christ recognizes violence and sexual perversity against a woman's body is a crime against God himself.
I just wanted to add to what Paidiske already wrote. These articles (IMO) explain very well how toxic masculinity poisons everyone (including the men affected):

------------> It’s a masculinity that defines itself not only in opposition to female-ness, but as inherently superior, drawing its strength from dominance over women’s “weakness,” and creating men who are happy to deliberately undermine women’s power; it is only in opposition to female vulnerability that it can be strong. Or, as former NFL quarterback and newly-minted feminist Don McPherson recently put it, "We don't raise boys to be men. We raise them not to be women, or gay men." This starts in childhood for many boys, who are taught young that they’ll be punished for doing anything “girly,” from playing with dolls to crying, or even preferring to read over “rough housing” outside.~Toxic Masculinity

------------->For years, men have been told that what makes them better people is the size of their house, the expensive car in the driveway, and the hot wife who cooks and cleans all while being a perfect mother. Thanks to Madison Ave's slickly packaged profile of the American male, we act more like sheep and less like men; wandering around bragging about our serial sexual conquests, career accomplishments, and foretold financial success, while the best and brightest marketing minds shepherd our next identity theft from BMW to Bentley, from Cavali to Calvin Klein.

This is all part of "The Big Lie" that has plagued generations of men and established a culturally accepted definition of what Joe Ehrmann calls "false masculinity". Simply stated, it means men define their worth by the following three components: athletic achievement, sexual conquest and economic success. False masculinity has its roots in the father and son dysfunction - in which sons seek the love and approval of their fathers through some measure of performance - be it athletic or otherwise.

Ehrmann believes "false masculinity" is devastating marriages, undermining relationships and is a primary driver for many of the social problems facing America.

"Masculinity, first and foremost ought to be defined in terms of relationships," Ehrmann said. " It ought to be taught in terms of the capacity to love and to be loved. Success in life cant be measured by what you've acquired or achieved or what you own."

Not Your Average Joe | Rebel Magazine
 
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mkgal1

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There is not a single instance of God being referred to in the feminine

Hosea 11:3-4:
God: “Yet it was I who taught Ephraim to walk, I who took them up in my arms; but they did not know that I healed them. I led them with cords of human kindness, with bands of love. I was to them like those who lift infants to their cheeks. I bent down to them and fed them.”


Hosea 13:8 God described as a mother bear

“Like a bear robbed of her cubs, I will attack them and tear them asunder…”

Deuteronomy 32:18 God who gives birth

“You were unmindful of the Rock that bore you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.”

Isaiah 66:13 God as a comforting mother

God: “As a mother comforts her child, so I will comfort you; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.”

Isaiah 49:15 God compared to a nursing mother

God: “Can a woman forget her nursing child, or show no compassion for the child of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you.”

Isaiah 42:14 God as a woman in labor

God: “For a long time I have held my peace, I have kept myself still and restrained myself; now I will cry out like a woman in labor, I will gasp and pant.”



Psalm 131:2 God as a Mother

“But I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child with its mother; my soul is like the weaned child that is with me.”

Psalm 123:2-3 God compared to a woman

“As the eyes of a servant looks to the hand of their master, as the eyes of a maid to the hand of her mistress, so our eyes look to you, YHWH, until you show us your mercy!”

Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34 God as a Mother Hen

Jesus: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”

Luke 15:8-10 God as woman looking for her lost coin

Jesus: “Or what woman having ten silver coins, is she loses one of them, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”~Google search for "feminine metaphors used in the Bible for God"
 
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AlexDTX

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I don't really think that with issues like feminism (against the oppression of women) a Christian can really be identified by it (at least alone), since we are simply anti-oppression in general, of all types (except justly against Satan). A better thing in my opinion is to be focused on the oppression of whoever is the worst-off locally (as in who you can help immediately),
Sound advise. We bloom where we are planted and we help those within our spheres.

Obviously doing that would include some parts of feminism (all those parts that are compatible with Christianity, and depending on your definition "biblical femininity"), but it wouldn't be identified by it exclusively (or maybe not even at all).

I think there is overlap, too, but the approach of a secular feminist and a Christian will be quite different.
 
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AlexDTX

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But there is no good reason to be embarrassing to them any more than a cough or sneeze. It sounds like a poor environment.
Have you never worked with girls before? Reason is never an issue. Girls in puberty are extremely self conscious and everything is magnified way out of proportion.
 
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mkgal1

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Metaphors are not the same as God declaring he is a female spirit.
This was your claim that I was responding to:

There is not a single instance of God being referred to in the feminine

The Bible also doesn't declare God as a *male* spirit. All we have are metaphors....and they are not all masculine.
 
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AlexDTX

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There is a third option: exhortation. That is, I encourage my fellow Christians to live into the fullness of the gospel message.
Sinful cultures do not refer to the Church. Exhortation on the lost is weak and ineffective in the long run.
 
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AlexDTX

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You do realise that some women commit sexual abuse? A smaller proportion of us, but it does happen and mustn't be overlooked.
Exceptions always exist, but the general still stand and is the majority.

Hmm. What do you think of the concept of already-inaugurated eschatology? The idea that the reign of God is breaking into and transforming human lives now, as a foretaste of the fullness of what is to come?
Not sure if I understand your terms. However, the kingdom of God is here in part because of being in the hearts of those with the new birth. But until the Lord returns, and the new heaven and earth are unveiled, the kingdom is only partly here.

I disagree. Studies in human cognitive development have shown that we develop a sense of right and wrong as we grow; our conscience is formed by our environment.
Of course, the knowledge of right and wrong is modified by environment, but you are disagreeing with Scripture. In Romans 2 explains that the knowledge of what is right (the Law) is in the hearts of all. Therefore one who is not a Jew who does what is right without the law is a Jew inwardly because of knowing and doing what is right. The Gentile did not have the Mosaic Law, yet, right and wrong was still known not by culture but by the heart.

I'm not saying God is feminine. I'm saying that defining God in terms of human sex is inappropriate. We can't project back from our bodies/bodied experience, onto the creator of the universe.
Yes, you have said He is gender neutral, but He calls himself in the masculine and the masculine pronoun is used of him in the Hebrew and the Greek.
 
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Dave-W

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Yes, but metaphorically in meaning he is our provider, or source of food.
Don't be so western or linear in your thinking.

BOTH are true, the metaphorical and the plain meaning.
 
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Dave-W

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Yes, you have said He is gender neutral, but He calls himself in the masculine and the masculine pronoun is used of him in the Hebrew and the Greek.
Gender neutral is again a product of western linear thinking. It is not that HE is neither; rather the text seems to indicate He is BOTH.

Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.​

IOW both male and female are equally in His image.
 
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SolomonVII

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Have you never worked with girls before? Reason is never an issue. Girls in puberty are extremely self conscious and everything is magnified way out of proportion.
Psychologist Jordan Peterson discusses this at length. The differences between males and females are real enough, and this self consciousness that makes its presence among girls and women much more than men is a very painful thing, unpleasant experience for anyone to go through.

There are also evolutionary reasons for the sexual differences between males and females, even the painful, uncomfortable ones. Not every evolutionary adaptation has been to make us comfortable, and the fact that differences between males and females exist at the level of biology and physiology make it apparent that no every difference between males and females in society is due to social oppression, like toxic feminism would pretend it all to be.
 
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mkgal1

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But until the Lord returns, and the new heaven and earth are unveiled, the kingdom is only partly here.
You had said something about transformation only being temporary, and that we need to wait until the Lord returns to transform things. I disagree. We ARE His church....we have a mission....and I believe that mission is His transforming work.

 
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mkgal1

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Psychologist Jordan Peterson discusses this at length. The differences between males and females are real enough, and this self consciousness that makes its presence among girls and women much more than men is a very painful thing, unpleasant experience for anyone to go through.
These differences are caused by cultural shaming. That is not something fixed and inherent to individuals.
 
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