Is sin really the transgression of the law?

[BobRyan]

1. The term Old Covenant was never used by Christ in the Gospels and is never found in the O.T.
2. The term is used with two contexts in the NT.
2.A - to speak of the Gospel liturgy used in worship under the system of animal sacrifices.
2.B - to speak of the "obey and live" covenant first made with Adam -- under which all mankind is lost even to this very day --and no forgiveness of sins is offered

You are conflating the two in your responses which leads you to believe we are supposed to ignore the teaching of Christ - as Christians.

Lots of detail on this - already posted here

And on this thread - see the OP -
Apr 6, 2018 #1

Read the actual New Covenant in Hebrews 8[/QUOTE]

If there is a NEW covenant, it replaces the OLD covenant, obviously.

True - but only for those under the New Covenant.

The lost are not under the New Covenant -- if they were they would be save, forgiven of sin, and have the LAW of God written on their heart, and adopted into the family of God as we see in Hebrews 8.

That is not what a lost person has. What a lost person has is "obey and live" which is why they are lost.

 

[Marco70]

But under the NEW covenant there IS forgiveness of sin for those who do things like "take God's name in vain" but there is ZERO command to "Go on taking God's name in vain" -- hence all the Romans 6 texts I quoted and that we do not find in your posts

So Jesus died only for past sins? So if a person continues to have impure thoughts, I assume they cannot be saved either. The tenth commandment matters as much as the third one, yes?

 

[Marco70]

Alread addressed here -



And here



And here

================



We call that the "Old Covenant" and it offers no forgiveness of sins.

But under the NEW covenant there IS forgiveness of sin for those who do things like "take God's name in vain" but there is ZERO command to "Go on taking God's name in vain" -- hence all the Romans 6 texts I quoted and that we do not find in your posts

Yes, I know your example. No condemnation of the law if you do not break the law. Same under the OC. So no change under either covenant in your view

 

[BobRyan]

The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
Jeremiah 31:31-33

New covenant replaces old covenant

A good example of a text that does NOT use the term "Old Covenant".

2 Cor 3:14 does use that term.
14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. NASB

14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same vail at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn -- which in Christ is being made useless --YLT

 

[Marco70]

A good example of a text that does NOT use the term "Old Covenant".

The new testament does not use the phrase, Ten Commandments, nor is there any mention that gentiles must observe a set Saturday Sabbath, therefore, using your thinking I guess you must believe, neither applies

 

[Marco70]

1of God written on their heart, and adopted into the family of God as we see in Hebrews 8.

That is not what a lost person has. What a lost person has is "obey and live" which is why they are lost.

Like. Obey the TC if you want to remain in a saved state. Obey and live, just like the OC as you keep mentioning

 

[Marco70]

Romans chapter six. 'You are dead to sin'

If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves, and the truth is not in them
1John1:8

Must read the bible as a cohesive whole

 

[Marco70]

No one is under the condemnation of any law if they do not break it. So to say you are not under the condemnation of the law under the NC, and this only applies if you do not break the law, means nothing has changed under the New Covenant, in respect of what went before, the Old Covenant
So it would be a worthless statement to make

 

[Marco70]

You are conflating the two in your responses which leads you to believe we are supposed to ignore the teaching of Christ - as Christians.

I'm afraid your logic is worldly/carnal thinking, not spiritual discernment. The standard response of carnal thinking is: If you cannot be condemned by the law you have a licence to sin/ignore the law. Let us look at the core foundation upon which the NC stands:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.
Heb 10:16&17

In a previous post I wrote, and if I remember correctly, you agreed with. The law God desires you to follow is written in your mind. You in your mind must know what has been placed in your mind. By the law being in your heart, you in your heart must want to obey it. For what is in our hearts, we in our hearts want to follow.
In this sense, you have been born again. You have been supernaturally changed from a person who seeks to do whatever you want to do in your flesh, to someone who desires to live as God wants you to live. Jesus said to Nicodemus:
You must(must) be born again. John3:7 It is not an option, it is pivotal, for if you are not born again you can have no saviour from sin. For Jesus will be no ones saviour from sin unless in their heart they desire to live as His Father wants them to live.
However, though you in your heart want to live as God as God desires you to live, you in your flesh do not want to obey, for your flesh did not get born again. And, honest and humble Christians admit, at times they commit sin. In their heart they do not want to do so, but it is a fact they do it. Now, under the core terms of the NC, what happens if you commit sin/go against how you in your heart desire to live? Here's a good example. If you are married, I will assume you love your wife(or think of anyone you love) You in your heart want to please them don't you? But though you want to make them happy, it is a fact of life you will not always act accordingly concerning that. At times you will upset them, say something unloving to them, we all do. So how are you going to feel when you go against how you in your heart want to act towards your wife? You will be struck with remorse/ your conscience will be seered. And you will have no rest, no peace until you go to your wife and tell her you are sorry for how you acted towards her, then you get your peace back. The same applies, when we wilfully transgress the law placed in our hearts and minds. You will have no rest, and no peace until you come before your father in Heaven and tell him you are sorry for how you acted, then you get your peace back. You do not tell your wife you are sorry for how you acted, for fear she will leave you if you do not, it should be the same with God. So it is utterly impossible for a born again Christian to believe they have a licence to ignore how God wants them to live
Because, and only because you have been born again/the law is in your heart and mind:
Your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more. Quite different from obey and live isn't it? Quite different from stating: Obey the TC if you want to remain in a saved state, for that is obey and live.

Notice the order in the following:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.

 

[BobRyan]

No one is under the condemnation of any law if they do not break it. So to say you are not under the condemnation of the law under the NC, and this only applies if you do not break the law, means nothing has changed under the New Covenant, in respect of what went before, the Old Covenant
So it would be a worthless statement to make

Your idea that those under grace cannot sin - is refuted by Romans 6 - and we both know it

Which is why you do not quote the Romans 6 texts I keep re-posting.

When are you going to address this glaringly obvious fact that it is STILL a sin to "take God's name in vain" even for a Christian?

This is irrefutable - and we all can see it. Your only solution is to ignore the Romans 6 details and this that I keep reminding you of in the case of taking God's name in vain -- "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 EVEN by NT standards.

"What then do we make void the LAW of God? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sin is transgression of the Holy Spirit. Not necessarily the mosaic laws.

 

[BobRyan]

So Jesus died only for past sins? So if a person continues to have impure thoughts, I assume they cannot be saved either. The tenth commandment matters as much as the third one, yes?

Peter said we are forgiven of "sins that are passed" at any point in time - if we repent and confess. Thus the lost or not at all forgiven not even of past sins - until they accept the Gospel

Again.. this would be irrefutable.

 

[BobRyan]

Sin is transgression of the Holy Spirit. Not necessarily the mosaic laws.

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said
Matthew 19
if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not commit adultery,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not steal,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not bear false witness,’ Exodus 20
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ Exodus 20
and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Lev 19:18

All of it from "The Law of Moses"

The above was spoken under the OC.

So it is "instructive" that the exact SAME list is quoted by Paul in Romans 13 insisting that we must fulfill them.

However. The young man claimed he had obeyed the law you quoted since his childhood. What was Jesus response?
'Just one thing you lack.'
He did not tell the young man: Well done, you will inherit eternal life did he?
So why, if the young man claimed to keep the TC did Jesus tell him he lacked anything, in your view?

It is the same LAW of God - the same moral law that defines what sin IS that is "written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant -- and is condemning all mankind as sinners under the Old Covenant of "obey and live". The young man was thinking "old covenant" that he could survive "obey and live" Jesus points out that he needs a savior and is defective by saying "sell all that you have and follow Me" the man was confronted with the sin of coveting in his life and the sin of having other gods (money) before the One True God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

Did you read the whole chapter or just that one verse? John explains God’s commandments in verse 23.

“See how very much our Father loves us, for he calls us his children, and that is what we are! But the people who belong to this world don’t recognize that we are God’s children because they don’t know him. Dear friends, we are already God’s children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is. And all who have this eager expectation will keep themselves pure, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is. Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God. This is the message you have heard from the beginning: We should love one another. We must not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and killed his brother. And why did he kill him? Because Cain had been doing what was evil, and his brother had been doing what was righteous. So don’t be surprised, dear brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. If we love our brothers and sisters who are believers, it proves that we have passed from death to life. But a person who has no love is still dead. Anyone who hates another brother or sister is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don’t have eternal life within them. We know what real love is because Jesus gave up his life for us. So we also ought to give up our lives for our brothers and sisters. If someone has enough money to live well and sees a brother or sister in need but shows no compassion—how can God’s love be in that person? Dear children, let’s not merely say that we love each other; let us show the truth by our actions. Our actions will show that we belong to the truth, so we will be confident when we stand before God. Even if we feel guilty, God is greater than our feelings, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if we don’t feel guilty, we can come to God with bold confidence. And we will receive from him whatever we ask because we obey him and do the things that please him. And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us. Those who obey God’s commandments remain in fellowship with him, and he with them. And we know he lives in us because the Spirit he gave us lives in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:1-24

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus said
Matthew 19
if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not commit adultery,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not steal,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not bear false witness,’ Exodus 20
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ Exodus 20
and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Lev 19:18

All of it from "The Law of Moses"




So it is "instructive" that the exact SAME list is quoted by Paul in Romans 13 insisting that we must fulfill them.



It is the same LAW of God - the same moral law that defines what sin IS that is "written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant -- and is condemning all mankind as sinners under the Old Covenant of "obey and live". The young man was thinking "old covenant" that he could survive "obey and live" Jesus points out that he needs a savior and is defective by saying "sell all that you have and follow Me" the man was confronted with the sin of coveting in his life and the sin of having other gods (money) before the One True God.

Notice that when Jesus was asked which laws we must obey He didn’t quote all 613 commandments of God. BTW have you sold all your possessions and gave the money to the poor yet?

“Someone came to Jesus with this question: “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” “Why ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. But to answer your question—if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” the man asked. And Jesus replied: “‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother. Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” “I’ve obeyed all these commandments,” the young man replied. “What else must I do?” Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:16-21

 

[Marco70]

Your idea that those under grace cannot sin - is refuted by Romans 6 - and we both know it

Which is why you do not quote the Romans 6 texts I keep re-posting.

When are you going to address this glaringly obvious fact that it is STILL a sin to "take God's name in vain" even for a Christian?

This is irrefutable - and we all can see it. Your only solution is to ignore the Romans 6 details and this that I keep reminding you of in the case of taking God's name in vain -- "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 EVEN by NT standards.

"What then do we make void the LAW of God? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

I haven't said those under grace cannot sin. I'm sure you did not intentionally bear false witness against me

I did address romans ch6, scroll back

I agree, to take God's name in vain is sin

Absolutely. Do we then nullify the law by this faith, not at all, rather we uphold the law(though we still sin 1John1:8) However, this requires dying to the law of sin and death. Stating you can only be in a saved state if you obey the TC is living under the law of sin and death
Yep, keep his commandments. 1John 3:23

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ,# and to love one another as he commanded us. 1John3:23

Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

 

[Marco70]

Peter said we are forgiven of "sins that are passed" at any point in time - if we repent and confess. Thus the lost or not at all forgiven not even of past sins - until they accept the Gospel

Again.. this would be irrefutable.

For sure we are forgiven of past sins. If you are only forgiven of past sins, you MUST(MUST) live your life under a righteousness of observing the law. This is irrefutable. Scripture repeatedly states you do not

 

[Marco70]

Jesus said
Matthew 19
if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘
And this is his command: to believeBA)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-30603BA"> in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ,BB)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-30603BB"> and to love one another as he commanded us.

All of it from "The Law of Moses"




So it is "instructive" that the exact SAME list is quoted by Paul in Romans 13 insisting that we must fulfill them.



It is the same LAW of God - the same moral law that defines what sin IS that is "written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant -- and is condemning all mankind as sinners under the Old Covenant of "obey and live". The young man was thinking "old covenant" that he could survive "obey and live" Jesus points out that he needs a savior and is defective by saying "sell all that you have and follow Me" the man was confronted with the sin of coveting in his life and the sin of having other gods (money) before the One True God.

Sin for the believer is transgressing the law written on their mind and placed on their heart. It is no longer an external law, but an internal law placed in your most inward parts. Sin is the transgression of the law. Through the law we become conscious of sin. You agree to both statements. I have been convicted of much sin in my life, and I have been convicted of it in my heart and mind, for that is where the law has been placed. But I have never been convicted I sin by failing to observe a set Saturday Sabbath

 

[Marco70]

“‘You shall not murder,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not commit adultery,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not steal,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not bear false witness,’ Exodus 20
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ Exodus 20
and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Lev 19:18

All of it from "The Law of Moses"

BTW
If I committed murder, adultery, stole, bore false witness, failed to love-or honour my parents, and failed to love others, I would be conscious I sinned by doing so, absolutely.
And I would add this. What is the more reliable guide to conviction of sin? Inner conviction through the law written on your mind and placed on your heart, or, through deciding what sin is according to reading the letter of law written down in the OT?

I went to a church once where they ceaselessly insisted you must obey the TC. People there laughed as they took the Lords name in vain, obviously not understanding they committed sin by doing so. I was shocked, I truly was, for I instinctively knew in my heart and mind such was sin. People were having affairs, the like of which I had never seen in any other church I had ever been to, and while they were doing this, they were insisting you must obey the TC. One woman who had this lifestyle, was continually, and with great gusto shouting out: AMEN when she approved of something the minister said.
Can I commit sin? Of course, as everyone else does. Can I do so as casually as the people described? Absolutely not, it truly mystefies me how can people can respond as they do to such sin. So from my own experience, I find those who rely on reading the letter of the law to know what sin is, either seem oblivious in their lives to knowing what is and what is not sin, or, they seem able to casually break law written in the mind and placed on the heart in a way that is completely foreign to the Christianity I know. For the law placed in my heart and mind would never allow me to respond to sin as they did