Viren

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That is not what Peter says about Sodom and Gomorrah. He says THEY WERE turned into ashes. Here is what we read: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes [past tense] condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.

We know that Sodom and Gomorrah were turned to ashes with supernatural fire. Which means that the inhabitants were also turned to ashes, and MORE PRECISELY, their bodies were turned into ashes. But what about their souls and spirits? You wish to ignore the non-material aspects of sinners, but the Bible reveals that human beings consist of bodies, souls, and spirits. So where did the souls and spirits of the wicked dead from Sodom and Gomorrah go?

The Bible answers that question succinctly: The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God. (Psa 9:17)

Where is Sheol/Hades? In the heart of the earth, or in the lower parts of the earth, and today all the unsaved, the unbelieving, and the ungodly go there in order to await their final judgment. And here is what happens at the final judgment:

REVELATION 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Only those who are justified by grace through faith (in this case Lot) were written in the Book of Life. But the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah -- who are presently in Sheol/Hades -- will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

According to 1 Corinthians 15:45 "The first Adam became a living soul; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."

The first Adam died, because he was a living soul. The last Adam is Christ and has eternal life as a life-giving spirit. To have eternal life a person has to be born of Spirit. John 3:1.

The second death is just that, death. The ungodly who are cast into the lake of fire will experience final death. The beast, false prophet, Satan, the horse named death and hell aren't literal beings. They are symbols. For example, Jesus even called Peter Satan. Matt 16:23. Paul says "The God of peace will soon trample Satan under your feet" Romans 16:20. Satan is the source of lies namely your carnal mind. He isn't a literal being. The Greek word basanizo translated as torment can also mean touchstone. Everything that caused evil will be a touchstone day and night for ages and ages after the apocalypse or revelation of Jesus Christ as a reminder of the great things God has done.
 
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Der Alte

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To me when the scripture talks about one drop of water quenching Lazarus's thirst it suggests a parable. Also, if taken literally people in heaven could have conversations with their family members or friends in hell.
Would a man being tormented in fire be speaking rationally or reasonably? Or would he beg for anything which might ease his suffering? Where does Jesus say or imply that the incident of Lazarus and the rich man was the norm for everyone?
This doesn't fit with the Bible's description of heaven where their will be no tears.
The rich man was not in heaven he was in hades.
Also, Jonah was in Hades while in the belly of a fish. This suggests Hades is a deprived state not a physical location. The Bible does talk about the continued life of the soul after the death of the body, but only those who have been born again of imperishable seed.
Jonah was in fear for his life, thinking he might die at any moment and of course Jonah could not possibly be using "sheol" hyperbolically, could he? I have heard people say that this, that or the other was "hell." The meaning of a word is not determined by a single usage. Can punishing a child save him from the grave?

Proverbs 23:13-14
(13) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
(14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Also, I'm more interested in studying scripture rather than the opinions of the church fathers. To me this is how the truth of scripture can be distorted over time. Scripture is my foundation.
Are you implying that scripture is not my foundation? I trust the writings of Irenaeus, e.g. who was a student of Polycarp who was a student of John than anonymous "Viren" online. If you think any of the ECF are wrong, prove it. Those who ignore their past are doomed to repeat it. In the Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek, one of, if not the, most highly accredited lexicons available the ECF are cited as authorities for the definition of many words.
.....In addition to Luke 16:19-31 the Bible also speaks about the dead in sheol moving speaking etc.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isaiah 4:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezekiel 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Ezekiel 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
 
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Viren

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Well then you should believe what the Bible teaches -- eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire, for all those not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

So either (a) you have not really studied Scripture or (b) you pick and choose what you will believe and what you will reject.

I don't believe a horse named death will be tormented. To me that's symbolism.
 
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DeaconDean

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Your question doesn't make much sense. Did you mean to ask, If annihilationism were true, what would be the motivation for you (or anyone) to be saved? The answer is, no one wants to cease to exist. Everyone wants to live forever in bliss. Only a fool would sacrifice endless heaven for a few moments of pleasure. As i said:

"Who wants to die let alone be dead forever? Even animals & insects fight to survive. I'd rather be tormented for a trillion X a trillion X a trillion millenniums than cease to be for ever and ever and ever."

Do you only live a Christian life out of fear of endless torments? Would you have no fear of being annihilated forever?

No, my question was correct.

The OP makes the belief a fact.

Again, you miss the point.

According to scriptures, Jesus spoke more on the topic of eternal torment" than any other topic.

Yes, I do partially live a Christian life for a couple of reasons:
  1. Its the right thing to do according to scriptures and my belief in God.
  2. Yes, I fear endless torments for all eternity.
You just stated why. Millions of years of torments. Who would want that, even if they're saved after it for eternity.

For one, I have said previously that being an EMT at one point in my life, taught me that no matter the pain, no matter the injury, if a person knows there will eventually be an end to it, they can/will endure it.

I shattered my ankle 40 years ago. It hurt like a ***! But, as soon as I got to the hospital, and as soon as I was put to sleep for surgery, the pain ceased. I can endure almost anything in life as long as I have assurance that the pain will end.

If you had a child being tormented in fire, would you say there is no point in saving her, because the fire trucks will be there eventually to save her anyway?

What kind of stupid question is that?!?

As an EMT, I was also a volunteer fireman. Of course any father would try and saved their children. But, in saying so, I must admit that there are times when that is an impossibility. I've seen family members nearly on the verge of death just knowing a loved one was in a fire, and there was absolutely nothing they or we could do about it.

Scripture makes it clear that choosing God in this life is the wise decision & rejecting Him is foolish. So clearly there will be "hell to pay" for the wicked & there is reason to warn them of the wrath of God that is coming upon them if they don't repent & believe the gospel.

Absolutely. You'll get no argument from me on that.

But you still miss the point.

If annihilationism is in fact, a fact, there is really no motivation to be saved. Sure, you could and spend eternity in heaven. But, you could as well live as you want to because after all, there is the "escape clause": Annihilation.

Sooner or later, you will eventually burn up into nothing. There is an "escape" from all that.

Annihilation.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Let me quote Mike Duran:

"But there’s a single reason I do not seriously consider Annihilationism. It’s this:

Annihilationism does not seem to provoke eternal urgency.

And Jesus oozed eternal urgency.

When the Bible speaks of hell it’s always with a grim, relentless tone. You do not want to go here. And if the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is any indication, if you did go there, you would want to rush back and beg your family to avoid that place at all costs. Annihilation doesn’t seem to have such a compulsion. I mean, if the worse that’s going to happen to me is that I’m going to… disappear, why not eat, drink, and be merry?

If the punishment for not surrendering to my Maker is that I’ll just be erased, then why not live the way I want? Sure, eternal life might be better. But if I’m not around to even know the difference, who cares?"

Can Annihilationism be Hell?

Which proves my point.

One last thing. If the Greek word "aionion" does not actually mean "eternal" as it is used in Mt. 25:46, how can anybody be sure that when Jesus uses the same Greek word in Jn. 3:16, it doesn't mean the same?

If annihilationsim is true, then "eternal punishment" does not mean what is says. Ergo, eternal life cannot mean eternal. At some point if the unsaved just burn up into nothing, then those in heaven must at some point in time, also just imply "disappear".

Eternal bliss. Great, wonderful!

Burn up into nothing.

If I'm not around, what am I missing out on?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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ClementofA, no matter what I say, your going to find fault with it.

So here's what I'm going to do.

"To keep the peace", I'll unsubscribe.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Der Alte

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I don't believe a horse named death will be tormented. To me that's symbolism.
I see several problems with this reply. The horse is not named death, the rider is. Horses can't sin. The Bible nowhere says anything about animals being subject to punishment for sin. The verse in question says nothing about horses being thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Note, his name that sat on him, the pale horse, was Death. I refer to this being as the angel of death whom we first encounter in Exo 12 and Eze 9. And I call the other being the demon of hell.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Death is the point in time end of life it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. But a being named "Death", see Rev 6:8, can be thrown into the lake of fire. "Hell" can conceivably be thrown into lake of fire but neither death nor hell are living so they have not and cannot die a first death so they cannot die a second death.
.....Logically it is the the angel of death and the demon of hell, Rev 6:8, who are thrown into the lake of fire and their power to kill ended.
 
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ClementofA

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If annihilationism is in fact, a fact, there is really no motivation to be saved.

Nonsense. One motivation is to be with God & live forever. A second motivation is not to be non existent forever. A third motivation is to not suffer torments for X number of years. I previously gave you an example of trillions of millenniums of torments (which you brushed aside as if nothing).

Furthermore, only a fool would choose to ignore all those motivations (listed above) in order to do what they want for the rest of their brief life, which could be over at any moment, & is at most several decades, knowing that they could have avoided the above stated torments & have enjoyed life for all eternity. Yes, foolish in the extreme.

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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DeaconDean

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Nonsense. One motivation is to be with God & live forever. A second motivation is not to be non existent forever. A third motivation is to not suffer torments for X number of years. I previously given you an example of trillions of millenniums of torments (which you brushed aside as if nothing).

Furthermore, only a fool would choose to ignore all those motivations (listed above) in order to do what they want for the rest of their brief life, which could be over at any moment, & is at most several decades, knowing that they could have avoided the above stated torments & have enjoyed life for all eternity. Yes, foolish in the extreme.

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Your problem:

ClementofA, no matter what I say, your going to find fault with it.

If in the strictest sense, if "eternal punishment" does not mean that, then by the same token, applying the same rule, "eternal life" does not mean what it says.

If one can escape the lake of fire, and cease to exist, by rule, by the Greek, the at some point, even in heaven, one would cease to exist.

And that point was also brought out!

"Annihilationism Argument:

It is asserted that the word "eternal" only means "belonging to the age to come." Therefore, "eternal" does not mean "everlasting" or "forever and ever."

A Biblical Response:

First, while in some texts the word "eternal" (Greek, aionios) may refer to "the age to come" or "age" (Luke 1:70, etc.) in Matthew 25:46 we read:

And these will go away into eternal [aionios] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aionios] life.

The Greek word [aionios] is used numerous times in the New Testament. In addition to being used for, an eternal covenant (Heb 13:20), an eternal kingdom (2 Pet 1:11), an eternal dominion (1 Tim 6:16), an eternal gospel (Rev 14:6), an eternal redemption (Heb 9:12), an eternal salvation (Heb 5:9), an eternal inheritance (Heb 9:15), an eternal comfort (2 Thess 2:16), an eternal weight of glory (2 Cor 4:17-18; cf. 2 Tim 2:10; 1 Pet 5:10), and an eternal house (2 Cor 5:1), it is also used (1) three times to describe God's eternal nature (Rom 16:26; 1 Tim 6:16; Heb 9:14), (2) numerous times to describe the unending happiness of the redeemed (Rom 5:21; 6:23; 1 John 1:2, et. al.); and (3) five times to refer to the punishment of the wicked (Matt 18:8; 25:41, 46; 2 Thess 1:9; Jude 1:7).

In Matthew 25:46, the identical word "eternal" (Greek, aionios) is mentioned twice: (1) once in regard to the righteous and (2) and again in regards to the unrighteous. So, if the punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is merely temporary and if the Annilhilationist is consistent in their interpretation method, then Heaven, God's covenant, God's kingdom, God's dominion, the Gospel, the saint's redemption, the saint's salvation, the saint's inheritance, the saint's comfort, God's and the saint's glory, the saint's eternal home, the saint's happiness, AND God's very nature are all temporary too! If the Annihilationist doesn't believe in the necessary conclusion of their interpretation, then they need to repent and abandon the false doctrine of Annihilationism. If they fail to abandon Annihilationism then; "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

In Matthew 25:46 the contrast is clear that there is a different quality of existence that is "endless" in both cases. Moreover, when this verse is read in its fuller context, including Matthew 25:41, speaking of the unbeliever in "eternal fire," a conscious state of torment and painful judgment is clearly understood. The "eternal fire" that unbelievers are cast into (Matt 25:41) is the same "eternal fire" the devil and his angels are cast into; where they are tormented "forever and ever" (Rev 20:10). Therefore, in context "eternal" must mean "forever and ever," "endless," "everlasting," or "eternity" (cf. 2 Thess 1:9). Hell is forever; it is an endless place of torment!

Second, God lives "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 1:18; 10:6; 15:7), and glory, which includes God's holy and just wrath against the wicked (Isa 5:16; Rom 9:22-23; cf. Rev 18:20; 19:2-3), is to be given to him "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 1:6; 4:9-10; 5:13; 7:12), and since the righteous in Christ shall reign with him "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 22:5), then the wicked surely will be tormented day and night "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 20:10; cf. Rev 14:11).

Third, "eternal life" means more than a mere "eternal existence." A rock has an existence, but it's not alive. Eternal life has a living beginning point; so does eternal damnation. John 3:36 states, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." Here as in other places "eternal life" is spoken of as a present possession (John 5:24; 6:54; 1 John 5:11, 13). As "eternal life" is a present (John 17:3) and future reality (Matt 25:46), so the unbeliever is under the living "wrath of God" now (John 3:36) and in the future (Matt 25:46). So, eternity has already begun and will never end. The wrath of God upon the unbeliever has already begun; they are "condemned already" (John 3:18)."

Source

For the annihilationist to have a consistent theology, if Annihilationism is fact as it was said in the first post, if a person after their sin debt is paid in full they simply "burn up"/ "disappear", "vanish", go into a state of non-existence, they would also have to have the same theology about those who are saved. In 1,000,000 years, or 100,000,000 years they too would have to cease to exist.

Therefore, for a strict consistent theology, to what end would it serve to to be saved to begin with. Either way, a person will cease to exist.

But ultimately, it will boil down to this again:

no matter what I say, your going to find fault with it.

Good-bye!

Unsubscribing.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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ClementofA

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Your problem:

If in the strictest sense, if "eternal punishment" does not mean that, then by the same token, applying the same rule, "eternal life" does not mean what it says.

Which, like the rest of your post, is irrelevant to the point i made (so i'm not going to bother responding to it here), & is addressed at the url below:

If annihilationism is in fact, a fact, there is really no motivation to be saved.

Nonsense. One motivation is to be with God & live forever. A second motivation is not to be non existent forever. A third motivation is to not suffer torments for X number of years. I previously gave you an example of trillions of millenniums of torments (which you brushed aside as if nothing).

Furthermore, only a fool would choose to ignore all those motivations (listed above) in order to do what they want for the rest of their brief life, which could be over at any moment, & is at most several decades, knowing that they could have avoided the above stated torments & have enjoyed life for all eternity. Yes, foolish in the extreme.

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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Denadii

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To add to what you submitted, there is the following perspective to take into consideration as well.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


This indicates eating of the tree of life gives one the ability to live forever.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


I would think the overcomers are meaning the saved. This verse indicates that Jesus will give the saved to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


This verse indicates what is being meant by the midst of the paradise of God in Revelation 2:7. It's meaning in the new Jerusalem.

I'm pretty positive that those that get cast into the lake of fire, that they won't have access to the tree of life. What then is the source of their eternal life in the lake of fire, assuming eternal conscience torment were the correct position? After all, one can't burn forever consciously without first having the ability to live forever.
You are reading that sooooo wrong! No such thing as Annihilationism
 
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DavidPT

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You are reading that sooooo wrong! No such thing as Annihilationism

I haven't been to this thread for some time. Can you remind me where it has been undeniably proven in this thread that there is no such thing as Annihilationism?


You also indicate that I'm reading that sooooo wrong! Until you first show me how I was, why should I just take your word for it?
 
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Denadii

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I haven't been to this thread for some time. Can you remind me where it has been undeniably proven in this thread that there is no such thing as Annihilationism?


You also indicate that I'm reading that sooooo wrong! Until you first show me how I was, why should I just take your word for it?
OK David I started making you a list of your mistakes, but they are ALL based on one fact....I'll concentrate on that....God is lOVE. He is LIFE. Separate yourself from HIM and you've separated yourself from LOVE and LIFE. What do you have left? Your spirit cannot die but it has ALL the symptoms of death..Darkness, emptiness, etc...Plus....Those demons that share the place you are hate you and spend their time making you suffer. For eternity....You exist! But you have only pain and darkness....I would call that destroyed....On the other hand...God did not do that to you....You did it.
 
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Der Alte

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I haven't been to this thread for some time. Can you remind me where it has been undeniably proven in this thread that there is no such thing as Annihilationism?
You also indicate that I'm reading that sooooo wrong! Until you first show me how I was, why should I just take your word for it?
Where has it been undeniably proven in this thread, or any other thread, that there is such a thing as Annihilationism?
Matthew 25:41
(41) "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46
(46) "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
How did a native Greek speaking early church father understand "eternal punishment?"
Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’
 
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ClementofA

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Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’

Is that relevant? You said "Irrelevant not scripture":

Irrelevant not scripture.

Then are also all your quotes re Jewish beliefs & opinions irrelevant? And your quotes of church fathers? And opinions of lexicons? And BDAG references to non scriptural usages of aionios? So you won't be quoting any of these ever again, since they are, as you say, "Irrelevant not scripture"?

You also said:

Are any of these "inspired?"


Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
 
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Der Alte

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Is that relevant? You said "Irrelevant not scripture":
Then are also all your quotes re Jewish beliefs & opinions irrelevant? And your quotes of church fathers? And opinions of lexicons? And BDAG references to non scriptural usages of aionios? So you won't be quoting any of these ever again, since they are, as you say, "Irrelevant not scripture"?
You also said:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Quite some brazen nerve, challenge my sources while you copy/paste the same meaningless quotes from the same unqualified websites over and over. As if somehow by endless repetition they can somehow be made relevant.
 
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DeaconDean

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Nonsense. One motivation is to be with God & live forever. A second motivation is not to be non existent forever. A third motivation is to not suffer torments for X number of years.

Bull.

If eternal does not mean eternal, then "eternal punishment" is not a motive to be saved.

If eternal does not mean eternal, then "eternal life" does not mean eternal life.

If the doomed will escape by disappearing into nothingness, the same logic must be applied to those who are saved. Sooner or later eternal life will end.

And like I said, if I am sentenced to the lake of fire, and know I will sooner or later "disappear" or slip into "non-existence", what would I be missing? Nothing!

But have it your way.

I am sick and tired of debating with you.

Unsubscribing.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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ClementofA

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And like I said, if I am sentenced to the lake of fire, and know I will sooner or later "disappear" or slip into "non-existence", what would I be missing? Nothing!

Once again your comments, including that above, are irrelevant to the point being made, which you have failed to address:

If annihilationism is in fact, a fact, there is really no motivation to be saved.

Nonsense. One motivation is to be with God & live forever. A second motivation is not to be non existent forever. A third motivation is to not suffer torments for X number of years. I previously gave you an example of trillions of millenniums of torments (which you brushed aside as if nothing).

Furthermore, only a fool would choose to ignore all those motivations (listed above) in order to do what they want for the rest of their brief life, which could be over at any moment, & is at most several decades, knowing that they could have avoided the above stated torments & have enjoyed life for all eternity. Yes, foolish in the extreme.

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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