Hostility between LDS and mainstream Christians

[He is the way]

Hello dear Mormon friend. Well I can tell by the way you wrote consubstantial you don't understand the terms usage. Sub-stance= under-stand= stand-under. It's a more real structure that everything we can detect with our senses depends on to exist. It goes, and everything we are able to observe goes with it. The Trinity is three divine persons one in being. For God, that is consubstantial that is essence and the nature of God. That is not the case for created beings. Uncreated creator, have always been (eternal nature exclusive to God). Only God can say "I have always been". These are, in as much as we can know, the one substance that all three divine persons are. This isn't the Trinity of the Mormon faith. The creator of all that is, that can say " I have always been" for Mormons, has not been resolved by their theologians. One of whom I was able to have an honest exchange of ideas.. Mormon Trinitarian theology is an infinite regress that Mormon theologians haven't resolved.

That unresolved theology is at the core of what bothers me when Mormons discuss the Trinity as the same Trinity I believe in. Same words but not of the same substance at all. The Mormon Trinity of beings are not one in being and can't be one being any more than two humans can be, theologically speaking.
Having one will among three persons requires some kind of.....yeah I'll say it, ontological oneness. A unified will theologically requires a oneness that Mormon theology hasn't posited. So, theologically we can't really talk about Jesus as if we are talking about the same person. Theologically they are two persons with names that sound the same.

Thank you Eloy. I don't believe that any two people have the same exact understanding of God. We don't live long enough to know God completely nor are the scriptures able to describe God completely. It is important for us to diligently seek God. The Bible states that we should do God's will and keep God's commandments. By keeping the commandments we can know God better:
(New Testament | 1 John 2:4 - 6)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[Jane_Doe]

@Eloy Craft, thank you for your respectful and reasonable response. It is much appreciated. I do have some follow up questions about your views (if you don't mind)--

Hello dear Mormon friend. Well I can tell by the way you wrote consubstantial you don't understand the terms usage. Sub-stance= under-stand= stand-under. It's a more real structure that everything we can detect with our senses depends on to exist. It goes, and everything we are able to observe goes with it. The Trinity is three divine persons one in being. For God, that is consubstantial that is essence and the nature of God. That is not the case for created beings. Uncreated creator, have always been (eternal nature exclusive to God). Only God can say "I have always been". These are, in as much as we can know, the one substance that all three divine persons are.

(This question is not the best worded.... my apologies, I hope you understand what I'm asking)
Your talking about God here also including talk about man. Is that necessity? Or, in other words, is God defined by contrasting to man?

This isn't the Trinity of the Mormon faith. The creator of all that is, that can say " I have always been" for Mormons, has not been resolved by their theologians. One of whom I was able to have an honest exchange of ideas.. Mormon Trinitarian theology is an infinite regress that Mormon theologians haven't resolved.

Your gist is correct here. An epistemological note here though: LDS theology isn't decided by theologians, rather received via revelation (speaking from the LDS perspective). It is a fundamental tenet of LDS beliefs that God has many great things He hasn't revealed. It's a very different approach than Creedal Christianity.

That unresolved theology is at the core of what bothers me when Mormons discuss the Trinity as the same Trinity I believe in. Same words but not of the same substance at all. The Mormon Trinity of beings are not one in being and can't be one being any more than two humans can be, theologically speaking.
Having one will among three persons requires some kind of.....yeah I'll say it, ontological oneness. A unified will theologically requires a oneness that Mormon theology hasn't posited. So, theologically we can't really talk about Jesus as if we are talking about the same person. Theologically they are two persons with names that sound the same.

Thank you for sharing your perspective here. From my own view, I find Creedal Trinitarianism views to be incredibly confusing, despite studying it for many years. I just... with all due respect the discussions all seem to eventually come down to me being told something along the lines of "it's a mystery, it's not supposed to be understood- just accept it" or reaching beyond scripture's words.

Still, despite this confusion on both parties here, I'm happy to celebrate love of Christ with other Christians as brothers/sisters. I love visiting other churches- like last Easter was spent at an Evangelical church. That's actually why I joined CF in the first place: to celebrate Christ and have respectful interfaith dialogue.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I don't see the point of this thread. Mormons have their beliefs; we have ours.

Since Mormons rely on a number of 19th century writings (Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, etc.) that Christians do not accept, debate seems to me pretty much fruitless.

I 100% agree that bashing and trying to "debate" anyone is completely fruitless. We're all adults here, whom are intelligent and studied things out with what ever resources (scripture/Creeds/Reformer Writings/Catholic Tradition/LDS writing/etc). Everyone has their own perspective and no one is going to be converted via an internet forum-- in fact poor behavior often causes resentment of other groups. What does witnessing/converting is the Spirit, not any man.

For me, the purpose of a forum is not to try to "debate" or prove anything. Leave that to the Spirit. What we humans can do is to strive to better understand and love each other, and better express that love. And forums can indeed be used for that purpose.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What does saved mean to you? If it means being resurrected the answer is no.

No - saved does not mean resurrected.

Now - again - my question was:

"Does keeping His commandments in order to to be saved include temple rituals and tithing?"

Please tell me what saved means to you and please answer the question.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I 100% agree that bashing and trying to "debate" anyone is completely fruitless. We're all adults here, whom are intelligent and studied things out with what ever resources (scripture/Creeds/Reformer Writings/Catholic Tradition/LDS writing/etc). Everyone has their own perspective and no one is going to be converted via an internet forum-- in fact poor behavior often causes resentment of other groups. What does witnessing/converting is the Spirit, not any man.

For me, the purpose of a forum is not to try to "debate" or prove anything. Leave that to the Spirit. What we humans can do is to strive to better understand and love each other, and better express that love. And forums can indeed be used for that purpose.

I'll disagree. The Spirit can and has worked through CF to convert some out of mormon theology and into the light of Christ.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The Father, Son, and Spirit are three different and distinct persons. But they are all ONE God together, because they all have the ONE perfect love, will, grace, mercy, justice, etc.

Do they also share the other attributes and activities?

For instance - are all three persons eternal?

Are they both married to the same person?

Both having perfect love, will, grace, mercy and justice do not make them the same God.

I.e. they are not both the one God because they share those things. They are both the one God because they share eternal existence.

Eternality is, of course, the key to this.

But then I'm pretty sure you know that.

 

[He is the way]

“Jesus perfected his life and became our Christ. Priceless blood of a god was shed, and he became our Savior; his perfected life was given, and he became our Redeemer; his atonement for us made possible our return to our Heavenly Father, and yet how thoughtless, how unappreciative are most beneficiaries! Ingratitude is a sin of the ages.”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball, 2006.

See Chapter 1, page 6 at this link:
https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36500_eng.pdf?lang=eng

"Jesus kept the commandments of his Father and thereby worked out his own salvation and also set an example as to the way and the means whereby all men may be saved."
Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol.4, p.434

“The statement of our Lord that he could do nothing but what he had seen the Father do, means simply that it had been revealed to him what his Father had done. Without doubt, Jesus came into the world subject to the same condition as was required of each of us-he forgot everything, and he had to grow from grace to grace. His forgetting, or having his former knowledge taken away, would be requisite just as it is in the case of each of us, to complete the present temporal existence.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:32

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “I believe firmly that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. He taught this doctrine to his disciples. He did not teach them that he was the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of the Father. Truly, all things are done by the power of the Holy Ghost. It was through this power that Jesus was brought into this world, but not as the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of God. Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit, which is subject unto him, but his Father is greater than he! He has said it. Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18).
Book of Mormon Student Manual, 1989, Alma 7:10, p.74

God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).
“God the Father,” True to the Faith (2004)
God the Father

If you think there is anything wrong with this perhaps you should remember these scriptures:
(New Testament | John 14:28)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
(New Testament | John 15:26)

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

 

[dzheremi]

Once again, the surface-level reading of the Mormon religion obscures their ability to understand the scriptures. Our friend He is the Way ought to remember the immediate temporal context (just before the crucifixion) and the audience to which Christ our Lord spoke in saying those things, as the fathers certainly did:

You have heard how I said to you, I go away, and come again unto you. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I go unto the Father; for My Father is greater than I.

And what joy would this bring to them? What consolation? What then mean the words? They did not yet know concerning the Resurrection, nor had they right opinion concerning Him; (for how could they, who did not even know that He would rise again?) but they thought that the Father was mighty. He says then, that If you are fearful for Me, as not able to defend Myself, and if you are not confident that I shall see you again after the Crucifixion, yet when you heard that I go to the Father, you ought then to have rejoiced because I go away to One that is greater, and able to undo all dangers. You have heard how I said to you. Why has He put this? Because, He says, I am so firmly confident about the things which come to pass, that I even foretell them, so far am I from fearing. This also is the meaning of what follows.​

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 75 on the Gospel of John

 

[Rescued One]

If you think there is anything wrong with this perhaps you should remember these scriptures:
(New Testament | John 14:28)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Philippians 2 NIV
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

2 Corinthians 8 NIV
9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

John 17 NIV
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


Then you have the Mormon dilemma:

Doctrine and Covenants 88
107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

 

[Rescued One]

Because both claim to be the one *true Church* and both are mistaken.

Other churches make the same claim; many are just smaller in number that those two.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Do they also share the other attributes and activities?

For instance - are all three persons eternal?

All three are eternal, yes.

Both having perfect love, will, grace, mercy and justice do not make them the same God.

Can you follow the will of the Son and not be following the will of the Father?
Can you honor the Father and no honor the Son?

 

[Eloy Craft]

All three are eternal, yes.

Just to be clear. There are two kinds of eternal reality. Only God has 'always been, is now, and always will be'. Every other eternal being is 'now and will always be.' A distinction that makes the two a 'kind' yet far apart.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Hey I'm going to suggest that to the Bishop

I find nothing "symbolic" about the use of Oreos as Jesus' body and milk as his blood. But, as you indicate here and other lds have told me previously, they seem to be acceptable elements. I find that highly disrespectful to the words of Jesus to "do this in remembrance of me".

 

[Rescued One]

Do they also share the other attributes and activities?

For instance - are all three persons eternal?

Everyone, all of us are eternal per Mormonism.

 

[Rescued One]

Jesus has always been God, however He had a body like ours.

"Jesus kept the commandments of his Father and thereby worked out his own salvation, and also set an example as to the way and the means whereby all men may be saved."
Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 4:34

"Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws."
Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p.51

"Christ the Word, the Firstborn, had of course attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in pre-existence."
Bruce R. McConkie, What Mormons Think of Christ, p.36

 

[mmksparbud]

Jesus has a spiritual resurrected body of flesh and bone. It is not what I would call a human body like the ones we have now. Jesus has always been God, however He had a body like ours. The Bible is not clear whether the Father also has a spiritual resurrected body. In fact the Bible is not clear about many things nor do we need to understand those things completely to enter into God's kingdom. We do need to be as little children to enter His kingdom:

(New Testament | Mark 10:14 - 15)

14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Yes--It is a human gloried body--as we will have when we sre resurrected. He never had a body like ours before the incarnation--did you not read the scriptures that state He as made lower than the angels in order to come to us??
Psa_8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Heb_2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

 

[Marvin Knox]

All three are eternal, yes.

Eternally God? Or did one or all "become" God?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Eternally God? Or did one or all "become" God?

The person that is the Father has always existed.
The person that is the Son has always existed.
The person that is the Spirit has always existed.

All of them are 100% eternal.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Just to be clear. There are two kinds of eternal reality. Only God has 'always been, is now, and always will be'. Every other eternal being is 'now and will always be.' A distinction that makes the two a 'kind' yet far apart.

Which bring things back to my previous question:

(This question is not the best worded.... my apologies, I hope you understand what I'm asking)
Your talking about God here also including talk about man. Is that necessity? Or, in other words, is God defined by contrasting to man?

 

[He is the way]

Philippians 2 NIV
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

2 Corinthians 8 NIV
9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

John 17 NIV
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


Then you have the Mormon dilemma:

Doctrine and Covenants 88
107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

(New Testament | Romans 8:16 - 18)

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
(New Testament | Philippians 3:14 - 15)

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.