Election and evangelism

[Oloyedelove]

Being justified, aka made righteous, is different from the process thereafter, sometimes called sanctification. We are guilty before God, who is our judge, but through Christ the verdict is “not guilty”. That is one moment that happens when we give pur lives to Christ.
Galatians was written by Paul. In fact, he addressed a very similar issue in Romans 6:1-2.
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”
Do you think he’d contradict himself?
He is addressing the main argument against being saved by faith, namely that if we are saved by grace, why not continue sinning. The situation described in Galatians is about the Jews going further and saying that if his identification with Christ led him into sin, then Christ was the cause of his sin.
This would be true, but Paul already gave an answer that shatters this statement in Romans 6:1-2.
It was said in the OT that the Christ would come and free the prisoners, among other things (Isiah 42:7). Such is the case that by professing our faith in Christ and dying to sin, we are no longer under the power of our slavemaster, which is our sin, but through Christ have the power to resist.
Being made righteous does not mean being holy. Upon receiving Christ and dying to sin through his crucifiction start the Christians life, which is marked by the conflict of the soul that is made righteous against the sinful flesh. THAT is the process that lasts a lifetime. But only by putting our faith in Christ can we get started in the first place.
Saying that being saved is the result of a lifetime of work is to ignore a good chunk of the NT and devalues the free gift of salvation. Or are you saying that Christ’s death for our sins was imperfect and requires some help from us?

Now if after receiving ability to overcome sin some so called believers still think they could continuously live in sin and still be saved, what becomes the state of such?
Are they going to save or not?
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Can u kindly explain the statement be not deceived. Go through the books of Paul and check the places he uses the statement BE NOT DECEIVED and check he means by those words. Then u will discover that in each of the verses he used that phrase he is always talking about living a sinful life and somebody deceiving the believer he would still be saved when Christ comes.

 

[frater_domus]

@Erik Nelson Act 13:48 states that those that were predestined to eternal life believed. Thus, you must be elect to believe and not the other way around.
John 10:26-27 says that those that were not part of the flock did not believe, not the other way around.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we have been saved by grace and not our own doing.
The conclusion I draw is that we should all be justly punished and go to hell. However, because He is loving, He predestined, by grace, the elect to be saved. Not by any merit or doing, but by His perfect will alone, which is unknown to us in this regard. But we are also commanded to evangelize, so that the elect may hear the gospel and believe in it, as seen in Acts 13:48.

@DeaconDean You said that the elect are chosen on basis of forseen faith. However, the verses I mentioned above suggest that faith is the result of election, not vice versa. Thus it is unconditional election, by His perfect will alone.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The concept of only those who are elected get saved is a false doctrine. No way a loving God or a loving anyone would pick some for heaven and others for hell.

The scripture that speaks of people being predestined to become like Jesus is proof of eternal security. That once a person gets saved God has predestined for them to remain saved and become like Jesus.

Be Blessed.

please read my previous posts...

I offer that chosen-ness / election is, in fact, limited... to those who hear & heed the call to Christ... and then are also suitably grateful & appreciative of the Divine honor such represents...

However, all mankind is drawn / called / invited to Christ (John 12:32, Matt 22)...

Scripture does not appear to say, that God "chooses some to damnation". Rather, quite the opposite!

God invites everybody to Christ (Matt 22), drawing all men thereunto (John 12:32)... However, there are certain minimum requirements for gratitude & appropriate behavior (Matt 22)... such that whilst "many are invited / called", somewhat "few[er] are chosen / elected".

Still, God does know beforehand who will choose Him, who will capitalize on God's Grace to acknowledge Jesus Christ and be Saved (1 Pet 1:2)... God does not have difficulty analyzing human psychologies and accurately predicting who will do what... humans don't surprise God or anything

 

[frater_domus]

Now if after receiving ability to overcome sin some so called believers still think they could continuously live in sin and still be saved, what becomes the state of such?
Are they going to save or not?
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Can u kindly explain the statement be not deceived. Go through the books of Paul and check the places he uses the statement BE NOT DECEIVED and check he means by those words. Then u will discover that in each of the verses he used that phrase he is always talking about living a sinful life and somebody deceiving the believer he would still be saved when Christ comes.

I posted it above as a reply on page 4. To recap it, if you continue to live in sin, because either of hardness of heart or not caring, that suggests you never had saving faith to begin with. Again, I suggest going back and reading the reply

As for the second part, so you are saying that a believer who has been deceived will still be saved? I do not get that from those passages. Mind going into more detail here. I can not follow, right now.
However, if what you said is true, then it does not contradict that we are saved by faith alone and supports the passages about that says that our fruits of the spirit, after being saved, influence our rewarss in heaven.
But as I said, please go into more detail, as I have trouble following.

 

[Erik Nelson]

@Erik Nelson Act 13:48 states that those that were predestined to eternal life believed. Thus, you must be elect to believe and not the other way around.
John 10:26-27 says that those that were not part of the flock did not believe, not the other way around.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we have been saved by grace and not our own doing.
The conclusion I draw is that we should all be justly punished and go to hell. However, because He is loving, He predestined, by grace, the elect to be saved. Not by any merit or doing, but by His perfect will alone, which is unknown to us in this regard. But we are also commanded to evangelize, so that the elect may hear the gospel and believe in it, as seen in Acts 13:48.

@DeaconDean You said that the elect are chosen on basis of forseen faith. However, the verses I mentioned above suggest that faith is the result of election, not vice versa. Thus it is unconditional election, by His perfect will alone.

Well, those first verses surely show correlation, which could fall under @DeaconDean 's phrase "foreseen faith".

Regarding "Grace" and Ephesians 2:8-9, I think there's an extra step in the process...

According to the free gift of unmerited Grace, all humanity is "invited / chosen" to join Christ (Matt 22), all humanity is drawn unto him (John 12:32).

However, that's necessary but not sufficient. There are still certain minimum requirements for proper behavior and attire (Matt 22). Many many are "called / invited", but "few[er] are "chosen / elected" (Matt 22:14).

Humans don't surprise God. God can tell in advance who will do what and choose Him. Faith is foreseen / forecasted / predicted (1 Pet 1:2).

I think you could still make a case for "foreseen faith"

 

[Erik Nelson]

I posted it above as a reply on page 4. To recap it, if you continue to live in sin, because either of hardness of heart or not caring, that suggests you never had saving faith to begin with. Again, I suggest going back and reading the reply

As for the second part, so you are saying that a believer who has been deceived will still be saved? I do not get that from those passages. Mind going into more detail here. I can not follow, right now.
However, if what you said is true, then it does not contradict that we are saved by faith alone and supports the passages about that says that our fruits of the spirit, after being saved, influence our rewarss in heaven.
But as I said, please go into more detail, as I have trouble following.

Rom 10:10, we are justified / made righteous by faith alone... we are saved by professing that faith to others = evangelizing

 

[frater_domus]

Well, those first verses surely show correlation, which could fall under @DeaconDean 's phrase "foreseen faith".

Regarding "Grace" and Ephesians 2:8-9, I think there's an extra step in the process...

According to the free gift of unmerited Grace, all humanity is "invited / chosen" to join Christ (Matt 22), all humanity is drawn unto him (John 12:32).

However, that's necessary but not sufficient. There are still certain minimum requirements for proper behavior and attire (Matt 22). Many many are "called / invited", but "few[er] are "chosen / elected" (Matt 22:14).

Humans don't surprise God. God can tell in advance who will do what and choose Him. Faith is foreseen / forecasted / predicted (1 Pet 1:2).

I think you could still make a case for "foreseen faith"

My head hurts...

I feel that make argument will cause us to go around in circles. In response to that, I would’ve replied something I already did. I need to take a step back and pray about it.

But another question comes to mind then. If I have heard and believed, then no matter how or why election took place, I could see myself as one of them. Why would it all matter then? What use would I gain from knowing whether there is predestination and how it works if it is true doctrine? Wouldn’t it be better to worry about God’s will and execute it? Or are those the words of someone too lazy for theology?

 

[Erik Nelson]

[Staff edit].

Everybody agrees that God will, ultimately, sort humanity into "sheep vs. goats", yes? God will save some vs. damn others. The sorting hinges upon belief / faith in Jesus Christ + active evangelistic profession of that faith (Rom 10:10). What is the issue so far?

Humans don't surprise God. God knows what people will do in advance. God doesn't say, "oh, wow, wasn't expecting that... but, alright then, nice pleasant surprise from X, move them over into the Book of Life... oh, wow, what the heck, thought for sure Y would make it, total surprise, out the blue, out of left field, never saw that one coming... oh well, have to erase them from the Book of Life"...

The Book of Life isn't full of erasures & smudges & crossed out entries and new entries squeezed into the margins, so to speak.

God will sort humans into saved vs. damned, never once having been surprised or "thrown for a loop" by any humans' actions. I don't understand the objections

 

[Erik Nelson]

My head hurts...

I feel that make argument will cause us to go around in circles. In response to that, I would’ve replied something I already did. I need to take a step back and pray about it.

But another question comes to mind then. If I have heard and believed, then no matter how or why election took place, I could see myself as one of them. Why would it all matter then? What use would I gain from knowing whether there is predestination and how it works if it is true doctrine? Wouldn’t it be better to worry about God’s will and execute it? Or are those the words of someone too lazy for theology?

gr8 question!

please consider this cxn... trust in God's foreknowledge of you... and of every other true (and active) believer (and evangelizer, Rom 10:10)... and of every other sinner...

is required for you to trust God's foreknowledge of the whole of human history, as revealed in Revelations...

It is only because God in heaven can 100.000...% accurately predict every single terrestrial human's actions... that God can then add those all up, and accurately predict human history, over thousands of years, from the Revelation of the Apocalypse to John in the 1st century AD... through today... to Doomsday at the end of earth time.

If you believe that God in heaven can accurately predict the aggregate behavior, of the whole entire human species, from the 1st century AD to the end of earth time...

then you are already presupposing that God can accurately predict the individual behavior, of each member of that species...

foreknowledge of foreseen faith & foreseen faithlessness is assumed for the book of Revelations (and Daniel, et al)

It's because God can accurately predict each human, individually, that God can accurately predict the whole sweep of human history, species wide

 

[RDKirk]

Could someone please expain how unconditional election and evangelism fit together? Is it the case that of all those that hear the gospel, only the elect would react to it and follow Christ as a result?

First: Because Jesus told us to evangelize. That's all.

If Jesus told you to step out of the boat onto the water, are you going to insist that He first explain exactly how He's going to change physics to make it possible?

Follow His instructions. Get out of the boat.

Second:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them -- John 6

 

[Erik Nelson]

[Staff edit].

Rom 4:2 = Rom 10:10 = justification by belief / faith

yes, once cannot "buy their way" into the Kingdom of heaven, as by works...

but everyone in the Kingdom did "believe their way" in...

---

I don't see how God's august supreme Authority is diminished, by God deigning, according to God's own Divine Will, for God's own Divine Plans, to choose to elect some humans based on their choices

Doesn't the fact remain, that Christians, following in the spiritual footsteps of Abraham, are accounted justified & righteous... because of the psychological act of acknowledging & trusting & believing God?

 

[RDKirk]

Election should never be tied up with evangelism. Election is intended as a source of encouragement for Christians in the New Testament. It's not Paul's focus as it relates to those outside Christ.

I think a lot of Calvinists do make much more of election than Paul intended.

Yes, it would have been a source of encouragement for early Christians.

We tend to forget that Paul was not preaching to people who were a religious blank slate. They were exceedingly religious (or superstitious) people who had a fully developed set of beliefs about the nature of gods.

Their gods were faithless, fickle, whimsical. One might be in the favor of a god one day and under his wrath the next. Or he may be under the wrath of one god and favored by another. Their beliefs were a constant juggling act of trying to get into the favor of a god for this, and then a god for that.

The most important point of election for people coming out of that kind of belief is that God is not fickle. It was important for them to understand that they were part of His plan before creation, that they were not constantly walking a knife edge between favor and wrath with God, and eating six pomegranate seeds was not going to consign them to six months of hell every year.

It was also important for them to know that their evangelism would not be in vain--that if they preached "Jesus and Him crucified" where the Holy Spirit directed, there would be people prepared to receive it.

 

[Erik Nelson]

[Staff edit].

Gal 3:22-26 = "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus"

That "psychological act" of believing & having trusting faith ushers you into Christendom, as a spiritual descendant of Abraham, even as Abraham was justified & found righteous by his psychological act of trusting faith & belief in God

 

[frater_domus]

gr8 question!

please consider this cxn... trust in God's foreknowledge of you... and of every other true (and active) believer (and evangelizer, Rom 10:10)... and of every other sinner...

is required for you to trust God's foreknowledge of the whole of human history, as revealed in Revelations...

It is only because God in heaven can 100.000...% accurately predict every single terrestrial human's actions... that God can then add those all up, and accurately predict human history, over thousands of years, from the Revelation of the Apocalypse to John in the 1st century AD... through today... to Doomsday at the end of earth time.

If you believe that God in heaven can accurately predict the aggregate behavior, of the whole entire human species, from the 1st century AD to the end of earth time...

then you are already presupposing that God can accurately predict the individual behavior, of each member of that species...

foreknowledge of foreseen faith & foreseen faithlessness is assumed for the book of Revelations (and Daniel, et al)

It's because God can accurately predict each human, individually, that God can accurately predict the whole sweep of human history, species wide

Well, I guess if nothing else, it teaches us humility before God, trust in Him and gives us hope

 

[Erik Nelson]

[Staff edit].

what about the Centurion of Luke 7 ? He had more faith than all in Israel ?

So does not Scripture depict a spectrum of faith, from very tentative (Mark 9) to almost blind flat-out acceptance (Luke 7) ? Perhaps even as if some need more "enabling regeneration" whilst others do not require quite so much ?

 

[RDKirk]

My question is how the spreading of the gospel, aka evangelism, fits into that. We are told to do it, so it can not be pointless. But if those that would believe are already chosen, what is the point of spreading the gospel? So that the elect can hear and believe it?

"Membership has its privileges," as American Express used to say.

I like the story of Emeth in CS Lewis' final story of The Chronicles of Narnia, "The Last Battle."

Emeth is an officer of the Calormen, a nation that had been in opposition to the people of Aslan's Narnia for centuries. Emeth has been taught all his life to worship the god Taz and to hate Aslan. He has been taught that Taz is wise, loving, and gracious, and that Aslan is hateful and vicious.

But then when he is told to do evil in the name of Taz, he rejects it. That's not the Taz he believes in. Because of that rejection, the followers of Taz cast him into prison.

Part of the reason for the Body of Christ is to provide asylum and haven for those who the Father has enabled and thus no longer have comfort in their former beliefs. Their lives become meaningless and unfruitful to them. Many, discerning in nature the existence and virtue of God, may begin to act "as though under the law," and against the ways of their former life styles. They become spiritual wanders.

Until they hear the gospel and find their home.

 

[Erik Nelson]

[Staff edit].

Per Romans 10:10, the centurion's faith was "justifying"... yet only the centurion turning around and professing his faith & evangelizing, preaching the Gospel and telling others of the miracle would have been "saving"

Salvation derives from professing one's faith, which I equate with evangelizing

 

[Ron Gurley]

Calvinist doctrine of the "elect" is false.

elect...Greek 1588...eklektos...
A.chosen by God,
i.to obtain salvation through Christ
a.Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
ii.the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
iii.choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

Matthew 24:31
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Evangelism stems from Matthew 28...the Great Commisssion.

Matthew 28:18-20 (NASB)
"Go therefore,
making disciples of all the nations
baptizing (disciples) them
in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
teaching them to observe all that I COMMAND YOU.
And lo, I am with YOU always even to the end of the age."

Notice the ORDER:
1. GO...send out missionaries
2. MAKE DISCIPLES...use the gospel for conversion and help spiritual growth...not just for NATION Israel
3. BAPTIZE...symbolically wash away sins as a sign of conversion
4. TEACH...all the words and deeds, examples and precepts of Jesus the God-Man
5. I'll spiritually HELP my followers

 

[Ron Gurley]

In Christianity, Evangelism is the commitment to or act of publicly preaching of the Gospel with the intention of spreading the message and teachings of Jesus Christ. Christians who specialize in evangelism are often known as evangelists, whether they are in their home communities or living as missionaries in the field, although some Christian traditions refer to such people as missionaries in either case. Some Christian traditions consider evangelists to be in a leadership position; they may be found preaching to large meetings or in governance roles.

Evangelism - Wikipedia