7th Trumpet Rapture?

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Lots of holes in your logic...........as usual.

You say that 1 thes 4:16 is talking about the same thing as 1 Cor 15:52

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then you turn around and say that the last trump is the seventh trumpet blown by an angel. How can the last trump be blown by an angel when you compare it to the trump of God which is the voice of God.

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the 7th trump blown by an angel.

As usual your logic falls apart.
What.......no copy and paste response BABEREAN2
 
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BABerean2

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The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the 7th trump blown by an angel.

Do you think a trumpet blown by a man on the Feast of Trumpets is the trump of God, when neither 1 Corinthians chapter 15, nor the Book of Revelation contain a reference to that feast.

The feasts were but a shadow of Christ.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.



And you think my logic is bad...

Why don't you admit that you are trying to make the pretrib doctrine work?



PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

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BABerean2

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God said Israel would be at the head of the nations

Jesus Christ will be at the head of nations.

It will not be a nation of people, based on their genealogy, or geographic location.

Once again, your Two Peoples of God doctrine takes the emphasis off of the Son of God.


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jerry kelso

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Jesus Christ will be at the head of nations.

It will not be a nation of people, based on their genealogy, or geographic location.

Once again, your Two Peoples of God doctrine takes the emphasis off of the Son of God.


.

baberean2,

1. That is not a true statement for it is only by God’s choice to place them in that position. He is just waiting for them to believe in him as their Messiah which is the condition.
God has promised a promise he will keep.

2. Your position is the church has replaced the Jewish nation in the KoH and that makes God out to be a liar. It also exalts the church above Israel by saying God is unfair in his sovereign choice to put Israel into the position of the head at nations.
It creates the spiritual Jew theory which is not a scriptural doctrine. It is a replacement theology doctrine.

3. I believe Christ will be the potentate of the whole earth for there is none above him.
That wasn’t the argument.

4. Your position is saying bringing Jew and Gentiles into one body was the ultimate goal then it makes no sense to allow an actual physical nation to have a particular position that is different than the church.

5. God will be the overall ruler of the whole earth but he will not rule alone.
Israel will have their rulership position and the church age saints will have theirs.
They both will be one in Christ under the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

6. The nature of the KoH reign will have both Old and New Covenant laws concerning the civil law for not everyone will be saved in the millennial kingdom.

7. The nature of the KoH reign will be Jewish regarding the feasts which are synonymous with the nation of Israel and are eternal.
Jerusalem is the capital of the nation of Israel and will be of the whole earth.
Colossians 2:16-17; Let no man judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an Holy day or of the new moon or of the sabbath days ( the church) Which are a shadow of things to come ( millennial kingdom)but the body of Christ (church).

8. Christ comes back to the Mt. of Olives to the battle of Armageddon and restores Israel where the law will come forth from the earthly Mt. Zion. which is in Israel.
Rulership positions God gives does not mean or cannot be equated to a two people of God doctrine that you accuse dispensationalists believing in.
I guess next you will be getting mad because someone else that you know will have what you think is higher than yours and you think you ought to have. You see how ridiculous that logic is.
Get over it and quit saying things that are not scriptural that you use to brow beat dispensationalists. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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It creates the spiritual Jew theory which is not a scriptural doctrine. It is a replacement theology doctrine.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

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jerry kelso

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Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

.

baberean2,

1. He is a Jew inwardly and they will be in the millennial kingdom at the head of the nations.

2. This context was directly to the Jews about how they would be judged by the law that they were under Romans 2:12

3. Romans 2:17; Paul is talking directly to the Jews of his day that were resting in the law and being hypocrites and the name of God was being blasphemed among the Gentiles because of them.
The law of Moses had already been abolished at Calvary.
Verse 25, Paul gives the example a life under the law had to keep the righteousness of the law. If one breaks the law then they are made uncircumcised.
V 26 if the uncircumcision kept the law then he shall be counted for circumcision.
The uncircumcised gentile who kept the law would have the right to judge the Jew who was transgressing the law.
Right is right and God is fair and not a respect or of persons v11.
This is why Paul said he is a Jew inwardly and circumcision was of the heart and not in the letter of the law.
Each age God would be fair to the one being obedient vs the one being disobedient.
So the spiritual Jew passage has nothing to do with the church being spiritual Jew that they replace the Nation of Israel’s Covenant promises concerning the KoH reign on earth.
You have built a false doctrine on a false assumption.

4. There is nothing wrong for the church to be called spiritual Jews because of Salvation for circumcision is of the heart and not the Mosaic Law.

5. The same principle in Ezekiel 18 when the Jews thought God was not fair because he would save the heathen gentile if they asked for forgiveness and wouldn’t save the sinning Jew that would not repent. God said he was fair because he has righteous judgement.
So your whole position is built on a wrong premise. You are wrong again and always will be because
you don’t understand correct context or how to reconcile scriptures together properly to harmonize either each other in the big picture.

6. Because you can’t debunk the truth of the scriptures you keep going to circular reasoning.
Give in to the truth for a change and you’ll be set free. Jerry Kelso
 
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jgr

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jerry,

1. All these verses are about salvation not the KoH reign about the land of Israel, Jerusalem the capital and Israel being the capital and head of the nations in the millennial kingdom.

There is nothing restricting these verses to salvation. "All the promises..." (2 Corinthians 1:20) and "Heir of all things..." (Hebrews 1:2) are all-encompassing.

They are still backslidden as a nation.

What you fail to understand whereas, the condition is obedience God chose physical Israel as a physical nation with physical land, a physical throne

What is the definition of nation if it is not about DNA?

God chose them to be in the position in the millennial kingdom because he promised and will not go against that promise!!!!!!!!!

His Son fulfilled His promises 2,000 years ago at Calvary. (Luke 24:25-27,44-45; Acts 13:29; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16; Hebrews 1:1,2)

Your understanding of fulfillment, which you interpret as unfulfillment, does not align with that of the New Testament because you are viewing through a lens of natural discernment, when spiritual discernment is required. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

God said Israel will be at the head of the nations and there is nothing anybody can do about it for God has promised which is unbreakable Romans 11:29;25-29

God's promises are unbreakable to those who believe. (Romans 11:23)

It creates the spiritual Jew theory which is not a scriptural doctrine. It is a replacement theology doctrine.

Both Jews in Romans 2:28,29 are spiritual Jews.

The outward Jew is basing his spirituality on outward circumcision of the flesh, and the praise of men.

The inward Jew is basing his spirituality on inward circumcision of the heart, and the praise of God.

Paul says that the outward Jew is not a Jew.

He then says that the inward Jew is a Jew.

Is that replacement theology?
 
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Do you think a trumpet blown by a man on the Feast of Trumpets is the trump of God, when neither 1 Corinthians chapter 15, nor the Book of Revelation contain a reference to that feast.


No, I do not think that a trumpet blown by a man on the Feast of Trumpets is the trump of God, so there goes that argument.

The trump of God or voice of God is sounded at the pretribulation rapture likely on Pentecost. It will be like the days of Noah when the church is raptured. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. The 12 tribes will go in this harvest....that the 144,000 will have witnessed to, who are also the first fruits of the harvest. It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.



The feasts were but a shadow of Christ.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
.


The Feasts are a shadow of things to come. Next will be the early summer harvest, the Feast of Pentecost, the pretribulation rapture.




And you think my logic is bad...

Why don't you admit that you are trying to make the pretrib doctrine work?

Yes, your logic is bad and is constantly proven as bad. As for me, my challenge is to keep you from constantly putting words in my mouth......like above. The best part is, I don't have to make the pretribulation rapture work. The scriptures takes care of that. There are two raptures......one pre trib and one pre wrath.
 
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BABerean2

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The best part is, I don't have to make the pretribulation rapture work. The scriptures takes care of that. There are two raptures......one pre trib and one pre wrath.

Since Christ will "descend" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and the words "we" and "sleep" in 1Thessalonians 5:10 connect chapter 5 to the event at the end of chapter 4, there is no trip back to heaven in the passage.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.


1Th 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.


You must import a trip to heaven from another passage to make your doctrine work.



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jerry kelso

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jerry,



There is nothing restricting these verses to salvation. "All the promises..." (2 Corinthians 1:20) and "Heir of all things..." (Hebrews 1:2) are all-encompassing.





What is the definition of nation if it is not about DNA?



His Son fulfilled His promises 2,000 years ago at Calvary. (Luke 24:25-27,44-45; Acts 13:29; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16; Hebrews 1:1,2)

Your understanding of fulfillment, which you interpret as unfulfillment, does not align with that of the New Testament because you are viewing through a lens of natural discernment, when spiritual discernment is required. (1 Corinthians 2:14)



God's promises are unbreakable to those who believe. (Romans 11:23)



Both Jews in Romans 2:28,29 are spiritual Jews.

The outward Jew is basing his spirituality on outward circumcision of the flesh, and the praise of men.

The inward Jew is basing his spirituality on inward circumcision of the heart, and the praise of God.

Paul says that the outward Jew is not a Jew.

He then says that the inward Jew is a Jew.

Is that replacement theology?

jgr,
Happy birthday blessings!

1. 2 Corinthians 1:20 is not talking about the KoH message.

2. Hebrews 1:2; the Son was appointed heir of all things. He is heir to the KoH and he will rule out of Zion which is in the land of Israel. This doesn’t dismiss the fact that Israel will not be at the head of the nations in the millennial kingdom.
Immediate context needs to be understood and you are generalizing.

3. 1 Corinthians 2:14 has no context about the KoH reign with Israel.
He is talking about salvation and the deep things of God and his wisdom of this world compared to God’s wisdom in a mystery which was about the crucified Lord.
The natural man and the spiritually discerned is talking about sinners and saints. Once again you don’t take correct context into consideration.

4. Definition of nation DNA? Well, you might as count the church because we are called a nation too 1 Peter 2:9 a chosen nation is Peter to Church age Jews.

5. An inward Jew has nothing to do with the KoH message of positions in the earthly kingdom.
An inward Jew has to do with salvation of man’s soul.

6. Replacement Theology has to do with the church taking Israel’s KoH position concerning the physical throne of David and the physical land of Israel, not salvation. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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jgr,
Happy birthday blessings!

1. 2 Corinthians 1:20 is not talking about the KoH message.

2. Hebrews 1:2; the Son was appointed heir of all things. He is heir to the KoH and he will rule out of Zion which is in the land of Israel. This doesn’t dismiss the fact that Israel will not be at the head of the nations in the millennial kingdom.
Immediate context needs to be understood and you are generalizing.

3. 1 Corinthians 2:14 has no context about the KoH reign with Israel.
He is talking about salvation and the deep things of God and his wisdom of this world compared to God’s wisdom in a mystery which was about the crucified Lord.
The natural man and the spiritually discerned is talking about sinners and saints. Once again you don’t take correct context into consideration.

4. Definition of nation DNA? Well, you might as count the church because we are called a nation too 1 Peter 2:9 a chosen nation is Peter to Church age Jews.

5. An inward Jew has nothing to do with the KoH message of positions in the earthly kingdom.
An inward Jew has to do with salvation of man’s soul.

6. Replacement Theology has to do with the church taking Israel’s KoH position concerning the physical throne of David and the physical land of Israel, not salvation. Jerry kelso



.
 
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jgr

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jgr,
Happy birthday blessings!

1. 2 Corinthians 1:20 is not talking about the KoH message.

2. Hebrews 1:2; the Son was appointed heir of all things. He is heir to the KoH and he will rule out of Zion which is in the land of Israel. This doesn’t dismiss the fact that Israel will not be at the head of the nations in the millennial kingdom.
Immediate context needs to be understood and you are generalizing.

3. 1 Corinthians 2:14 has no context about the KoH reign with Israel.
He is talking about salvation and the deep things of God and his wisdom of this world compared to God’s wisdom in a mystery which was about the crucified Lord.
The natural man and the spiritually discerned is talking about sinners and saints. Once again you don’t take correct context into consideration.

4. Definition of nation DNA? Well, you might as count the church because we are called a nation too 1 Peter 2:9 a chosen nation is Peter to Church age Jews.

5. An inward Jew has nothing to do with the KoH message of positions in the earthly kingdom.
An inward Jew has to do with salvation of man’s soul.

6. Replacement Theology has to do with the church taking Israel’s KoH position concerning the physical throne of David and the physical land of Israel, not salvation. Jerry kelso

Thanks for the birthday blessings, Jerry!

1. 2 Corinthians 1:20 is not talking about the KoH message.

"All the promises" means everything, including the KoH. It excludes nothing.

2. Hebrews 1:2; the Son was appointed heir of all things. He is heir to the KoH and he will rule out of Zion which is in the land of Israel. This doesn’t dismiss the fact that Israel will not be at the head of the nations in the millennial kingdom.
Immediate context needs to be understood and you are generalizing.

Hebrews 1:2 is the immediate context. It is reconfirmed in verse 3:
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

All of these verses exclude nothing. They include all. The context is all.

If these verses had used the word "some" instead of "all", you would certainly and correctly argue that they support your claims.

But they don't. It's not "some". It's "all".

Here's a lot more all:

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

Acts 13
29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

The natural man and the spiritually discerned is talking about sinners and saints. Once again you don’t take correct context into consideration.

I agree that it's talking about sinners and saints, so I used the figure of viewing through a lens. Believers are not immune to the occasional failings of natural man, and they're not immune to the occasional perspectives of natural man.

4. Definition of nation DNA? Well, you might as count the church because we are called a nation too 1 Peter 2:9 a chosen nation is Peter to Church age Jews.

The Church is a spiritual nation distinguished by faith and obedience. What distinguishes the physical nation of Israel to which you refer?

5. An inward Jew has nothing to do with the KoH message of positions in the earthly kingdom.
An inward Jew has to do with salvation of man’s soul.

Spiritually, the inward Jew is a Jew; the outward Jew is not; and the inward Jew is the only Jew who will experience any kingdom blessings, as he is the only one who is circumsized in heart, and whose praise is of God.
 
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keras

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6. Replacement Theology has to do with the church taking Israel’s KoH position concerning the physical throne of David and the physical land of Israel, not salvation. Jerry kelso
Exactly what Jesus said: The Kingdom of God will be taken away for you, [Jewish people] and given to a nation that yields the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
Who yields proper fruit? Faithful Christians, that's who. People from every race, nation and language, who evangelize and do the works of Jesus. Matthew 28:19

Let us hear no more nonsense about any 'replacement'. That was done by the Jews in Jesus' time, as they declared themselves unworthy of their status as the chosen people. Matthew 27:25, Acts 13:46
We Christians; Jews and from every ethnicity, ARE the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, literally the overcomers for God, His chosen ones.
1 Peter 2:9-10
Thinking that the Jewish people will receive redemption after they pass thru the Great tribulation, is just a construct of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory. It isn't supported by scripture. We are plainly told that only a remnant of the Jews will survive the forthcoming Day of the Lord's wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 10:18, +
Romans 11:26 refers to all of Israel, of which the Jews are only a small part and now it is all the faithful Christians who are the Overcomers, as seen in each of the seven churches of Revelation.
 
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Since Christ will "descend" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and the words "we" and "sleep" in 1Thessalonians 5:10 connect chapter 5 to the event at the end of chapter 4, there is no trip back to heaven in the passage.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.


1Th 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.


You must import a trip to heaven from another passage to make your doctrine work.



.

OOOPS.................................. so much for we sleep.

1 Thes 5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
 
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Let us hear no more nonsense about any 'replacement'.

Bravo, I'm with you Keras. It is complete nonsense that the Church has replaced Israel as that would mean God was not keeping his word.

It's puzzling why there are those that don't believe what God clearly says in his word. Israel is Israel and the Church is the Church. After the church has been been caught up in the pretribulation rapture, Israel will become jealous and seek the truth of the Messiah.

Those that believe that the Church has replaced Israel are following a cultic belief. It about time someone stood up and said this is nonsense. Bravo!!!!!!!!
 
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Bravo, I'm with you Keras. It is complete nonsense that the Church has replaced Israel as that would mean God was not keeping his word.
Just so as there is no confusion: I adamantly oppose the belief of Two People, Two Promises. There is and has always been, only one people of God. His believers, who keep the Commandments. The whole Israelite peoples never were 100% godly, in fact in Elijah's time, only 7000 remained faithful to God.
Now, we Gentile Christians are grafted into the Israel of God by our faith in Jesus.

The real nonsense is the 'rapture to heaven' theory, that must have an Israel on earth, while the Church skives off to heaven. This idea is not Biblical, logical or even sensible and cannot happen.
 
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The real nonsense is the 'rapture to heaven' theory, that must have an Israel on earth, while the Church skives off to heaven. This idea is not Biblical, logical or even sensible and cannot happen.
Keras , you should actually think about things - In OT times God told Israel that they did not need a king on earth because HE IS their king- but they wanted a king on earth since Israel like you thought they knew better than God , the Almighty tried to tell them they should just accept HIM as their King , but he gave them what they thought was better to show them how wrong they were , king after human king they had and when the Messiah whom they were looking for had arrived they were so convinced that they were right and Jesus was wrong that they killed the very person they had been waiting for. Your insistence in your folly you may very well receive that which you insist must be - living through the GT which you will then be wishing you had not been so stiff necked about it
IF you actually study what the GT is really like you should see that it is NOT meant for people that have accepted Jesus as Lord and savoir ,
The real nonsense is thinking you have to go through a time that Jesus says you do not have to go through - but if you insist on it you can as you wish ;)
 
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BABerean2

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OOOPS.................................. so much for we sleep.

1 Thes 5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

We have been down this road before.

You are making a case on a plural in the English, that does not exist in the Greek.



(KJV+) ButG1161 ofG4012 theG3588 timesG5550 andG2532 theG3588 seasons,G2540 brethren,G80 ye haveG2192 noG3756 needG5532 that I writeG1125 unto you.G5213

G5550
χρόνος
chronos
khron'-os
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.
Total KJV occurrences: 53


G2540
καιρός
kairos
kahee-ros'
Of uncertain affinity; an occasion, that is, set or proper time: - X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare G5550.
Total KJV occurrences: 86

Is the English letter "s" the foundation that your doctrine is built upon?

If it is... "OOOPS" would be an appropriate term.


Once a person comes to understand that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


.
 
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jerry kelso

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Thanks for the birthday blessings, Jerry!



"All the promises" means everything, including the KoH. It excludes nothing.



Hebrews 1:2 is the immediate context. It is reconfirmed in verse 3:
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

All of these verses exclude nothing. They include all. The context is all.

If these verses had used the word "some" instead of "all", you would certainly and correctly argue that they support your claims.

But they don't. It's not "some". It's "all".

Here's a lot more all:

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

Acts 13
29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.



I agree that it's talking about sinners and saints, so I used the figure of viewing through a lens. Believers are not immune to the occasional failings of natural man, and they're not immune to the occasional perspectives of natural man.



The Church is a spiritual nation distinguished by faith and obedience. What distinguishes the physical nation of Israel to which you refer?



Spiritually, the inward Jew is a Jew; the outward Jew is not; and the inward Jew is the only Jew who will experience any kingdom blessings, as he is the only one who is circumsized in heart, and whose praise is of God.


jgr,

1. You are wrong in your usage of all because all those scriptures are about the finished work of Christ on the cross.
You have no proof of scripture, just conjecture and opinion.

2. The Luke passage was all that the prophets said about his Messianic concerning the death, burial and resurrection.
If he mentioned the KoH message Jesus didn’t explain it very well or else they were really lacking comprehension skills. Why? Because after this and before his ascension the disciples asked Jesus will you at this time restore the Kingdom which was the KoH and he said it is not for you to know the times and seasons which only the Father knew anyway.
The KoH program is connected with the Jews earthly calling and the restoration of all things at the time of the millennial kingdom and nature will be restored Read the book of Joel.

3. Let me ask you some questions.
Do you think the church will have: 1. A real physical Jewish nation that is backslidden and has to be reunited together called Israel and Judah to become one stick?
2. Land in Israel?
3. The real Throne in Israel, real Jewish capital of the earth called Jerusalem where the civil law will go forth out of Zion?
4. Will the church have a King over the twelve tribes of physical Israel with a a Jewish King named David or the twelve Jewish apostles rule over?
5. Will the church have their physical children and children’s children inherit their family land forever?
Answer these questions then we can talk. Jerry Kelso
 
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I know this may seem like a silly question... But I have to ask due to all the differing opinions out there on when the rapture will take place.

First, I'd like to state that I am operating based off the assumption that the rapture of the Church occurs at the 7th trumpet blast.

Who out there shares that viewpoint, and why? I'm very interested in this. You could say that this is a mid-trib rapture idea, and where I heard about this was at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO.

But Personally, like most believers, I'm not sure when the rapture will happen...

Anyway, make some good arguments for me! I'd love to indulge in some critical thinking here!
 
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