Examples of Sacred Tradition

Eloy Craft

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"the weight of Scriptural warrant, of substantiation in word and in power,
This obviously isn't enough to distinguish authentic development or those who practice it would be one faith.

i argued that rather than Paul did not teach that things were be fine if they had set up graven images of the True God to worship, he taught that the living God was not worshiped that way, since He is beyond this. People did not put faith in Christ because of his appearance, but by what He said and did.
I don't see anything in there that wasn't said to the Jews. This really highlights the universality of the Gospel message. Your attempt to make it something that it's not only robs it of it's Spirit. Plus he made converts. The pagan nations have already been converted btw. It's history of the Catholic Church. There really aren't any idols to smash anymore. I know you think the Catholics are the idolaters of the world but you are deceived.

Then Paul stood in front of the Areopagus and said, “Athenians, I see how extremely religious you are in every way. 23 For as I went through the city and looked carefully at the objects of your worship, I found among them an altar with the inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. 26 From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said,

‘For we too are his offspring.’

29 Since we are God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of mortals. 30 While God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will have the world judged in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

32 When they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some scoffed; but others said, “We will hear you again about this.” 33 At that point Paul left them. 34 But some of them joined him and became believers, including Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.


Because the law and laws I refer to are NOT that of typological dietary and ritual laws which is what the NT states were "shadows" "imposed on them." "in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days, (Colossians 2:16) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. (Hebrews 9:10)
So, you say the only thing Jesus changed were laws governing lifestyle and social norms. Philosophers would call that accidental change. Do you know what it means to satisfy the demands of the Law? What event that would be the cause of? Paul taught that the power of sin is death. The Law increases the power of sin. The purpose of the Law was to show man that sin had dominion over him. This is much more than dietary laws. So, what happens when the Law is finally destroyed? Quite a change you're missing. The word reformed as a descriptive term for the fulfillment of the old covenant is new to me. It seems an odd meaning to attach to the Gospel since the Apostles descriptive word of the same is New.

You post scriptures to support your statements as if they are going to mean to me what they mean to you. Words are transitory, it's the concepts we attach to them that are not. You aren't grasping that so a sincere exchange of ideas is impossible.

Which simply does not change how the devil basically works, nor the flesh. A look at even history shows the devil seeking to reign via proxy servants by seducing souls with the victim-entitlement mentality employed in Gn. 3, and setting up graven images for souls to bow down and pray to or before. But because your church does it then you must impose a change upon how demons operate.
Not worth responding to because of the bolded.

No, actually my brain does not contain stone or porcelain or plastic images, but instead these graven (firmly fixed, carved, sculpted) images are set up right in and on your churches, inviting souls to worship before them. Thus your compelled recourse to "but demons have changes tactics."
The bolded is bias that dominates your ability to exchange matters of faith and religious ideas sincerely.

nd as said and showed, the NT manifests what changed, which was not the moral law, and thus we see the reiterations of OT moral laws. But nothing sanctioning your graven images, ir even setting up, exalting the [FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Mary of Catholicism,[/FONT] as a omnipotent ("by grace") demigoddess.

Your sophistry ignores the fact that the distinction is for the Hebrews was not simply that the true God was worshiped, but how, and thus, among other distinctions, there were not to make and set up representative graven images for people and even people to worship before, and which is nowhere abrogated under the New Covenant, in teaching or examples.
That isn't a distinction the how is still a tradition a priesthood a temple an oracle, it's fundamentally the same. Do you think Paul would teach them that his God is the true object of their worship if what you say were true? I bolded a statement of yours because you missed the point of Paul's attraction to the worship of this god. An unknown god is by definition a god with no 'graven images'. So He wasn't giving them commands to obey. That isn't a good approach to conversion. He was taking advantage of a likeness to true worship they were already doing. Basically he was using something they all agree on to persuade. Confirmation bias got the best of you.

Actually the people of God are taking their homeland of milk and honey away from peoples and nations who thought it was theirs, since the meek shall inherit the earth, and "the god of this world" presumes it is his, and thus do the rebellious, and at the end the devil will "gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea... on the breadth of the earth" against the people of God. (Revelation 20:8,9) But since you reject that prophecy as literal you will be in for a real surprise.
are they mutually exclusive? I believe both material and spiritual are united as one. You are the either or thinker not me. The surprise will be on you since you and the world are in agreement about who the enemy is right now.

Which is just what prohomosexual polemicists try to argue, but the fact is the moral laws are transcendent and universal.
no, the Divine law transcends the natural law, those two are immutable. The moral law is part inherent and part learned and conformed to the laws above it because of our fallen state. The prohomosexual polemists violate the natural law.

That only applies to how the church is to treat such as not being a theocracy (contrary to your history), not to the lawfulness of what they do. idolatry, homosexual relations, etc. are still sinful, even though the church is not to execute them. Thus your argument is invalid.
You think Jesus is ok with the Church taking up arms and going to war with a pagan nation? Because they're pagan?
That is your argument for this?
Eloy Craft:
Before Jesus it was a time to conquer and wipe out the idolatrous people and the memory of the creatures they worship. Now we want to bring Christ's Gospel of love to them.

Actually the problem is your unwillingness to be convinced.
[/QUOTE]Pot meet Kettle.
 
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narnia59

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Hi; so for example, if Scripture tells us: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2.5) and then some ecclesiastical authorities tell us something different, who are we to trust?
I don't know, I've never had to worry about that. The Catholic catechism quotes that passage, the church upholds that Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man, so I've not had to worry about it.
 
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faroukfarouk

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I don't know, I've never had to worry about that. The Catholic catechism quotes that passage, the church upholds that Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man, so I've not had to worry about it.
I myself am very concerned about what I trust for eternity, about Whose work I am relying on.
 
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narnia59

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I myself am very concerned about what I trust for eternity, about Whose work I am relying on.
I am too. But I am comforted that Christ did not leave us without shepherd to guide and teach, who received that authority directly from him.
 
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faroukfarouk

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I am too. But I am comforted that Christ did not leave us without shepherd to guide and teach, who received that authority directly from him.
I do love the verses about the Great Shepherd of the sheep: "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13.20-21)
 
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narnia59

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I do love the verses about the Great Shepherd of the sheep: "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13.20-21)
I do too. I also love those references to those shepherds he left behind. Like when he instructs Peter to feed and tend his sheep (John 21:15-19). Or when Peter exhorts his fellow elders to "tend the flock of God that is in their charge" (1 Peter 5:2). Or when Paul tells the elders in Ephesus in Acts 20:28 "Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God".
 
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4x4toy

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As followers of Christ we are certainly empowered to do many things. That doesn't negate all the Scripture that speaks to the governing and teaching office held by the apostles. We are also exhorted as belivers to "Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you." (Hebrews 13:17).

Yes I respect my elders and 1 Timothy 3 is the scriptural standard .. I am an elder in Christ to many and I don't even belong to an organized church and I've lead many to Christ and guided but only until they are weaned then they have their own responsibility to take up their mat and walk themselves their own walk and find a church God leads them to .. It is between God and them but I stress the freedom Jesus gives us ..
 
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faroukfarouk

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I do too. I also love those references to those shepherds he left behind. Like when he instructs Peter to feed and tend his sheep (John 21:15-19). Or when Peter exhorts his fellow elders to "tend the flock of God that is in their charge" (1 Peter 5:2). Or when Paul tells the elders in Ephesus in Acts 20:28 "Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God".
Another one is 'fellowhelpers to the truth' (3 John 8).
 
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narnia59

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Yes I respect my elders and 1 Timothy 3 is the scriptural standard .. I am an elder in Christ to many and I don't even belong to an organized church and I've lead many to Christ and guided but only until they are weaned then they have their own responsibility to take up their mat and walk themselves their own walk and find a church God leads them to .. It is between God and them but I stress the freedom Jesus gives us ..
We have a different view of things. I believe Christ himself placed those in authority he chose, and they in turn with great care chose those who would succeed them. That is quite evident to me when I read Paul's letters to Timothy for example. I find that true freedom comes from being able to rest knowing that Christ took care of that. I don't think that negates the role that we all have to evangelize and to lead others to Christ. I just don't think I can claim the type of authority given to the apostles to command, discipline, teach with the authority of Christ etc.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Yes I respect my elders and 1 Timothy 3 is the scriptural standard .. I am an elder in Christ to many and I don't even belong to an organized church and I've lead many to Christ and guided but only until they are weaned then they have their own responsibility to take up their mat and walk themselves their own walk and find a church God leads them to .. It is between God and them but I stress the freedom Jesus gives us ..
At what point have you decided they are weaned? I have heard that the responsibility of an elder is to lead them (any responsibility you have begun) to the throne of grace in white robes. I believe it was Charles Swindle that taught that. To me that would mean giving a clear view of the path that leads to reconciliation with the Father, thru Jesus Christ in His resurected power.
 
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narnia59

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Another one is 'fellowhelpers to the truth' (3 John 8).
I'm not sure of the exact point you are making? That verse seems to me to be referring those who have taken a role of service to those who are called to lead the church. Just as we support our leaders so they can be free to do the work of God.

In the very next verse John speaks very firmly of his own authority as an apostle and has some very strong disciplinary words for those who refuse to acknowledge it.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Actually the problem is your unwillingness to be convinced
your statement below is the problem in reality. That is a dishonest presentation of what I meant. The sad thing I've come to realize is, that you know it is. Your argument is riddled with this kind of fallacy and many others. That reduces this discussion to an exercise of futility.

Eloy Craft:
It's an image graven (firmly fixed, carved, sculpted) deeply in the recesses of your mind.

No, actually my brain does not contain stone or porcelain or plastic images,
I wouldn't even imply such a thing. Peace
 
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faroukfarouk

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I'm not sure of the exact point you are making? That verse seems to me to be referring those who have taken a role of service to those who are called to lead the church. Just as we support our leaders so they can be free to do the work of God.

In the very next verse John speaks very firmly of his own authority as an apostle and has some very strong disciplinary words for those who refuse to acknowledge it.
I'm suggesting that we all need to search for the truth in the Scriptures and that others are guides as they help us to find it, rather than expect simple, blind acceptance of what they claim is authority. Another great verse is from the Lord Jesus: 'Thy word is truth' (John 17.17).

To some extent we may be talking cross-purposes because we may not be using words in the same way.
 
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narnia59

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I'm suggesting that we all need to search for the truth in the Scriptures and that others are guides as they help us to find it, rather than expect simple, blind acceptance of what they claim is authority. Another great verse is from the Lord Jesus: 'Thy word is truth' (John 17.17).

To some extent we may be talking cross-purposes because we may not be using words in the same way.
We may not be using words in the same way, because just because he Bible refers to 'the word' I do not equate that to being Scripture (or at least Scripture alone). For example, in this passage the word used there is "logos", the Word John tells us became flesh. Jesus has just told his apostles that He is the truth (John 14:6). The verse you cite is part of his prayer to the Father. " 17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth."

He is speaking of himself. He is the logos, the Truth. He is praying to the Father that his apostles may be sanctified in him. He is the truth the Father has sent into the world, and they will be the truth he sends into the world. He consecrates himself for their sake so they may be consecrated in the truth -- Him.

Another great verse about the truth is that the church is the "pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).
 
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faroukfarouk

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We may not be using words in the same way, because just because he Bible refers to 'the word' I do not equate that to being Scripture (or at least Scripture alone). For example, in this passage the word used there is "logos", the Word John tells us became flesh. Jesus has just told his apostles that He is the truth (John 14:6). The verse you cite is part of his prayer to the Father. " 17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth."

He is speaking of himself. He is the logos, the Truth. He is praying to the Father that his apostles may be sanctified in him. He is the truth the Father has sent into the world, and they will be the truth he sends into the world. He consecrates himself for their sake so they may be consecrated in the truth -- Him.

Another great verse about the truth is that the church is the "pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).
I do think that where the Word of God is mentioned it can't be seen ever as contradictory to our knowledge of the Person and Work of Christ. Psalm 119.89 says: "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven."
 
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4x4toy

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We have a different view of things. I believe Christ himself placed those in authority he chose, and they in turn with great care chose those who would succeed them. That is quite evident to me when I read Paul's letters to Timothy for example. I find that true freedom comes from being able to rest knowing that Christ took care of that. I don't think that negates the role that we all have to evangelize and to lead others to Christ. I just don't think I can claim the type of authority given to the apostles to command, discipline, teach with the authority of Christ etc.
What appeals to me is the freedom from being burdened down , before I got saved I felt I had a standard to live up to in the ways of the world to be accepted of men , as a Christian I had certain folks who tried to put me back in bondage that they could burden me down with their way and rituals Matthew 11:29-30 .. We have had umpteen generations in 2000 years .. Who knows how many wolves in sheeps clothing .. But also many , many true shepherds .. That is why the Word remains the most important thing we have to ground us along with love ..
 
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faroukfarouk

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I would add to that, John warns of false teachers who would lead the flock astray. His answer to that was to listen to the apostles.
...but we do need to check out what all religious leaders say against what the Scriptures say. The Lord Jesus strongly exhorts His followers to seek after the Word, which is the chosen means of sanctification (John 17.17a).
 
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Eloy Craft

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rather than expect simple, blind acceptance of what they claim is authority. Another great verse is from the Lord Jesus: 'Thy word is truth' (John 17.17).
But that is the kind of authority Jesus established on earth. I'm sure you would blindly accept Jesus' authority

Luke: 10

“Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
 
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narnia59

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I do think that where the Word of God is mentioned it can't be seen ever as contradictory to our knowledge of the Person and Work of Christ. Psalm 119.89 says: "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven."
And Christ also tells the apostles that "he who receives you receives me". We can't see the authority that Christ establishes in His church as being contradictory to our knowledge of the Person and Work of Christ either....
 
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